First impressions on mp

[Cheetah]

Yoo Cheetah, i am good and how are you.

Its been a long time, years i should say, and my memory isnt as good as what it used to be

did we win that battle?

I am fine, thx.

Btw, we played against eachother. You were with Justy playing your usual nodachi/nag cav rush ...

[Cheetah]

And just to stay on topic: IMO the title of the thread is fine, just people need to read it. It says: MP impressions.

I dont think that it should be hard to realize that different people can have different impressions. Those who started the game in STW will view STW as the "golden standard", on the other hand those who strated it in RTW could be more than happy with the RTW gameplay. There is no contradiction here just people from both sides should realize that impressions -by default- are subjective and thus there is absolutely no point in arguing over them.

Going just one step further it is not hard to realise that there are many ways to balance a game. What might the "perfect balance" for one might be the "worse game" for someone else. Just as before the fine details of "perfect balence" depends on your taste and depends on your previous experience.

Also a point worth consideration that STW is gone and gone forever. I loved STW and I regard it as the golden days of the TW MP community but those days will not come back. I do not want to live in the past, I prefer to live in the present and I do my best to enjoy the present.

One has basically two choices: either to play the game what we have today and to help to improve it; or not to play it at all.

I prefer the first.

[Puzz3D]

Going just one step further it is not hard to realise that there are many ways to balance a game. What might the "perfect balance" for one might be the "worse game" for someone else. Just as before the fine details of "perfect balence" depends on your taste and depends on your previous experience.

Balance is not arbitrary. You need units in each category of the RPS, and those units have to be cost effective otherwise they won't be used. Imbalance in the units will cause the solution to converge to a limited army composition. We saw this in MTW/VI where sword/cav armies dominated. You need balance between maneuver and attrition which means setting the morale at the proper level. The range of morale over which the system works properly is very limited. You have to set the fatigue rates properly relative to the size of the map, and how long units fight. You have to have the fighting time balanced such that a local superiority achieved by maneuver isn't negated by supporting units coming from long distances, and yet you can't have fighting time so short that there isn't enough time for flanking attacks by supporting units or allied armies that are close.

If you've worked on stats as much as I have, you can see the units falling into a certain mathematical relationship as the gameplay improves. You can also see that changing the stats of a single unit causes a ripple effect that affects the balance of other units. In fact, it's easy to imbalance a stat, and good players can exploit relatively small imbalances on the order of 10% or possibly even less.

[peacedog]

Random first impressions:

heavy infantry seem to rule the battlefield, which is ok by me.
horse charges need to be well timed to be effective.
you need to get horses out of melee fast or there dead
archers feel about right.
gunpowder units are very good in the endgame
elephants are easy to counter
fatiuge needs to be upped
maybe spears and pikes underpowered
battles feel a bit like the RTR mod
lobby still ugly
laggy in big battles



Someone told me after a game that they felt the Scots units were overpowered. This may well be the case as ive won about a dozen 1v1s straight with them. Ive been playing TW for a long time but i wouldnt say im that good.

Overall id say if the lag is sorted so we can play 4v4, i could be online quite a lot. Its not back to MTW1 standards, but its miles better than Rome.

[Orda Khan]

Random first impressions:

heavy infantry seem to rule the battlefield, which is ok by me.
horse charges need to be well timed to be effective.
you need to get horses out of melee fast or there dead
archers feel about right.
gunpowder units are very good in the endgame
elephants are easy to counter
fatiuge needs to be upped
maybe spears and pikes underpowered
battles feel a bit like the RTR mod
lobby still ugly
laggy in big battles



Someone told me after a game that they felt the Scots units were overpowered. This may well be the case as ive won about a dozen 1v1s straight with them. Ive been playing TW for a long time but i wouldnt say im that good.

Overall id say if the lag is sorted so we can play 4v4, i could be online quite a lot. Its not back to MTW1 standards, but its miles better than Rome.

Good analysis. I had this impression with Scots also, at 10k I was able to purchase a full 20 unit roster and still had money to buy plenty of upgrades. This army completely steam rollered an English army. It is still too early to say but this could be pointing towards cheap units, cheap upgrade relative to unit cost, leaving a unit that even with upgrades costs less than the unit it can now defeat. I hope this is not the case ( I hated this in MTW/VI ) and it's the main reason I keep calling for an end to upgrades in the MP game. Mars already pointed out that upgrades are a SP feature and part of the campaign, where you gain rewards for improvement. You are not building in MP and balance/gameplay is far more important in MP, we all know that. The same balance/gameplay is already very fragile ( see the comment by Puzz3D ) the ripple effect caused by altering stats has a very large influence.

Those who started the game in STW will view STW as the "golden standard", on the other hand those who strated it in RTW could be more than happy with the RTW gameplay. There is no contradiction here just people from both sides should realize that impressions -by default- are subjective and thus there is absolutely no point in arguing over them.

