Neverwinter Nights 2 Review

[Reenk Roink]

I know there is another thread related to the game, but seeing as how this is more of a detailed review, I'll go ahead an make a new thread. Other people with the game, feel free to add your own thoughts.

Well, I wasn't able to pick it up on the day it came out, so that preserved my personal streak of not buying any games immediately (whether due to or in spite of my intentions).

But I did grab it last night, and am playing it now.

Wow...

The game is fantastic!

Now, there has been (as there is whenever any game is released), tons of whining...

So let Reenkzilla set the record straight...

It is claimed: The Camera is terrible! It is so retarded and difficult to manage!

Reenk's response: True. I don't think anyone will deny this. The camera controls are different (in a bad way) from the original NWN. They make the game seem clunky and difficult. However, the devs have been quick to address this, and there is already an easy fix.

Problem solved.

It is claimed: The graphics are so bad! What the [bunny]!?!1!one!1uno

Reenk's response: The graphics were the only thing I felt did not live up to hype. I was expecting stunning graphics, and what I got was nice graphics. They are, however, nowhere near as crappy as some people are making them out to be. Check the screens straight from my computer (specs listed in another response below):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Note: two of the three screens got resized...

Now, the graphics aren't as good as Oblivion, but they're not too far behind either. Besides, Oblivion is usually just vast amounts of empty space (I don't own the game but this is what I've heard), while you get dozens of characters in NWN2.

It is claimed: The party AI is inept.

Reenk's response: Haven't personally encountered this at all. Not that it would bother me, as I like to control all my party members anyway. Besides, the devs have said they are working on this.

It is claimed: The game doesn't run at all. It is a complete lagfest on my ubersystem!

Reenk's response: This is probably the most exaggerated claim yet. Let me tell you what I have:

- Pentium 4 3.2 GHz HyperThreading
- 1 GB RAM (don't know which kind but it's probably one of the older ones)
- Nvidia GeForce 7600 GT 256 MB (Overclocked)

The game runs fine. These people are expecting 60+ frames per second... It's not a Half Life, a Halo, or a Battlefield game people. You don't need anything higher than 25-30 fps. Now, with my system, I can run the game on max effects with some lag. Not unplayable mind you, but it gets annoying after awhile. However, if I turn shadows down to low (off is simply the best for performance by the way), and textures to medium, the game runs great. It does lag for a sec when a lot of spells and creatures are on screen, but runs smoothly 99% of the time. (I play on 1280 x 1024 res). The game does have some optimization issues, but then again, the devs had said they are working on this too...

These were the big (and somewhat valid) complaints. There are some other issues that people complain about that are really stupid:

Radial Menu is gone: I personally love this, as I hated the radial menu. However, this claim would be valid if the replacement to the radial menu was bad. It is not...

UI sucks: Are you snorting rocks? The UI is a huge improvement over NWN.

Story is bad: The story is quite amazing I must say. Stop reaching...

I haven't even focused much on all the great things of the game: Great story, nice spell effects, improved gameplay, etc...

But the game is really fantastic...

[Xiahou]

Well Reenk, I guess I'm sold- I'll have to run out and grab it.

[Pindar]

It is claimed: The Camera is terrible! It is so retarded and difficult to manage!

Reenk's response: True. I don't think anyone will deny this. The camera controls are different (in a bad way) from the original NWN. They make the game seem clunky and difficult. However, the devs have been quick to address this, and there is already an easy fix.

Problem solved.

Hello,

I just bought this game. I've not payed it yet. I saw your note. Where is this nwnplayer.ini noted in the link found?

[Xiahou]

The one you want should be under your "My Documents" folder, inside a Neverwinter Nights 2 folder there.

[Bob the Insane]

It is claimed: The Camera is terrible! It is so retarded and difficult to manage!

Reenk's response: True. I don't think anyone will deny this. The camera controls are different (in a bad way) from the original NWN. They make the game seem clunky and difficult. However, the devs have been quick to address this, and there is already an easy fix.

Problem solved.

Agreed and thanks for the link...

