First impressions on mp

[tibilicus]

Well im going to say my final peice here as ths threads getting rather silly now. Orda, puzz and others. If you don't like MTW2 thats fine, don't play it. But what I do find annoying as how you can critiasize a game you havn't even played? lol? If you don't like it fine. But maby play it or use some first hand comments isntead of trying to make this game look awful. I agreee theres a few issues, personly though they havn't effected me. So far my MP has beeen a good one, much better than RTW at that.

Thanks

Tib

[Monarch]

the masses of the traditional RTS players, and the masses have indeed come - although loud, rude and as a result destroyed the old notions of our community.

Please don't generalise too much. Personally I see the "new" clan community in two. There is the annoying, yelling "war" (aka screenshot posting) mouthy clans, and there is the respectable side of the community who focus on playing the game and tournaments, clans such as Round Table Knights, Vandal Horde and the Huscarls.

Sorry but I just hate it when mtw players automatically think of rtw players like the general yelling lobby people.

are you playing MP battles with unrestricted camera?
Is/was this the norm in RTW?
So you can always scroll over to your allies or the enemy's back to see what's going on without having to move a unit in that area? Seems pretty convenient. For me part of the fun and tactical depth is not to know what's going on at the other end of the field but to guess. That's also where fog and rain come into play. There're many battle reports where fog and rain played immense roles on the outcome of the battle. If I want to know what's going on at the other side I've to go over there with a unit, which is also realistic imho.
BTW, someone mentioned that MTW/VI and STW MP are dead. Well they are not. Both games are still being played online.

I would like to play restricted camera, but only if they modified it. ATM it only lets you see the area around you, this makes team games very hard to play with godo teamwork because you don't have a clue whats going on on your allied sides. If they made it so I can see the fog of war around me, and all my allies then it'd be much more usable.

However I admit I'm so used to unrestricted now its difficult to go back

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Sometimes i just wanna curse STW and MTW. People from all world loved RTW, lots of people keep saying "RTW is the best game ever". Now M2TW is out and again lots and lots of people love the game even more! I loved RTW even more than MTW, and i cant wait to put my hands on M2TW. But here you see, again, these old vets complaining cuz M2TW is diferent, cuz its not like an old game released 6 years ago, bla, bla, bla. Dude, i think we should make a new comunity, cuz this comunity, and the others dont express the voice of the people wich play CA the games anymore. These blody and old comunitys are crowded with people cursing every new release. People with no gratitude. RTW was GREAT! M2TW is even greater!!! But they are upset cuz the game is not like STW, or MTW and keep rejecting every good and incredible aspects of these new games. Every single new and revolutionary feature!
"The game is not like STW, The game sux, i will leave this comunity and i will never buy a new TW game again!' they say, but they are still here, trowing rocks again, and again, and again. God! Just leave, play STW, play pacman, play Age of Empires. But stop spreading this bullshit.
Lots of people join the comunity cuz they love the game and then they read this crap "M2TW, i will never buy it again bla bla." Come on. There is not a single purpose on complaining and talking about STW, the game is GONE!
Who cares if they had monks of **** ninjas!? Play Shinobi!
Help the comunity or leave! Do you know how many posts i readed where people sayd "well, if the game is bad like that i wont buy it". Just because of this.

Took Offensfe from that, Because I don't like People, to come here and tell us to leave.


We Trying to Help the Community Kid, but Like Someone said here Eariler, Mabye Puzz or Orda, not sure, If CA Actually Listen to the Old Vets, we won't be complaining right now. Eques, Why do you play SP/MP? Is it because of the Graphics Mabye? Mabye it becauses you want to see how good you are?


Anyhow, I see no good points in your post for me to talk about, so what I wrote above is it.

[Stig]

Face it, CA has changed, talk to Elmo, t1 or Obake or anyother old Goat, they might not like it but this way CA gets loads more money, why care about 10 people who won't buy it if you can get 10.000 who will buy it?

[tibilicus]

Took Offensfe from that, Because I don't like People, to come here and tell us to leave.


We Trying to Help the Community Kid, but Like Someone said here Eariler, Mabye Puzz or Orda, not sure, If CA Actually Listen to the Old Vets, we won't be complaining right now. Eques, Why do you play SP/MP? Is it because of the Graphics Mabye? Mabye it becauses you want to see how good you are?


Anyhow, I see no good points in your post for me to talk about, so what I wrote above is it.

Ok were to start.


2) I wasn't remotley aware you even play mtw m8. If so the few MTW players I know don't know that.

