Teppos

[R'as al Ghul]

Hello,

I thought we could collect our knowledge about Teppo units in this thread.
Recently, CBR held a little lecture on how to use them correctly which was very revealing.

The teppo units are used regularly in Multiplayer, 4-5 units are standard and form the skirmish line.
One can go without and replace them with Samurai Archers but it can be considered costly to have your
SamArchers shot by 100 or 200 Koku cheaper Teppos.

What was news to me and others is the fact that Teppos can be used to fire one volley from all soldiers.
The normal use is to deploy them in three ranks to get (almost) constant revolving fire. When deployed in three ranks, only the first rank fires. That's one third of the fire power.

If "Fire at will" is switched off and the unit is deployed in two ranks, you can manually fire a powerful two-rank volley. While 1/3 of the unit's firepower is suffice to reduce the morale of units crossing the nomansland, the full volley can rout units instantly due to the high number of kills and the morale penalty from being hit by a gunpowder unit.



R'as

[R'as al Ghul]

After watching two replays I've noticed that my teppo line is often shot to pieces by the enemy. One of those replays has a flat terrain and the other only minimal height advantage.
Is there a special tactic to cause more casualties by, say aiming one enemy unit with two own units? I'd imagine that by shooting at one enemy unit with two of yours that the enemy's unit would loose soldiers faster while there's another enemy unit in the line that's not being shot at at all. So I've a hard time understanding why my line was reduced to about a third while the enemy's line was quite healthy.

R'as

[Puzz3D]

After watching two replays I've noticed that my teppo line is often shot to pieces by the enemy. One of those replays has a flat terrain and the other only minimal height advantage. Is there a special tactic to cause more casualties by, say aiming one enemy unit with two own units? I'd imagine that by shooting at one enemy unit with two of yours that the enemy's unit would loose soldiers faster while there's another enemy unit in the line that's not being shot at at all. So I've a hard time understanding why my line was reduced to about a third while the enemy's line was quite healthy.

The unit that volleys first can gain a considerable advantage over the course of many volleys if that first volley gets a lot of kills. The advantage mushrooms because the unit that fired first is firing larger volleys than it's receiving on every subsequent volley.

A little archer support in an otherwise even gun skirmish can tip the scales dramatically especially if several archers target a single gun unit, reduce it and then target another gun unit. If you use this archer support strategy, you have to use the gun advantage gained to good effect to compensate for the money spent on the archers.

Enfilade fire gets more kills which is something to consider as well.

If you fall behind in the gun skirmish, switching to loose formation will minimize further losses. You can also experiment with using loose formation at the start of the skirmish.

As a gun unit tires some of the men will take longer to reload, so you'll start seeing partial volleys. The reload time is 21 seconds. Rotating 3 rank firing produces a volley every 7 seconds. Going to more than 3 ranks doesn't decrease this time, but it does decrease the number of men in the first rank who will be shooting and exposes the unit to more secondary hits from enemy fire.

Test I've done in STW indicate skirmishing in 3 ranks is more effective than in 2 ranks, but using the fire-at-will = off followed by fire-at-will = on to unlease an immediate first volley can be effective as well. Later in the game using this technique to fire a volley at close range is highly effective since most units have reduced morale by then.

In MTW, the density of the trees was reduced relative to STW, but the range of concealment they provide was not reduced. This leads to the phenomenon that you may not be able to target a unit with guns that is near the edge of the trees eventhough they appear to be outside the tree line. Archers can shoot into trees.

Guns are more limited than archers in the vertical elevation at which they can fire. This is something to consider when attacking high ground because moving in closer can put guns in a position where they can't shoot if the hill is steep.

In general, ranged units should be used in loose formation when skirmish against higher ground otherwise you will loose the skirmish quickly.

Guns can get backkills for a considerable distance behind the target unit. Since the trajectory is a shallow arc, this backkill distance is increased when the target is on higher ground. For units on a reverse slope to be protected from backkills, the reverse slope has to be fairly steep. A small rise or ridge will not provide protection from backkills if you have units up on the ridge which can be targetted by guns. If you want to use infantry to protect ranged units, one technique is to place the anti-cav infantry inbetween the ranged units although that does expose them to being fired at directly.

[R'as al Ghul]

Very informative. Thanks, Yuuki.

