Damn the medieval popes

[Mystic]

damn them! ... im playing an expert campaign as the french and im getting attacked by the swiss the germans the english the spanish and the italions .. i can handle that but the damn pope (who happens to be my ally) keeps excommunicating me and launching crusades. what is wrong with them all ! i can only take on so many at a time this is killing me does the pope get on everyone elses nerves as much as mine?

[Vladimir]

Kill him.

[Derfasciti]

I've only played Normal campaigns so my knowledge on how he acts on other difficulties is very limited. However, I suggest you make peace with a couple of factions ASAP and then concentrate on taking out the Pope and preparing for his eventual re-emergence.

[Agent Miles]

When the Pope asks you to stop attacking a Catholic faction for ten years, then do so. You may now attack any and all other Catholic factions with impunity. If you already got excommunicated, just assassinate the Pope. Destroying the Pope "faction" is a bad idea. He re-emerges with a big army (or so I am told). I always concentrate on the non-Catholic factions. It's safer.

[LegioScythia]

Send assassins until the guy loses it assassination is the best way of getting rid of the pesky pope

[Martok]

Send assassins until the guy loses it assassination is the best way of getting rid of the pesky pope

I've discovered that a nice alternative is to burn him at the stake with a Grand Iniquisitor. The GI won't die if he fails, plus I find the thought of the Pope being convicted of heresy deliciously ironic.

Otherwise Mystic, I would recommend taking Agent Miles' advice. Pick one Catholic faction to attack to draw the Pope's warning, and then you're free to war with the other Catholic factions for the next decade without worry. I know some MTW players find said tactic to be an exploit--and in all fairness they would be correct--but I personally am quite okay with that, given how unbalanced/unfair the Pope often is in regards to excommunications.

[LegioScythia]

I've discovered that a nice alternative is to burn him at the stake with a Grand Iniquisitor. The GI won't die if he fails, plus I find the thought of the Pope being convicted of heresy deliciously ironic.

Otherwise Mystic, I would recommend taking Agent Miles' advice. Pick one Catholic faction to attack to draw the Pope's warning, and then you're free to war with the other Catholic factions for the next decade without worry. I know some MTW players find said tactic to be an exploit--and in all fairness they would be correct--but I personally am quite okay with that, given how unbalanced/unfair the Pope often is in regards to excommunications.

Nice tip didn't know you could do that but executing the pope for heresy sounds kind of weird

[Martok]

Nice tip didn't know you could do that but executing the pope for heresy sounds kind of weird

I confess I didn't know myself that you could do that until about a year ago--I'd always tried using regular Inquisitors to try the Pope for heresy, but with no success. It wasn't until I happened to run across a post here sometime last year that I discovered you could fry the Pope using *Grand* Inquisitors. Since then, I've been merrily burning his Holiness and haven't looked back!

(Although it's still sometimes fun to just march into Rome & the Papal States and lay the smackdown on him. )

[Mystic]

whats making me mad is the fact they are attacking me! on my lands i was fighting to keep toulhouse and he warned me... im catching hell for defending my country. and i dont have the military to even make it near him and no assassins strong enough. this is bad . really bad :(

[Martok]

Well you always have the choice of sending your king on a suicide mission, thus cancelling out your excommunication. That's a drastic measure to take, however, and I would attempt it only if you're truly desparate.

Is there anywhere you can train Grand Inquisitors, Mystic? I ask because I think they could really help you out right now. Just one or two of those guys could make the Pope go away faster than you can say "witchcraft"!

[bamff]

Have to confess, I have only ever tried the assassination and invasion methods....but I like the GI idea....can't wait to try it out for myself. Last campaign (as Sicily) I had heaps of 5 and above star GI's roaming Europe burning everyone and everything....but I never tried crispy-ing up the Pope....

[Calgacus]

I wonder...wouldn't killing the pope generate some fairly negative characteristics for the general in charge of the conquering army? I mean 'Pope-killer' must have been a pretty serious vice in medieval Europe; even now it's probably not the best route to making friends and influencing people. I haven't quite got my head around the full ramifications of the vice/virtue system in MTW, but have noticed that when I've been excommunicated my generals' acumen and command ratings tend to nosedive after a few turns (maybe it's coincidence, maybe I just didn't read that manual closely enough).

