Is there any rhyme or reason to diplomacy AI?

[Amon_Zeth]

I've had to stop yet another campaign because of the diplomacy AI, which seems utterly determined to attack me at random with little warning. For a while I thought having strong garrisons would deter any attacks by other factions. For a while, this worked, but at enormous expense, as those fleets and armies just love to keep my treasury nice and low. Then, all of a sudden, Sicily and Hungary attacked me for no reason, plunging my treasury into mega-debt, and, myself already at war with the Byzantines, I was forced into a very compromised position. Hence, the termination of my last campaign.

Is there any way to keep afloat in the campaign map, or am I doomed to being forced to fight a capricious AI no matter what?

[Grifman]

I've had to stop yet another campaign because of the diplomacy AI, which seems utterly determined to attack me at random with little warning. For a while I thought having strong garrisons would deter any attacks by other factions. For a while, this worked, but at enormous expense, as those fleets and armies just love to keep my treasury nice and low. Then, all of a sudden, Sicily and Hungary attacked me for no reason, plunging my treasury into mega-debt, and, myself already at war with the Byzantines, I was forced into a very compromised position. Hence, the termination of my last campaign.

Is there any way to keep afloat in the campaign map, or am I doomed to being forced to fight a capricious AI no matter what?

I think if you send them a little money every turn, say 50 per turn, that keeps them off your back. Or send them larger amounts every so often. It's cheaper than large garrisons :)

[shifty157]

Is there any way to keep afloat in the campaign map, or am I doomed to being forced to fight a capricious AI no matter what?

More or less. Its generally just better to stay on the offensive. That way you deny the AI the ability to make preparations to attack you. Plus conquering settlements can really boost your own treasury immediatly and then in the long run.

What i find really strange about the AI though is that sometimes they seem really angry when i offer them trade rights. I cant think of any reason to see this as an insult but sometimes the AI takes it as one. Am i the only one that finds this strange?

[IrishArmenian]

Hopefully in the patch they change this, but not too much. Keep in mind how turbulent Europe/Middle East/North Africa was at this point. I'm not saying it was as bad as people are saying the diplomacy is in game, I just don't want CA to destroy the intriuge and treachery. I doubt they will, but I jsut want to make sure.

[Darth Nihilus]

No you're not. The ai is sometimes mad when I try to offer them trade rights

[AussieGiant]

I think that is something to generally keep in mind gentlemen…and ladies.

The middle ages were in fact a time of very little actual peace.

Not only countries plotted against each other but also inside each nation was a second level of manoeuvring, treachery and scheming. This even extended to internal families of the ruling class.

It is certainly one thing I could not believe when I first began studying the history of the period at uni. I did ask many professors and they were all highly amused at our collective state of disbelief at the level of distrust we saw.

At higher difficulty levels I would expect this to be played out in a very hard, fast and brutal level of diplomacy.

If you approach this game using the relatively civilised conduct we see today then you are missing a whole load of options and scheming that was occurring during the time this game is being played.

If you want relatively “normal” relations I’d put the campaign AI down to medium.

[Kobal2fr]

I concur with AussieGiant. In fact, I'd even go as far as saying that this much hasn't changed *at all*, even to this day. What has changed is perhaps our detachment from violence, which we now are reluctant to initiate, but was very much a fact of life back then. So, today you probably won't see competing countries or companies take up the sword at the drop of a hat, but hostility and treachery can take many forms...

I do believe you'll find just as much backstabbing, treachery-when-convenient, double dealing etc... in today's economic warfare or in politics. We just don't wage wars for power/money anymore (oh wait, we do don't we ? :] ).

But think about it this way : you, the player, try and make alliances for two reasons : either to give you the time to tech up and later break the alliance and crush them, or to deal with a third faction, conquer it, and then when you're done you'll probably want to invade your ally next.

Conversely, if your AI ally was to leave his borders unguarded and his armies far away, would you not invade unless your own forces are busy somewhere else ?

Trust me on this : alliances of interest only hold as long as the interest itself lasts :) Alliance is not friendship or trust, it's just a way to fight a fight you couldn't win on your own... Why would you ally in the first place if you could just wipe the floor with them ? You want to win. So do they :)

[AussieGiant]

I concur with AussieGiant. In fact, I'd even go as far as saying that this much hasn't changed *at all*, even to this day. What has changed is perhaps our detachment from violence, which we now are reluctant to initiate, but was very much a fact of life back then. So, today you probably won't see competing countries or companies take up the sword at the drop of a hat, but hostility and treachery can take many forms...