In MTW, the density of the trees was reduced relative to STW, but the range of concealment they provide was not reduced. This leads to the phenomenon that you may not be able to target a unit with guns that is near the edge of the trees eventhough they appear to be outside the tree line. Archers can shoot into trees.

I've had that in one of the last games.
I wasn't able to target the unit but they were able to shoot out of the trees. Quite irritating, but then it's also realistic. It should be easier to shoot out of the tree cover than into the trees.

[Tomisama]

The unit that volleys first can gain a considerable advantage over the course of many volleys if that first volley gets a lot of kills. The advantage mushrooms because the unit that fired first is firing larger volleys than it's receiving on every subsequent volley.

Just to be perfectly clear.

Is this correct?

This dual gun line only fires the first volley all at one time, only once*. Then, even though they are left in a two rank configuration, subsequent volleys will return to one third active. And that the “advantage mushrooms” because the initial kills reduces the enemy’s ability to respond. That the advantage is then advanced over time, as the initial numerical imbalance continues to be magnified.

Also that the first volley salvo can be revisited by toggling fire-at –will?

Have i got it right

Edit: *Does this happen automatically, or is this only activated by a fire-at-will toggle?

[R'as al Ghul]

This dual gun line only fires the first volley all at one time, only once.

If you switch to Fire-at-will=on the unit will switch ranks and only one rank will fire with 1/2 the strength of the unit while the second rank reloads.

Does this happen automatically, or is this only activated by fire-at-will?

Only when fire-at-will=off and waiting for the individual soldiers to reload until every man has reloaded can you produce a full rank fire from both ranks.

Then, even though they are left in a two rank configuration, subsequent volleys will return to one third active.

No, when deployed in two ranks the unit will use 1/2 of its soldiers to fire. Although this volleys are more powerful, reload time is longer than with 3 ranks and during the time you need to reload you'll take casualties from opposing 3 rank fire.

And that the “advantage mushrooms” because the initial kills reduces the enemy’s ability to respond. That the advantage is then advanced over time, as the initial numerical imbalance continues to be magnified.

Correct. Which brings up a question.
What's better, to stand with your unit (fire-at-will=on) and wait for the enemy to come in range, or order your unit to target the enemy while he's not in range, thereby making your own unit walk towards the point when the unit comes into range?
Normally I'd guess that waiting is better but sometimes I have units that are in range and have fire-at-will=on but they don't do anything.

[Tomisama]

No, when deployed in two ranks the unit will use 1/2 of its soldiers to fire. Although this volleys are more powerful, reload time is longer than with 3 ranks and during the time you need to reload you'll take casualties from opposing 3 rank fire.

Hmmm. Time for each man to reload should not very from 3 to 2 or even 1 rank. Not good

[Nakamura Lobato]

Hello,

There is an interesting discussion going on here: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=112666

about the Teppo. I thought it might either add to your depiction of the Teppo or even enhance the discussion.

I have totally reconsidered my position about guns and the samurai due to your historical depiction.

I have reloaded Samurai Warlords and am delighted to play the game again. It is wonderful. I look forward to future releases with relish. The latest incarnation is great.

While it is abhorrent for me to think about as a Christian, the inquisitor character could be used in Samurai Warlords as a historical device for reducing Christians in the Japanese provinces. There were waves of anti-Christian sentiment and crucifixions in Japan at the time, and the inquisitor could be used to reduce Christians to increase loyalty in certain areas. Naturally some daimyo were Christian, and also had guns as a result so, a way to tie it in.

Naka

[R'as al Ghul]

Hi Nakamura,

I hope you don't mind my merging your post with this older thread.

[Tomisama]

Hello,

There is an interesting discussion going on here: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=112666

I had two posts on the above thread, and was about to follow up with more information requested by one of the other posters, and found my posts have been removed. My ID has disapeared, and I can't login.

I have sent an email to Admin, but in any event wont return there

[Puzz3D]

I had two posts on the above thread, and was about to follow up with more information requested by one of the other posters, and found my posts have been removed. My ID has disapeared, and I can't login.

I have sent an email to Admin, but in any event wont return there

I noticed that Tomi, and that has stopped me from posing to that thread.

[Tomisama]

I have sent an email to Admin, but in any event wont return there

The whole thing was very strange indeed, but apparently not the work of an individual. I received the following email today.

See announcement here:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/annou....php?f=9&a=124 . You will
have to take a few minutes to recreate your account at
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/register.php . Sorry.

So I guess it’s ok?

Very strange though, very strange