It is claimed: The graphics are so bad! What the [bunny]!?!1!one!1uno

Reenk's response: The graphics were the only thing I felt did not live up to hype. I was expecting stunning graphics, and what I got was nice graphics. They are, however, nowhere near as crappy as some people are making them out to be. Check the screens straight from my computer (specs listed in another response below):

Totally agreed, though I will point out this is linked to the machine you are using as in the point below. I would say that the graphics are much the same as NWN1 (hang in with me here for a moment) on a character polygon counts, but the developers have gone down the route of improving the textures and using all the graphical widgets and toys available now in DX9 to pretty everything up. So you you do not have a new enough machine to have all the cool effects running your milage may vary..

It is claimed: The party AI is inept.

Reenk's response: Haven't personally encountered this at all. Not that it would bother me, as I like to control all my party members anyway. Besides, the devs have said they are working on this.

I have found the party generally very good, they occasionally need a prod in the right direction. The only real issue is have to constantly manage you mages or they will throw fireballs at point blank range or into melee combat. As I have DnD Hardcore on for difficulty this leads to a lot of unnecessary healing...

It is claimed: The game doesn't run at all. It is a complete lagfest on my ubersystem!

Reenk's response: This is probably the most exaggerated claim yet. Let me tell you what I have:

- Pentium 4 3.2 GHz HyperThreading
- 1 GB RAM (don't know which kind but it's probably one of the older ones)
- Nvidia GeForce 7600 GT 256 MB (Overclocked)

I agree again I have this:

- Athlon64 +3300
- 2GB RAM (no special brand or type)
- GeForce 6800GT

Performance can get a little laggy in the big mage battles, but is does look pretty sweet...

Story is bad: The story is quite amazing I must say. Stop reaching...

Totally agree, some even go on about how they prefer the the NWN1 story?!?!? Admittedly it is prety straightforward farm boy does good and saves the world story but is it well told and well voice acted. The integration and depth your party members add is fantastic too. Note I say party members rather than henchmen as they really feel that way. The biggest dilema is only taking up to 3 at once (plus possible extras) I never want to leave anyone behind (except Bishop ) as I would to see how all their stories turn out.

I do not think it is at quite the epic storying telling hights as BG2, but it aint far off.

[Kekvit Irae]

I run an Athlon XP 2500 with 1g memory and a Radeon 9550, and the game is uberslow for me. It doesnt help my self esteem when I get constent 2 fps on a 3Dmark06 video benchmark.

[Reenk Roink]

Well Reenk, I guess I'm sold- I'll have to run out and grab it.

Enjoy!

Hello,

I just bought this game. I've not payed it yet. I saw your note. Where is this nwnplayer.ini noted in the link found?

Hey Pindar, this had me confused at first too, I should have elaborated. Like Xiahou said it will be found in a folder created in your 'My Documents' folder and not in its 'C:/Program Files/.../' directory (as is intuitive).

You will have to play the game at least once to have this folder created. So I suggest you create your character, and just go through the initial scene and save. The folder should be created at that point and the 'nwnplayer' file will be there.

I personally use top down camera, though many say drive is best, but you'll just have to see what's best for you.

Enjoy!

[Reenk Roink]

I run an Athlon XP 2500 with 1g memory and a Radeon 9550, and the game is uberslow for me. It doesnt help my self esteem when I get constent 2 fps on a 3Dmark06 video benchmark.

Hey kekvitirae. I suggest turning off all shadows (they are on high for default), getting rid of all water options and perhaps bloom as well, keeping textures at low, and playing on lower resolutions. The game does have it's optimization problems, and hopefully will be less of a system hog with patches.

[Xiahou]

I run an Athlon XP 2500 with 1g memory and a Radeon 9550, and the game is uberslow for me. It doesnt help my self esteem when I get constent 2 fps on a 3Dmark06 video benchmark.

That configuration seems similar to my wife's system(XP2800+, 1GB, 9600Pro) and she's having some trouble with low framerates too.