I do believe you'll find just as much backstabbing, treachery-when-convenient, double dealing etc... in today's economic warfare or in politics. We just don't wage wars for power/money anymore (oh wait, we do don't we ? :] ).

But think about it this way : you, the player, try and make alliances for two reasons : either to give you the time to tech up and later break the alliance and crush them, or to deal with a third faction, conquer it, and then when you're done you'll probably want to invade your ally next.

Conversely, if your AI ally was to leave his borders unguarded and his armies far away, would you not invade unless your own forces are busy somewhere else ?

Trust me on this : alliances of interest only hold as long as the interest itself lasts :) Alliance is not friendship or trust, it's just a way to fight a fight you couldn't win on your own... Why would you ally in the first place if you could just wipe the floor with them ? You want to win. So do they :)

Exactly Kobal2fr.

I'm finding it highly amusing to hear people complain about the AI on high levels suddenly nailing the player with a surprise attack, just because there was;

a) Alliance intact
b) Alliance intact for many years...

who cares...I always pretend to think about the move "If I was the AI". Now if I swap positions and draw the conclusion that it was in fact a good move...then well done the AI.

Some tips gentlemen...

I'd suggest that the AI is set around "Power Politics" permameters.

You have two options depending on the location of the country you are dealing with:

1) Have superior power in the region and Bully concession out of your neighbours (countries with common boarders), if you don't really want to fight them. If you don't have superior power then you are in deep trouble and will need to bribe them from taking you out.

2) Give money to those nations that are not your neighbours and get what you want while giving money or don't asked for anything and have better relations.

International Power Politics revolves around two single factors.

Physical Military Power and Cash!! That's it!! Nothing else matter. When you have one without the other then you still have a marco strategy, if you have both then you are in an ideal position to win...if you have neither...don't expect to last long.

You as players PICK on countries without either, like wise the AI should also.

Please keep in mind it is all relative.

if you are number three in military power but are snadwiched between 1 and 2 then your up a creek without a paddle. On the other hand if you are number 3 and are next to 6 and 7 then have fun. Likewise you don't have to attack 6 and 7, but I bet you can negotiate good deals out of them (money, trade, etc etc).

With relative military superiority be a bully, with lots of money be a briber.

These are simple theories as the Papacy and various hard coded racism will distort these concepts but they will work from what I have seen.

One tip. If you have loads of money GIVE it away to factions which have common goals, give it to the POPE, ask for things in return or just think of it as an investment...it does seem to work.

[sapi]

One thing that does annoy me with the ai is the fact that in my current (and only) campaign, my diplomatic rating has plunged to 'untrustworthy' despite never breaking a treaty :(

[Werner]

One thing that does annoy me with the ai is the fact that in my current (and only) campaign, my diplomatic rating has plunged to 'untrustworthy' despite never breaking a treaty :(

Yeah I agree, the only reason I started attacking so early in my german campaign is because enemy factions seem to like to attack me. Then my relations go way down and seem to never be able to fix them. On top of it Pope ratings hit the fan because when you try to attack them he disapproves. Fortunately I've become a military blunderbuss and am only 4 cities away from knocking Denmark, Milan and the stupid Venetians out of the game. After that its time for some R&R, going to start teching up all my cities and cap a few more regions to hit my quota. We'll see how long it is before France and England are knocking on my door.

I do think its possible to be friends with everyone, say for the one or two nations you have to kill in order to win. We shall see though, lately my relations with the rest of the nations has been good and am currently allied with England, Egypt, Byzantium, and Spain. All powerful nations and if I can keep my ratings up with all it'll be a turn frenzy until the end.

[Eques]