3)Warman. Which side are you on. You played rtw more than any one here probably. So I don't see were your critisicm is coming from.

4) Warman, dont take it out on people like Equeus. There making a point. Please stop taking a side your clearly not on. You played RTW, you liked it. I don't see where your veiws are comign from or if your just trying to imrpess some of the members here. If so, your only liying to yourself.

m8, it's unfair to take it out on some one with a completly different veiw. If you want to say the same to me. I think MTW2 is an improvment from RTW. Im enjoying it. Equeas made a point. Don't be all up in his face blowing his words compelty out of proportion.


Tib

[Massi]

why do you all argue so long about what you do like, about what you don't like and about what you never played?

"the old vets" have a quite unanimous opinion. Many want to know how is MTW-2 before spending the money and ask in the forums... to the other old vets which could not resist and did buy first. What's wrong about it?

and if I have to say the truth, my opinon is somehow different from Tera's: I think that M2TW is a step toward the old Med, and back from Rome. Therefore I tend to be optimist.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Ok were to start.

2) I wasn't remotley aware you even play mtw m8. If so the few MTW players I know don't know that.

3)Warman. Which side are you on. You played rtw more than any one here probably. So I don't see were your critisicm is coming from.

4) Warman, dont take it out on people like Equeus. There making a point. Please stop taking a side your clearly not on. You played RTW, you liked it. I don't see where your veiws are comign from or if your just trying to imrpess some of the members here. If so, your only liying to yourself.

m8, it's unfair to take it out on some one with a completly different veiw. If you want to say the same to me. I think MTW2 is an improvment from RTW. Im enjoying it. Equeas made a point. Don't be all up in his face blowing his words compelty out of proportion.


Tib

2. Yes I been saying that for Years and I made it Known. Again, If you Read my Posts,doubt you haved, you would known I played MTW/Vi on the unpatched Server

3.Because it something called Addcition. BHC growed, I got addiction to it, even though I didn't like the gameplay, I came back anyhow to start BHC.

4.Who Ever Said I like RTW? May I have Pics or Links Please? None? there you go. I'm backing my Fellow Vets.

m8, it is Fair. In the World of Debate. MTW2 is a slight imprvoement AI wise, yes I admit, but not much better.

[Stig]

Nah MTW2 is better then RTW, but then opinions differ.

Mind you if loads of old vets buy it, even Elmo will give it a try "hint hint"

[TosaInu]

May I hope that all harsh language is gone when I log back in 2 hours?

Like, not like. It's all fine with me. Voicing opinions based on feel, numbers, experience, dreams, bad dreams, I don't care. But keep the discussions clean and grant the other to play his game. This my Hulk p@wns your Spiderman talk is silly. You like Hulk: you watch Hulk. He likes Spid: he watches Spid.

Quit nagging each other with words: be happy that someone else buys this game, which in turn allows you to obtain the copy cheaper than it would be otherwise, if at all available.

And if you don't like it: voice in acceptable words why not, move to things you do like and quit telling others that they are not it.

I think all agree that there are problems with M2TW MP. How is CA supposed to fix that if they have to wade through these brawls?

[tibilicus]

2. Yes I been saying that for Years and I made it Known. Again, If you Read my Posts,doubt you haved, you would known I played MTW/Vi on the unpatched Server

3.Because it something called Addcition. BHC growed, I got addiction to it, even though I didn't like the gameplay, I came back anyhow to start BHC.

4.Tib, Isn't this suppose to be your final Piece here? I mean Last post, or mabye the post before that? Who Ever Said I like RTW? May I have Pics or Links Please? None? there you go. I'm backing my Fellow Vets, Not People like you,Tib or Eques..

m8, it is Fair. In the World of Debate, you ethier tough up and suck it up, or just don't argue at all. MTW2 is a slight imprvoement AI wise, yes I admit, but not much better.

And theres no such thing as adiction with out a cause. No one forced you to play rtw, you chose to. And the one you are yet to play which btw handles MP rather well.

Tib

[Monarch]

I'm backing my Fellow Vets,

Thanks, I needed a good laugh

[LadyAnn]

Nah MTW2 is better then RTW, but then opinions differ.

Mind you if loads of old vets buy it, even Elmo will give it a try "hint hint"

Elmo, where? I miss Elmo!