I did some cursory testing on her system and the texture settings didn't seem to make much of a difference. Shadows made a significant difference, and so did a lower resolution. It still runs in the teens for FPS, but at least it' not a slideshow. Many of the graphical options don't require you to exit the game to apply, so it's easy to click thru them and see what helps.

My system (AMD64 3200, 1GB, x800xl) runs the game with most graphical options on/maxxed (except shadows I think) at 1280x1024 and the FPS seem to generally stay in the low 20s- not great, but certainly acceptable.

[Zenicetus]

Has anyone here tried a co-op LAN game yet? Do both players have their own henchmen, and does the campaign storyline still work smoothly with two players in the game?

My S.O. and I played NWN a lot, on our LAN (before getting sucked down the time-sink vortex of WoW). I remember we had to be careful about who initiated conversations as the "main" character in a plot line, but it worked pretty well.

[sharrukin]

I run an Athlon XP 2500 with 1g memory and a Radeon 9550, and the game is uberslow for me. It doesnt help my self esteem when I get constent 2 fps on a 3Dmark06 video benchmark.

Have you updated your driver recently?

Make sure your virtual memory is 1.5X your memory.

Also some people have found that defrag made a big difference after installing the game.

Another tip posted on the NWN2 Bioware forum...

Quote: Posted 11/05/06 18:16 (GMT) by saint_cornelio

Go to nwn.ini and change your refresh rate to match what your system refresh rate is. The nwn.ini file listed 60hz as default for me. Changing this doubled my fps.
Furthermore, totally disabling shadows (again) doubled my fps in this game. I went from ~18fps to just under 60 with these two tweaks.

Quote: Posted 11/05/06 18:07 (GMT) by Caldwerld

Yeah, where can you find the system refresh rate. And what do I change in the .ini specifically.

My system is running at 85hz, so I made that the value in the nwn.ini file. Your computer is likely running at a different rate. To see what it is running at, right click on the desktop and click on properties. Go to the settings tab and click advanced. Click on the monitor tab and it should say "refresh rate" in the middle. This value is what you want in your nwn.ini file.

---------------------------------------------
I don't know why, but the refresh rate seems to reset if you alter any of the settings. Here's what to do to keep your refresh rate fixed in all DirectX games (including NWN2):

Start>Run

type dxdiag

More help tab

Override

Set override value to 75 (or whichever value you want)

OK and exit.

[Kekvit Irae]

Hey kekvitirae. I suggest turning off all shadows (they are on high for default), getting rid of all water options and perhaps bloom as well, keeping textures at low, and playing on lower resolutions. The game does have it's optimization problems, and hopefully will be less of a system hog with patches.

I run with minimum settings, at 800x600 resolution, and everything is still slow, especially indoors or in a dungeon.

Have you updated your driver recently?

Everything is up to date

[Xiahou]

What really bothers me about the low-end settings on NWN2 is that the graphics are worse looking under those settings than they were in NWN1. Kinda unfortunate.

Also, I still think the controls/camera are a little clunky. Yes, I'm getting used to them as I play more- but they're still awkward.

edit: This thread has several helpful sounding performance tweaks... link

[Lemur]

On the review front, I stumbled across a weird little drama over a review of NWN2 through Penny Arcade. I'll re-construct in chronological order.

First 1up.com posts a review of NWN2 where the author seems to just hate turn-based RPGs in general. The reviewer gives the game 5 out of 10. The article has been removed from their website, so the rescued text is below the spoil tag.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

By Matt Peckham

This review appears in the January issue of Games For Windows: The Official Magazine.

As everything-the-original-did -- and more -- follow-ups go, Neverwinter Nights 2 deserves a banner -- something like "mission accomplished." Think the sequel to Jurassic Park, where Spielberg's all "You want more dinosaurs? I'll show you more dinosaurs..." As a contemporary CRPG, on the other hand, NWN2 leaves a lot to be desired, and that's too bad, because these are the guys who brought us Planescape: Torment and Icewind Dale 2...and therefore they are the guys I'm least inclined to take issue with.