Having said all that, 'Pope-killer' might be rather a good thing for your assassin - he could dine out on that for the rest of his career. I suppose what I'm trying to ask, in rather a drawn out way, is this: do any special vices/virtues develop as a result of bumping off the supreme pontiff, which don't occur when other world leaders get the grassy-knoll treatment?

Any advice gratefully received...

[Kavhan Isbul]

No special vices and virtues for getting rid of the damn Pope. Not only that, but your assassin may not even get a star, as the Pope is easy to assassinate. Since my 5 star GIs have 0% chance to burn the Pope, and my 3 star assassins get a 50% chance, I prefer the latter.

[bamff]

Analysis of kill probabilities noted - thanks Kavhan....another point of curiousity - it appears that even if you send an army of inquisitors against one specific faction, they never take offence....why is this? Is it that they are assuming that the state has no power over the church and that these inquisitors are therefore operating independently to fry all of their generals?

[Alexios]

I've discovered that a nice alternative is to burn him at the stake with a Grand Iniquisitor. The GI won't die if he fails, plus I find the thought of the Pope being convicted of heresy deliciously ironic.

Whow! This is ironic, to say the least! I've got to try this one when I get back to my campaign. I'm reaching the final stages on World Conq. mode and I'm saving the best for last (i.e., the Pope). It may be more interesting to see him burn at the stake rather than die in battle... BOWAHAHAHA!!!

It would be even more interesting to learn the details of the heresay charges - perhaps similar to those negative vice and virtues your generals get on occasion: "He seems to prefer the company of young boys rather than beautiful women."

[Martok]

First off, welcome the Org Calgacus. As Kavhan already said, there's no specific vices/virtues attached to assassinating the Pope....which I admit I find unfortunate from a gameplay persective.

As for vices & virtues in general, probably the main reason they're hard to understand is that they're not all applied in the same way. Some are applied randomly (such as Silver-Toungued, Killer Instinct, or Sybarite), whereas others (such as Scant Mercy, Skilled Risky Attacks, and Great Builder) are a direct result of your king/prince/general's actions. The trick is to figure out which ones are which.

Analysis of kill probabilities noted - thanks Kavhan....another point of curiousity - it appears that even if you send an army of inquisitors against one specific faction, they never take offence....why is this? Is it that they are assuming that the state has no power over the church and that these inquisitors are therefore operating independently to fry all of their generals?

I think you've pretty much nailed it, bamff. It's always been my impression that factions don't react to inquisitors since they're church officials, and that (theoretically, at least) they're not under the control of a monarch.

I wish that actually was the case, as Inquisitors in the hands of other factions are simply overpowered--even more so when they're from my faction. (I admit I find the fact that Medieval 2 is restricting them to just the Papacy to be an improvement.) As it is, I try not to train more than a handful of them, including Grand Inquisitors. They're almost unstoppable once they've got a couple heresy convictions under their belt.

A general note on using GI's to burn the Pope: Even with Grand Inquisitors, it's going to be hard to convict the Pope of heresy if they're rookies--their odds will be greatly helped if they have at least a couple stars first.

[Kavhan Isbul]

Well, I have two grand inquisitors - training more I find ubnfair, and I do not need more - thanks to inquisitors there are only two catholic factions left in my current campaign, not counting myslef and the Pope. One of my inquisitors has three stars, the other 5, and he already burnt several princes and at least three kings. When I try to use them on the Pope, who excommunicated me btw (which does not bother me that much), they get a 0% chance. I know that they are not going to do anything on the first try, and the only result will be that the Pope will become devout or something like that, further decreasing the chance of burning him. i play MedMod, maybe Wes has done something on purpose there. Anyway, considering that his worthlessness has 0 stars, my assassins have much better chances, and I guess I will stick to them, even though I would have loved to see him burn.