Annie

[Stig]

.com or simply at the Pond

[x-dANGEr]

Other than your own perception of bashing and of course, the way you dismiss things you never experienced so therefore do not understand. Since you never played STW online and certain members are making direct comparisons, why do you get the impression that you can convince them differently? A written response to your questions to prove the point is simply not enough is it? From your reply to Puzz3D's post that should be obvious, there is a counter to every argument and this could run and run until next year and longer. The simple truth is, no matter how much he tries to explain you will never agree with him. How could you? You don't know what he is talking about

Then, I guess we should just stop arguing. On the same sense, how can you be convinced when you haven't played RTW 1.5, and don't know the tactics/strategies in it. And also, it falls in the same sense, that you are talking bad of a game you haven't played, which AFAIK, I haven't done yet

At any cost, upon the request of others, this discussion as it seems is a dead end, and therefore I will stop it.

*END*

@Tib: To get this topic back on track.. Can you detail to us how your MP experience was? Thanks.

[tibilicus]

Hi X-Danger. To sumarize my experieince.

Overall feel much better than rome. More blanced feels more relastic so on.

Only bad points I have found is some times it's a little laggy. Only effected one of my many games others have had mimimal if not any lag. Cavalry a little but overpowerd but theres bound to be a few issues.

That's it in a nut shell.

[Stig]

imo cav is almost underpowered compared to RTW, they're very bad when fighting after the charge.
BTW I don't have any lag, might have to do with the fact I'm on Univeristy network which gives me a very quick connection, but I don't know.

afaik t1 does seem to like this game

[Orda Khan]

Well im going to say my final peice here as ths threads getting rather silly now. Orda, puzz and others. If you don't like MTW2 thats fine, don't play it. But what I do find annoying as how you can critiasize a game you havn't even played? lol? If you don't like it fine. But maby play it or use some first hand comments isntead of trying to make this game look awful. I agreee theres a few issues, personly though they havn't effected me. So far my MP has beeen a good one, much better than RTW at that.

Thanks

Tib

You see, when things get out of control, issues become clouded and are lost in endless argument. That I do not have the game does not necessarily mean I do not like it and neither does it mean I have not tried it. If you knew the truth it may surprise you.
My main concerns with MP are already posted :
Lag.
SSE2.
And before we go back over the "Can't blame CA for progress" approach, it has already been posted that this will not stop AthlonXP users from joining your battles. When someone posts what they see as an issue, the stock reply seems to be motivated by some inert hatred that anyone should dare criticise the gameplay of a game you enjoy. I must admit it is highly amusing.

The game shows some promise, it still has many issues and of course it is very early yet. Who knows what will be uncovered in a month or two

........Orda

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

No one forced you to play rtw, you chose to. And the one you are yet to play which btw handles MP rather well.

Tib

Go Get MTW/VI, Meet me on MTW/VI, lets do some games, and you see the difference. I played RTW because I wanted to move on, makes Sense?

I also be able to play MP on MTW2 Tib, if I could actually get some help logging on.

Back on Topic:


Cavarly is overpowered, when I did some custom games and such. I had a SP game of, 3 Cav units, 2 Heavy Cav, 1 of them being General Unit, and a few weaker inf unit .vs. a French Army of Armounded Sergeants and 1 General Bodygurad Unit. my 3 cav units took out the whole enitre force themsevles, after my 48 pesaent archers did their damage, and killing about 20 Armounded Sergeants. OverPowerded? IMO yes it is.

[tootee]

Elmo, where? I miss Elmo!

Annie

elmo elmo elmo elmo.. sorry spam

blah couldnt get the game till 24th :( has FF started playing m2tw Ann?

[x-dANGEr]

Hi X-Danger. To sumarize my experieince.

Overall feel much better than rome. More blanced feels more relastic so on.

Only bad points I have found is some times it's a little laggy. Only effected one of my many games others have had mimimal if not any lag. Cavalry a little but overpowerd but theres bound to be a few issues.

That's it in a nut shell.

NOoononooOOOooOo!

I said "detail".. Details please, details!

[SoxSexSax]

Overall, I'm quite impressed with MP, other than the lag:

-> Cavalry are only uber in the charge (and boy if they charge right are they uber!), but when they get bogged down its horsemeat sandwiches for supper

-> Missile troops feel about right, not too deadly not to poop

-> Movement speed is a leetle too quick, but the lag kinda makes up for it

-> It just feels a little more polished than Rome in pretty much every department

My only gripes are:

-> Spears don't seem effective enough against infantry. In fact, spears suck at everything except absorbing a cavalry charge. Even armoured pikemen didn't cut it for me. Note that I don't expect spears to be great against infantry, but even decent spearmen get shredded by weak swords.

-> Massively depleted cavalry units (say like reduced to 3 troops) take ages to die/rout even when surrounded.


I can see myself playing a lot of MP. It's not quite like the original MTW, but it feels more like that than it does Rome, IMO, which is a GOOD thing.