But issues exist, and defining them is really no more complex than saying, "Hello D&D superchrome, buh-bye storytelling and character development (you know, those things you're supposed to "immerse" yourself in)." The idea seems to be that we're meant to rah-rah about a superabundance of feats, spells, races, prestige (advanced) classes, and math-equation tickers full of the usual "I attack you with a +4 sword of --" booooooring. Fine, sure, dandy...but when is a "role" not a "role"? Simple: when it's a rule to a fault.

Ever loyal bites

I'm cruising for a bruising (don't I know it), but NWN2 is a splash of cold water to the face: A revelatory, polarizing experience that -- in the wake of newer, better alternatives -- makes you question the very notion of "RPG by numbers." It foists Wizards of the Coast's latest v3.5 D&D system (a molehill that's become a mountain at this point) onto your hard drive with stunning fidelity, then tacks on dozens of artificial-looking areas vaguely linked by forget-table plot points you check off like grocery to-do's.

Sure, the interface is sleeker with context-sensitive menus and a smart little bar that lets you more intuitively toggle modes like "power attack" and "stealth," but with all the added rule-shuffling, NWN2 seems like it's working twice as hard to accomplish half as much. Worse -- and blame this on games like Oblivion -- NWN2's levels feel pint-sized: Peewee zones inhabited by pull-string NPCs with no existence to speak of beyond their little playpens. Wander and you'll wonder why the forests, towns, and dungeons are like movie lots with lay-about monsters waiting patiently for you to trip their arbitrary triggers. As if the pencil and paper "module" approach were a virtue that computers -- by now demonstrably capable of simulating entire worlds with considerably more depth -- should emulate. It's like we're supposed to park half our brain in feature mania and the rest in nostalgic slush, and somehow call bingo.

The dungeons feel especially stale, so linear and inorganic they might as well be graph-paper lifts filled with room after room of pop-up bogeymen (Doom put them in closets; NWN2 just makes the closets bigger). Maybe you'd rather chat with the dumb NPCs that speak and sound like extras in a bad Saturday morning cartoon? Oh, boy -- there's the portrait "plus" sign! Time to shuffle another party member (improved to four simultaneous) through the level-up grinder, which you can click "recommend" to zip past...but then, what's the point?

Rule-playing game

In all fairness, it's not entirely developer Obsidian's fault. D&D certainly puts the "rule" in role-playing, and a madcap base of D&D aficionados is no doubt ready to string me up for suggesting that faithful is here tantamount to folly (to these people, I say: "Go for it, NWN2's all you've ever wanted and more"). Call me crazy -- I guess I'm just finally weary of being led around on a pencil-and-paper leash and batting numbers around a glorified three-dimensional spreadsheet in a computer translation that should have synthesized, not forklifted.

That five-of-10 is actually a hedge, by the way. For D&D fans who want to play an amazingly thorough PC translation of the system they're carting around in book form, it's proba-bly closer an eight or nine. But if, like me, you want less "rules for rule's sake" and more depth and beauty to your simulated game worlds, you can certainly find more exciting prospects. Part of the reason we call them "the good old days" and think fondly of games past is that it's always easier to love what we don't have to play anymore.

Then the article gets pulled from the website, and one of the editors posts a remarkably frank blog about why.

Then Penny Arcade gets hold of it.

Just a funny little pre-election min-scandal from the world of game reviews. Enjoy.

[doc_bean]

Honestly, I wish more reviewers actually *reviewed* the game: played it and gave their impressions. Lately I feel reviews are becoming summaries of all the previews a game has had. Little or no personal touch, little or no comments about personal experience or how it actually *plays*.

Read some M2TW reviews, hardly any of them mention anything about the gameplay. Most are just gushing over the 1337 gfx.

[frogbeastegg]

Tell the frog more about the plot - but no spoilers, please. I'll be picking up enough of those in the line of duty playing frogmod of the arena. Is it well written? Well acted? Original? A cliche taken in a new direction?

It's been ages since I last sank myself into an RPG with a gripping plot, and it's one of my preferred gaming flavours.

[Reenk Roink]

Honestly, I wish more reviewers actually *reviewed* the game: played it and gave their impressions. Lately I feel reviews are becoming summaries of all the previews a game has had. Little or no personal touch, little or no comments about personal experience or how it actually *plays*.