Here is an off topic question. I had two of my heirs married to Danish princesses, and I was allied to the Danes. I used my GIs to burn all their princes and their king, and yet, when I did it, they became all rebel and I did not get a single province or an army stack. The same happened with the Sicilians - I had just married a heir to their only princess and after burning their royal line, they simply disintegrated into rebels. So the questions is, does inheriting only works if your current ruler is married to another faction's princess? And does it matter how the other faction is eliminated - do I need to just burn the heirs and leave the king to die naturally, i.e. does the use of agents such as GIs and Assassins diminish my chances to acquire lands through marriage?

Finally, using inquisitors and Grabnd Inquisitors usually leads to the Pope making a small donation to one's kingdom. He has done it even while excommunicating me at the same time, and I was not fighting and non-catholics presently. It does not happen often and all the time, suually once per game for that particular reason, but is a nice bonus if you are early in your campaign and you need cash.

[Martok]

Gah! My apologies, Kavhan; you made me realize I should've mentioned another point about using GI's to fry the Pope. As is sometimes the case with kings and generals, you may have to try the Pope more than once. I often find the first time I put someone trial for heresy--particularly if they have 4 piety or higher--they get that trait that adds more piety. ("Newly Devout", maybe? I forget what it's called.) The second time I try the target, he gets the Atheist vice, and his piety drops like a rock. By the time I make my 3rd attempt to convict my target of heresy, their piety is generally low enough that I'm successful.

The important thing to remember with heresy trials--and this applies no matter who the target is, or which type of Inquisitor you have (regular or Grand)--if at first you don't succeed, try again (and again, and again, and again....).

Of course, you'll always come across a few generals/kings/Popes in the game who manage to avoid the flames no matter how many times you try to burn them. The majority will succumb eventually if you keep at it, however. (Yet another reason I feel Inquisitors to be overpowered--there's no "double jeopardy" to prevent them trying the same character over and over.)

As far as Inquisitions being related to Papal handouts, I haven't notice anything specific. I still use Inqs and GI's relatively sparingly, though, so it may be that it simply hasn't happened to me often enough to notice a correlation.

So the questions is, does inheriting only works if your current ruler is married to another faction's princess?

That's long been my suspicion, but I would be lying if I said I'd been able to prove it. I freely confess that while I have inherited other factions' lands, it still happens so relatively seldom that I never remember to keep track of whether the now-dead faction's princess was married to my king or to one of my sons.

And does it matter how the other faction is eliminated - do I need to just burn the heirs and leave the king to die naturally, i.e. does the use of agents such as GIs and Assassins diminish my chances to acquire lands through marriage?

As long as you don't eliminate another faction's rulers with the sword (i.e., going to war with them), you have a chance of inheriting their lands once their family dies out. So you can use assassins and GI's to your heart's content.

[bamff]

Another random thought on upsetting or unsettling the Pope....honestly, I'm not obsessed!

We have discussed attacking him, assassinating him, trying him for heresy - but how about sending spies in to unsettle his flock and spark rebellion? My own experience with spies seeking out the "dirt" on opposing governors/faction leaders has always been that spies are pretty useless. What sort of valour would a spy need to be useful against the Pope?

Just covering all the agent bases (or trying to at any rate).

[Calgacus]

Thanks for the welcome, Martok, and for Kavhan's helpful reply. This thread has certainly made a few issues clearer. MTW has made me very suspicious; I always imagine that the AI is doing something extraordinarily crafty to undermine me, so I'm glad to hear that the Pope can be got at with (relative) impunity.

I seem to remember from the one time I set the Papacy as a playable faction that the game was a bit buggy. Does anyone know of a patch/code/other which has made playing the Pope a more stable?

Cheers.

[gaijinalways]

I am doing that in my current campaign, though the pope has a decent army now and is my enemy (after trying to attack me). It's around 1340 (have to replay, buggy file). The Spanish decided to attack me, I spanked one province and got a warning.

The spies help in keeping his land unsettled so that he will be less likley to try and attack me once I lay off the Spanish for a while.