[Gregoshi]

It is great to see you posting again tootee. Thanks a million for providing a link to that STW battle report. I'd forgotten about it. Twas a nice walk down memory lane.

The title of this thread mentions "first impressions" and with the game only being out about two weeks, impressions are about all that can be expected. Over the coming weeks and months with patches, tweaks and experience, more definitive pronouncements can be made as to what M2TW is or isn't.

In the meantime, for those of us who must wait until Christmas to get our copies, keep the impressions, good and bad, coming - impressions of the game, that it.

[Cheetah]

Hope I'll see a couple of ya online. Its been awhile since i've been routed by a Cheetah and a Golfish

We can help about this. How are you mate? Hope to meet you on the battlefield soon. Visit our forums in the meantime.

[Cheetah]

Yoo Cheetah, i am good and how are you.

Its been a long time, years i should say, and my memory isnt as good as what it used to be

did we win that battle?

I am fine, thx.

Btw, we played against eachother. You were with Justy playing your usual nodachi/nag cav rush ...

[Cheetah]

And just to stay on topic: IMO the title of the thread is fine, just people need to read it. It says: MP impressions.

I dont think that it should be hard to realize that different people can have different impressions. Those who started the game in STW will view STW as the "golden standard", on the other hand those who strated it in RTW could be more than happy with the RTW gameplay. There is no contradiction here just people from both sides should realize that impressions -by default- are subjective and thus there is absolutely no point in arguing over them.

Going just one step further it is not hard to realise that there are many ways to balance a game. What might the "perfect balance" for one might be the "worse game" for someone else. Just as before the fine details of "perfect balence" depends on your taste and depends on your previous experience.

Also a point worth consideration that STW is gone and gone forever. I loved STW and I regard it as the golden days of the TW MP community but those days will not come back. I do not want to live in the past, I prefer to live in the present and I do my best to enjoy the present.

One has basically two choices: either to play the game what we have today and to help to improve it; or not to play it at all.

I prefer the first.

[Puzz3D]

Going just one step further it is not hard to realise that there are many ways to balance a game. What might the "perfect balance" for one might be the "worse game" for someone else. Just as before the fine details of "perfect balence" depends on your taste and depends on your previous experience.

Balance is not arbitrary. You need units in each category of the RPS, and those units have to be cost effective otherwise they won't be used. Imbalance in the units will cause the solution to converge to a limited army composition. We saw this in MTW/VI where sword/cav armies dominated. You need balance between maneuver and attrition which means setting the morale at the proper level. The range of morale over which the system works properly is very limited. You have to set the fatigue rates properly relative to the size of the map, and how long units fight. You have to have the fighting time balanced such that a local superiority achieved by maneuver isn't negated by supporting units coming from long distances, and yet you can't have fighting time so short that there isn't enough time for flanking attacks by supporting units or allied armies that are close.

If you've worked on stats as much as I have, you can see the units falling into a certain mathematical relationship as the gameplay improves. You can also see that changing the stats of a single unit causes a ripple effect that affects the balance of other units. In fact, it's easy to imbalance a stat, and good players can exploit relatively small imbalances on the order of 10% or possibly even less.

[Shahed]

*yawn* .... this all happened before.

I know it's not a very constructive comment, but it's amazing how many circles one can do. I do admire you all for your tenacity, you are CA's best asset, a fanbase which constantly tried to improve the game and does'nt give up. Incredible. My Respect. I really wish you all the best of luck and deeply admire your efforts. Hope you can enjoy MTW2 like you did STW or MTW mp, with all the great graphics (and hopefully some realism too).

Sounds very much like the discussion after MTW was released. At that time, snice I played very little STW online, I was'nt sure what everyone was talking about. Then with RTW, I really got the idea. Well, I'll keep reading around here before I buy.

Meanwhile, I started a 1vs1 Hearts of Iron 2: Doomsday, online. That is the first game I played in a while. terrific. No fancy graphics, but depth and detail, immersion is total. Effortless, glitch free, 'balanced', in depth. Brilliant.

Salute !

[peacedog]

Random first impressions:

heavy infantry seem to rule the battlefield, which is ok by me.
horse charges need to be well timed to be effective.
you need to get horses out of melee fast or there dead
archers feel about right.
gunpowder units are very good in the endgame
elephants are easy to counter
fatiuge needs to be upped
maybe spears and pikes underpowered
battles feel a bit like the RTR mod
lobby still ugly
laggy in big battles



Someone told me after a game that they felt the Scots units were overpowered. This may well be the case as ive won about a dozen 1v1s straight with them. Ive been playing TW for a long time but i wouldnt say im that good.