Read some M2TW reviews, hardly any of them mention anything about the gameplay. Most are just gushing over the 1337 gfx.

Tell the frog more about the plot - but no spoilers, please. I'll be picking up enough of those in the line of duty playing frogmod of the arena. Is it well written? Well acted? Original? A cliche taken in a new direction?

It's been ages since I last sank myself into an RPG with a gripping plot, and it's one of my preferred gaming flavours.

Good points you two.

I'll have a real review done and not responses to whining later today.

I'm still not too deep in the game, but I've played quite a bit of these games (Planescape: Torment, entire Icewind Dale series, and the original Neverwinter Nights and expansions, though not any Baulder's Gate games ), and I'll just say for now that this game has the best features of the above mentioned.

[Pindar]

Hey Pindar, this had me confused at first too, I should have elaborated. Like Xiahou said it will be found in a folder created in your 'My Documents' folder and not in its 'C:/Program Files/.../' directory (as is intuitive).

You will have to play the game at least once to have this folder created. So I suggest you create your character, and just go through the initial scene and save. The folder should be created at that point and the 'nwnplayer' file will be there.

I personally use top down camera, though many say drive is best, but you'll just have to see what's best for you.

Enjoy!

Thank you. I was totally buggered: I've never had a game put stuff in My Documents before.

I've made the change you noted and begun my first go at a Neverwinter Night's Welt. I'm a Warlock. We'll see how I fare.

[Spino]

Was NWN2 made with a licensed engine or did Bioware come up with their own engine to power it? For all Bioware's strengths regarding game design and story I swear their in-house developed engines are absolute garbage, especially with respect to their scalability on mid-low end machines. Graphically speaking NWN, KOTOR & KOTOR2 were far from resembling state of the art games when they were released and yet all three ran like crap on mid range systems. The fact that NWN2 looks like it does and yet runs like crap on low-mid level systems speaks volumes about the engine's level of detail routines and overall level of efficiency.

[Bob the Insane]

Tell the frog more about the plot - but no spoilers, please. I'll be picking up enough of those in the line of duty playing frogmod of the arena. Is it well written? Well acted? Original? A cliche taken in a new direction?

It's been ages since I last sank myself into an RPG with a gripping plot, and it's one of my preferred gaming flavours.

Plot overview... No spoilers... umm... tricky

You are a village lad (or girl of course) living with your quiet and cold elf (ranger type) foster father. Game starts with the day of the harvest festival (it is the tutorial) where you meet your friends and triumph against your rivals in the friendly village way. There are references to a great war in the past and a giant battle (not distant past, more like 20 years ago). The vilage is attacked later that night and your father sends you off on a journey...

The journey is fully of adventure and meeting new people and stuff... But you also get to find out why your foster father is so cold to you and who your parents where and why you are so important...

I have not got to the end yet but I think I will be definately saving the world at some point...

You know I just wrote a mass of stuff before I realised I had given everything away so I deleted it...

Let me say while the story is not a broad as BG it is just as epic (so far)...

I can't even explain the basics without giving stuff away... It is really very good...

edit: and thanks to the quality of the voice acting it is really not a pain sit back and listen through the other characters stories...

[AggonyDuck]

Was NWN2 made with a licensed engine or did Bioware come up with their own engine to power it? For all Bioware's strengths regarding game design and story I swear their in-house developed engines are absolute garbage, especially with respect to their scalability on mid-low end machines. Graphically speaking NWN, KOTOR & KOTOR2 were far from resembling state of the art games when they were released and yet all three ran like crap on mid range systems. The fact that NWN2 looks like it does and yet runs like crap on low-mid level systems speaks volumes about the engine's level of detail routines and overall level of efficiency.

Actually you're barking at the wrong tree here. NWN2 was developed by Obsidian Entertainment, not Bioware.

EDIT: used the wrong idiom.

[Spino]

Actually you're barking at the wrong tree here. NWN2 was developed by Obsidian Entertainment, not Bioware.