I wold like to give my opinion in this one
To me the Campaign AI is TOTALLY BROKEN. They NEVER respect any aliances (they "do" when you ont share borders so i will ignore this excuse). This reputation/relations system is a blody joke. The Ai desnt give a fig for any of this. The AI doesnt think on the campaign map, it is truly random in all its acts. Thats ridiculous, for a "strategy game". Fight armys consisting of peasants and catapults?
And that deamenor stuff? That dont work. The thing is, if you are at war with the ai it will find any, i sayd ANY purpose demanding. Thats ridiculous too.
Some people say "You got pay tribute to the AI". Thats nonsense. The ai never payd tribute to me, why should i, with more money, more soldiers, more lands, more technology give any florin to the AI? I shouldnt even dream about it. Thats not imersive and, to me, sounds like a exploit.
It is the same AI from Rome, the same wich blocked ally ports with a fleet of 2 bouts starting a war... totally random, totaly sad. This is TOTAL SAD! You dont see this in any other stategy game. The AI think on civilization 4 (for example, if it feel its will lose the war it asks, it begs for a cease fire), the same in Age of Empires, you never see the AI sending a stupid army without any balance, bahs.
Not long before, i readed an enterview where some CA guy sayd "now you can trust your alys" thats a lie!
Some people dont bother with this, and will say: the AI is perfect, attacking you for no reason, and acting with no reason cuz this game is called "total war". Wel, if it is so, they should just burn this diplomacy option, forget about diplomats, forget about trade rights, just make an army, conquer a city, burn it, the same again, again, again... yeah, TOTAL AND BORING WAR.
Nothing changed from RTW (in this field). The AI acting without reason in a strategy game is ridiculous and a very bad joke.

[econ21]

Let's keep this thread focussed on diplomacy, not CA bashing, please. Off topic posts will be deleted.

[AussieGiant]

Holy Hell, one day of posting in Europe and the US and this is on page 3!!

Things are busy.

A bump to see if anyone has had Diplomatic success.

I read Beefeaters English short story on H Campaign and he had very realistic diplomatic success.

Anyone else?

[andrewt]

I'm currently playing the Venetians and it seems everybody wants to attack Venice. Venice is right next to Bologna and only my ally Sicily is interested in Bologna, which they conquered early on. Both Milan and the HRE tried multiple times already to attack Venice, even when they get completely owned time and again and when Bologna has a much weaker garrison.

I quit my first game when both Milan and the HRE attacked Venice in the space of a few turns each, while I was at war with the Byzantines, who attacked me early on. It still seems to me like the AI factions are more likely to attack the player and less likely to accept ceasefires with the player compared with other factions.

[AussieGiant]

Hi andrewt,

What difficulty?

[Nestor]

Started two campaigns as catholic factions in medium difficulty:

In the first one the Pope didn't like me and everybody was attacking without an obvious reason.

In the second I had better relations with the Pope than my neighbors and even if they attacked they did stop on the next turn. I guess it was the hand of the Pope not letting them continue. I had no serious wars with other catholics for ages!

Another thing: I am not a 100% certain but I think that if you reload there is a chance that the diplomacy AI breaks down and doesn't accept anything. A save/reload bug may be?

[AussieGiant]

Which factions Nestor??

[Nestor]

First one with Venice, second with the Scots. I got really annoyed in the first one with everybody attacking, even close allies, so I chose a faction somewhat isolated for the second. In the second, a couple of times I'd sent an army to stand next to an invading force without attacking and next turn they left for good. Thats why I am talking about the Pope intervening. Once Milan asked for a ceasefire after only one battle.

The save/reload thing happened in both campaigns, IIRC.

[AussieGiant]

Well mainland Europe tends to be a bit of a WWF match so even on medium it can get hairy.

What is the characteristics of this save/load behavior?

[Nestor]

Save the game, make negotiations pushing the opponent for what they offer, they respond but you don't get a result.

Reload and nothing is less than very demanding on the same negotiation screen you were before (where you could actually negotiate in the first place)

[AussieGiant]

Maybe...just maybe it is coding designed to prevent smart alics from taking advantage of the game?

I hope so.

[Amon_Zeth]

I've noticed some peopel say that appeasing the AI by giving them some gold is effective in keeping them from attacking. What works better- giving the gold in a deal every once in a while, or giving them regular tribute?

[AussieGiant]

It's personal preference I'd say.

I don't know which way is better but I would lean towards lump sums or as part of other negotiations. Regular tributes gives the wrong impression as far as I would be concerned.

[andrewt]

I play on medium. I restarted my first campaign because of the gangbang. On my second campaign, I posted more garrison troops in Venice, attacked the Byzantines sooner than they attacked me the first campaign, and had my diplomat go around starting the first turn offering trade rights and alliances to every faction in western Europe close to me.

I had a few times when an "allied" faction would go near Venice. I'd immediately train additional Italian spear militia and would move a few troops from Zagreb on the way to Venice. They'd immediately leave the vicinity and I would move the troops back to Zagreb. Of course, Milan eventually attacked but it was maybe a few turns later than they did during my first campaign. I repulsed them a few times while I was busy with the Byzantines. I eventually conquered them except for Anjou.