Overall id say if the lag is sorted so we can play 4v4, i could be online quite a lot. Its not back to MTW1 standards, but its miles better than Rome.

[Orda Khan]

Random first impressions:

heavy infantry seem to rule the battlefield, which is ok by me.
horse charges need to be well timed to be effective.
you need to get horses out of melee fast or there dead
archers feel about right.
gunpowder units are very good in the endgame
elephants are easy to counter
fatiuge needs to be upped
maybe spears and pikes underpowered
battles feel a bit like the RTR mod
lobby still ugly
laggy in big battles



Someone told me after a game that they felt the Scots units were overpowered. This may well be the case as ive won about a dozen 1v1s straight with them. Ive been playing TW for a long time but i wouldnt say im that good.

Overall id say if the lag is sorted so we can play 4v4, i could be online quite a lot. Its not back to MTW1 standards, but its miles better than Rome.

Good analysis. I had this impression with Scots also, at 10k I was able to purchase a full 20 unit roster and still had money to buy plenty of upgrades. This army completely steam rollered an English army. It is still too early to say but this could be pointing towards cheap units, cheap upgrade relative to unit cost, leaving a unit that even with upgrades costs less than the unit it can now defeat. I hope this is not the case ( I hated this in MTW/VI ) and it's the main reason I keep calling for an end to upgrades in the MP game. Mars already pointed out that upgrades are a SP feature and part of the campaign, where you gain rewards for improvement. You are not building in MP and balance/gameplay is far more important in MP, we all know that. The same balance/gameplay is already very fragile ( see the comment by Puzz3D ) the ripple effect caused by altering stats has a very large influence.

Those who started the game in STW will view STW as the "golden standard", on the other hand those who strated it in RTW could be more than happy with the RTW gameplay. There is no contradiction here just people from both sides should realize that impressions -by default- are subjective and thus there is absolutely no point in arguing over them.

You are quite right, Cheetah, my argument has never been about this. However I do take issue when those who have witnessed MP in all the titles are being told by those who have not that they are wrong. This kind of argument has no foundation.

Sounds very much like the discussion after MTW was released. At that time, snice I played very little STW online, I was'nt sure what everyone was talking about. Then with RTW, I really got the idea.

This quote from Sinan (Hi mate, hope you are well) explains my point.

My main impression regarding the state of MP is that it could be better than RTW. Whether it provides anything near the experience of MTW is another thing and it is way too early to comment on that

......Orda

[Shahed]

Hi Orda ! :)

All's well.

It's the same case now, people who never played RTW, will play MTW2 and that will be their standard. People who never played MTW, but played RTW, and that will be their standard.

When I joined the MTW community and saw the comments from the vets, I did not understand them, always, I challenged them sometimes but I respected them always (except the childish whining). Obviously the people who played thousands of hours online in STW must have had something intelligent to say about MTW, and they did.

CA has moved the game away from the super niche finesse of STW towards the mass market of RTS. They have profited (in dollar terms) from the dedicated fan base of STW (subsequently MTW) to launch themselves on a "grander" scale in the RTS market. The research and historical accuracy of each game was less than that of it's predecessor.

The key is to understand that the movement is AWAY from everything STW was. With each title (though MY jury is still out on MTW2), the player base increased and the strategic and tactical aspects of the game were diluted.

With the increase in the player base also came a dilution of hardcore wargamers, who founded the online community for the Total War Series. As this CORE of the MP community became a smaller and smaller fraction of the overall player base, their input was considered less and less important. They became less and less important, in market terms.

RTW could have been much better than MTW, and MTW2 much better than RTW as well. As you know I have little faith that CA will do anything for me. I've moved on from their games since RTW was released. However I'm sure you guys can influence the company to do some thing to make the game better for you, as you have successfully achieved in the past. In general though, as you know, I don't expect much from CA with regards to Mp, historical accuracy, etc. They seem to have a different view of the game now than I do and that's fine. Nothing wrong with that, it's their product and their company and they decide where they go. Just that I can't enjoy their games for playability like I used to, and that's all.

I'd like to play MTW2, probably will once there is a decent mod out for multiplayer. Not sure yet. I want to see the graphics ! Eye candy ! YAY ! Where's my popcorn and coke !! This could be better than Kingdom of Heaven. At least that little girl, what's her name ?... Orlando BLOOOOOM does not star in MTW 2 !! (joke)

All the above is commentary and not gospel, so everyone, remember that.

Salute !