EDIT: used the wrong idiom.

Ok but this doesn't rule out the possibility that they used a Bioware engine to power NWN2. Raven was licensed by Id to create Quake IV and they sure as hell used Id's own engine to do it (Doom 3 engine).

[frogbeastegg]

Oh, go on then. :froggy orders a copy: Not that I'm likely to be playing it for a few weeks - hopefully. I'm getting M2TW tomorrow; fingers crossed it will be good, so good I want to play nothing else. By that time there may be a patch to fix the NN2 performance issues.

[Lemur]

Ok but this doesn't rule out the possibility that they used a Bioware engine to power NWN2.

For the record: Obsidian used the NWN engine, with heavy modification. For some reason the whole thing got shifted to DirectX, hence the lack of a Mac version this time.

So it's fair to blame both Obsidian and Bioware for the poor scalability of the software.

[lars573]

I might get this. But I'll have to try and use my game pad. RPG's+keyboars mouse=suckage.

[doc_bean]

You people are making me want to buy this game
I have 2 more questions though:

1. How long does it take to finish the game ?
2. How 'dense' is the story ? Do you wander around for hours performing stupid errands like in NWN1 or does it actually advance every fifteen minutes or so ?

[naut]

If I could get this or Oblivion, what would you recommend?

EDIT: Don't say get both!

[Bob the Insane]

If I could get this or Oblivion, what would you recommend?

EDIT: Don't say get both!

oh.. tricky question...

Well, Oblivion is really the ultimate SP fantasy game in many ways (if you have the machine to run it)... Looks sexy, first person engaging environment.

It is not perfect though, the Radient AI may not be the ultimate AI in reality (or even as good as the hype) but it does make the AI characters at least respond to their environment.

The game can suffer from being overly large and the fact that it does not inhibit you from doing anything means you will try to do everything on a single play through rather than leave things for another time. Also the auto balancing system can grate after a while, the theory that encounters should always be challenging but not impossible is a nice one but lends itself to the felling that you are never really making any progress (levels and skills wise). And in the later portion seeing bandits equiped in a King's ransom of magical gear is odd. But any on the PC there are many mods that resolve these types of issues.

If you get it on the PC is has a little more life in the extensions people can make for it. It does suffer from being very long and the fact that it has such a strong central story hurt replayability a little as there is always a significant portion of the game you will do again (but I guess the same issue can be leveled at most CRPGs)...

NWN2 is too parts, the Original Campaign (OC) and the toolset. The OC is a good traditional style of CRPG (think BG2 in 3D). It is not as big a world as in BG2 but a very epic story and lots to do. Areas become open to you as you progress in an almost linear fashion (not Dungeon Siege by any means) though you can freely revisit most areas. It is obviously a game world with borders and zones and scripted encounters though and it is tell a particular story (but a very good one).

The toolset allows for a very wide variety of new modules, not simply mods of the original game but whole new worlds and stories totally unconnected to the original. (this is possible in Oblivion I think but would take a huge amount of work).

So both swords and sorcery fantasy, but one is open ended free to roam first person style game and the other is telling a particular story with an RTS style camera view.

[Zenicetus]

If I could get this or Oblivion, what would you recommend?

EDIT: Don't say get both!

As an alternative to getting both, you could get Oblivion now, and then buy NWN2 six months from now, or a year from now. The real strength of the original NWN (and I assume NWN2's also) is the way it allows users to write their own modules ("campaigns"). The best of these were better than most commercial products I've seen, but it took a while for the best ones to show up. I think NWN peaked a year or two after release, in that respect. If the game follows NWN, there will also be at least one, and maybe more expansion packs that adds new story content and also (more importantly) new tile sets and creatures for world building and storytelling.

Oblivion won't have that kind of long-term game development (AFAIK), so you might as well play it now, and then get NWN2 later, when it should offer much more than just the original campaign that ships with the game.

[Kraxis]

Btw, Baldurs Gate 2 with expansion is still very much worth the time, effort and money.

So if you can't decide, pick it up and play until you drop (by which time you have only reached about halfway through it).