[macsen rufus]

I've never been able to get Papal lands down below about 90% loyalty, even with my meanest nastiest spy, no watchtowers, no papal counter-agents, assassinations every few years AND a full-blown inquisition happening. It takes a lot to make the Pope's subjects unhappy. Any other faction suffering that onslaught would have rebelled into civil war every year...

[Kavhan Isbul]

I've never been able to get Papal lands down below about 90% loyalty, even with my meanest nastiest spy, no watchtowers, no papal counter-agents, assassinations every few years AND a full-blown inquisition happening. It takes a lot to make the Pope's subjects unhappy. Any other faction suffering that onslaught would have rebelled into civil war every year...

I concur - even with 2 points of influence the bugger seems to keep his subjects happy. I should try invading his lands with spies and high valor alims or Orthodox bishops (and maybe even pagan shamans in a mod) just to see if I can change the religion in Rome and thus spark some discontent. I very much doubt this will work though. In the BKB mod the Bulgarians (and perhaps a few other Balkan Orthodox factions) could build Heretic Priests (Bogomils), but they had absolutely no effect whatsoever.

[The Grand Inquisitor]

One factor that hasn't been mentioned in heresy trials is the province zeal. The higher the zeal is the easier it is to succeed. One consequence of conducting a trial with your inquisitors is to raise the zeal, thus making subsequent attempts more likely to succeed.

Also it doesn't take many attempts before the target gains the vice 'atheist' which reduces his faith trait, even if he has already gained the virtues 'devout' or 'god-fearing'.

Finally, the big disadvantage with assassins is that border forts and defensive agents catch them before they get to make their attempt.

[macsen rufus]

For the full Rufus(TM) Pope-on-a-leash strategy, see this

[BrSpiritus]

I've only suceeded in burning the pope once and that was with a 4 star GI. In my current campaign I'm playing the Byz for the first time. Definately is nice to be free from the pesky pope BS. I've succeded in knocking the pope faction off 4 times now... actually it's about time for him to reemerge again. Yes he always shows up with huge armies but I have such a inconnected network in my empire that an army in Georgia can be in Naples in one move. The trick it leave simple units to hold down Rome, he reappears jump on him with everything you can muster.

[Martok]

It also helps to keep only a minimal garrison in Rome & the Papal States. The size of the Pope's re-emergence armies is partially dependent on the size of the garrison stationed in the province where he reappears. (And in truth, that applies to pretty much all rebellions & re-emergences in the game, not just the Pope.)

So if you keep only a modest garrison when the Pope re-emerges, you can simply retreat to the castle and then move in your main army from right next door.

[Kavhan Isbul]

It also helps to keep only a minimal garrison in Rome & the Papal States. The size of the Pope's re-emergence armies is partially dependent on the size of the garrison stationed in the province where he reappears. (And in truth, that applies to pretty much all rebellions & re-emergences in the game, not just the Pope.)

So if you keep only a modest garrison when the Pope re-emerges, you can simply retreat to the castle and then move in your main army from right next door.

Yes, but in this case you have to fight an offensive battle rather than a defensive one, which is usually easier.
An off-topic question: does the amount of troops kept in Khazar around 1230 have a direct effect on the numbers of the Horde, or is it always a standard one? Also, has anyone figured out what causes the Horde toa appear in two or three provinces instead of just Khazar?

[Martok]

Yes, but in this case you have to fight an offensive battle rather than a defensive one, which is usually easier.

I suppose that's true. I guess I just have a personal preference for crushing the Pope in an offensive action (as opposed to a defensive one).

An off-topic question: does the amount of troops kept in Khazar around 1230 have a direct effect on the numbers of the Horde, or is it always a standard one?

Depends. If you have vanilla MTW, the size of the Horde is more or less the same size every time.

If you have MTW/VI, however, then yes, the size of the GH is definitely affected by the size of your garrison. So don't do what I did the first time playing VI, which was to stick 8000 troops in Khazar--I got a Horde appearance of over 36,000 men. (Whoops!)

Also, has anyone figured out what causes the Horde toa appear in two or three provinces instead of just Khazar?

No idea. If anyone has, I don't think they're talking.

[BrSpiritus]

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