HRE didn't get the chance since Sicily attacked Bologna again and again and eventually won control. Of course, Sicily hates me but we've had an alliance close to 100 turns now. They still hate me but have never betrayed me.

[Temujin]

Rhyme & Reason? Some, but there's still work to be done.

Poland wins my prize for most ridiculous diplomacy AI with this stunning move:
They sent a diplomat to offer trade rights and alliance (to me, the HRE), which I accept, and on the very same turn attacking a fully garrisoned Prague with a family member and two depleted units of peasants!

That's neither diplomacy nor warfare, that's just pissing away your credibility and reputation.

So I crushed them, naturally, taking all their baltic provinces and their capital and only stopping because the russians started looking scared and you don't mess with a scared russian. The silly poles agree to a ceasefire, called by me this time, and on the next turn they blockade my newly acquired port in Riga with their "navy" (two leaking boats with skeleton crews) that I didn't even know they had. My field army is only two squares away from their new and largely unprotected capital!

I guess being known as "weak" and "untrustworthy" wasn't enough. Once I get home tonight, they'll be known as "dead"!

[AussieGiant]

Rhyme & Reason? Some, but there's still work to be done.

Poland wins my prize for most ridiculous diplomacy AI with this stunning move:
They sent a diplomat to offer trade rights and alliance (to me, the HRE), which I accept, and on the very same turn attacking a fully garrisoned Prague with a family member and two depleted units of peasants!

That's neither diplomacy nor warfare, that's just pissing away your credibility and reputation.

So I crushed them, naturally, taking all their baltic provinces and their capital and only stopping because the russians started looking scared and you don't mess with a scared russian. The silly poles agree to a ceasefire, called by me this time, and on the next turn they blockade my newly acquired port in Riga with their "navy" (two leaking boats with skeleton crews) that I didn't even know they had. My field army is only two squares away from their new and largely unprotected capital!

I guess being known as "weak" and "untrustworthy" wasn't enough. Once I get home tonight, they'll be known as "dead"!

Well you have to give them credit for being plucky!!

Great line about going near scared Russian's....YOU don't want to get involved there. What difficulty level was it?

[FrauGloer]

The wierdest thing that happened to me was, in my turn, asking the Turks to become my allies and be angrily refused. ("Not interested yaddayadda") and then right after that, in their turn, they ask ME for an alliance and even offer me about 3k for it. Why do things the easy way, huh...

On a similar note, it seems that I can't offer alliances to some factions. E.g as the Scottish, I want to offer an alliance to Poland, but the option is missing from the list. I am not at war with any of their allies and our standings aren't that bad... strange

[Temujin]

Well you have to give them credit for being plucky!!

Great line about going near scared Russian's....YOU don't want to get involved there. What difficulty level was it?

Plucky? They're insane, that's what they are!

I'm playing on medium everything.

[Lothar the Malevolent]

I've just seen yet another boneheaded move by the AI. Playing as England I had taken Bruges and the Danes had Antwerp. After a few turns Antwerp rebelled and a half stack appeared consisting of flemish pikemen and militia. The Danes Assaulted the city the next turn with the remnants of their garrison (not even half the strength of the rebels) and were repulsed and retreated. Being the opportunist I am I marched about half my stack from Bruges and sieged, taking the town after waiting two turns for a ballista to arrive from Caen.

Immediately the next turn the survivors of the Danish force, now down to maybe 200 men at most, wandered back into the area and attacked against my garrison of about 600. I sallied forth and used my archers and ballista to cut as many down as I could before charging the remnants with my mailed knights. The AI really should be a bit smarter than that. For all the improvements to the AI, which definitely overall plays a better game than in previous games, they still tend to make some astoundingly stupid decisions sometimes.

What makes this more annoying is that while Antwerp was in rebellion and our borders did not meet the Danes and I were getting along reasonably well, but as soon as we shared a border those lunatic vikings felt it prudent to mount a suicide attack against me. If they're going to attack they could at least send a suitable force to do the job.

[Burns]

In my campaign the Danes consistently invaded my land regardless of the fact that we were allies (I was vassal). Only after taking their capital city (A something) did they agree to a cease fire. I have never had a peace between myself and HRE that wasnt instigated by the Pope. I gotta say one thing though, sometimes the AI really upholds its deals. I was allied with Russia for nearly my entire game (168 turns) until our relationship deteriorated and now I have to face a fairly large invasion while my troops are on a crusade.