You are quite right, Cheetah, my argument has never been about this. However I do take issue when those who have witnessed MP in all the titles are being told by those who have not that they are wrong. This kind of argument has no foundation.

Sounds very much like the discussion after MTW was released. At that time, snice I played very little STW online, I was'nt sure what everyone was talking about. Then with RTW, I really got the idea.

This quote from Sinan (Hi mate, hope you are well) explains my point.

My main impression regarding the state of MP is that it could be better than RTW. Whether it provides anything near the experience of MTW is another thing and it is way too early to comment on that

......Orda

[Shahed]

Hi Orda ! :)

All's well.

It's the same case now, people who never played RTW, will play MTW2 and that will be their standard. People who never played MTW, but played RTW, and that will be their standard.

When I joined the MTW community and saw the comments from the vets, I did not understand them, always, I challenged them sometimes but I respected them always (except the childish whining). Obviously the people who played thousands of hours online in STW must have had something intelligent to say about MTW, and they did.

CA has moved the game away from the super niche finesse of STW towards the mass market of RTS. They have profited (in dollar terms) from the dedicated fan base of STW (subsequently MTW) to launch themselves on a "grander" scale in the RTS market. The research and historical accuracy of each game was less than that of it's predecessor.

The key is to understand that the movement is AWAY from everything STW was. With each title (though MY jury is still out on MTW2), the player base increased and the strategic and tactical aspects of the game were diluted.

With the increase in the player base also came a dilution of hardcore wargamers, who founded the online community for the Total War Series. As this CORE of the MP community became a smaller and smaller fraction of the overall player base, their input was considered less and less important. They became less and less important, in market terms.

RTW could have been much better than MTW, and MTW2 much better than RTW as well. As you know I have little faith that CA will do anything for me. I've moved on from their games since RTW was released. However I'm sure you guys can influence the company to do some thing to make the game better for you, as you have successfully achieved in the past. In general though, as you know, I don't expect much from CA with regards to Mp, historical accuracy, etc. They seem to have a different view of the game now than I do and that's fine. Nothing wrong with that, it's their product and their company and they decide where they go. Just that I can't enjoy their games for playability like I used to, and that's all.

I'd like to play MTW2, probably will once there is a decent mod out for multiplayer. Not sure yet. I want to see the graphics ! Eye candy ! YAY ! Where's my popcorn and coke !! This could be better than Kingdom of Heaven. At least that little girl, what's her name ?... Orlando BLOOOOOM does not star in MTW 2 !! (joke)

All the above is commentary and not gospel, so everyone, remember that.

Salute !

[Lusted]

Dragging this topic kicking and screaming back on-topic, i've played a couple more mp battles.

Units which might have been overpowered in mp, such as the cannon elephants, are not if you have the right units to deal with them. Attrition rates vary depending on what units each side has and how thew battle goes. I won one battle with 56% casulaties to the enemies 96%(i routed and chased down most fo his units before dealing with his last unit of elephants), and the next 60% to 87%, with me attacking up hill into his position which was protected by stakes from the front.

M2TW mp is definitely way better than RTWs, things feel much more balanced, and combat last longer, and battles last long enough for proper tactics to be used.

[RTKBarrett]

imo cav is almost underpowered compared to RTW, they're very bad when fighting after the charge.
BTW I don't have any lag, might have to do with the fact I'm on Univeristy network which gives me a very quick connection, but I don't know.

afaik t1 does seem to like this game

Thought id add my two cents to this thread... its been quite, well... yes interesting to read considering i know all the MP ppl putting through their views

Greetings to all old time players, i joined the series in medieval, found rtw like ureselves not as successful but am highly optimistic of this latest title. I hope u dont find anything i say on these boards too extreme

Hi Aonar how are things, we need to get some more games in sometime. Always was a pleasure...

As for the quote, stig i remember our games and i cant see how u can say that considering my clan mate took full advantage of what he has learnt about the game so far concerning cav...

In no way are cavalry underpowered, ud have a much better chance arguing that they are overpowered which they arent. Think of it logically and in a realistic sense... why is it that u think a pikeman is superior to a spear man against cav. A medieval knight is basically the equivalent of a tank, a great amount of weight and force is focussed on the end of a lance which is what makes a knight what it is, a shock unit. An 11 stone man holding a stick cannot withstand such force, he would have his arm torn off even trying... even in tight schiltron the shear force of mounted lancers would hit these guys for 6 in big bloody bulges... A Pike is different as the ground absorbs the force of an angled pike and stops allcomers in their tracks.

Knights die quickly in melee because they shouldnt even be there, end of story really lol. I hope that helps u understand bud, a stopped horse against a spearman is more often than not a dead horse....
Many of us MP players know of Lebedis and his helpful advice to "go flank a schiltron" :D

Ive played alot of multiplayer games, collected alot of replays and watched them... Im enjoying it very much. Sure its all unstable and network problems are more common in team games than ever but thats an issue a patch will certainly address.... i hope.

The gameplay i think is very gd... battles last longer and in a multiplayer aspect things have moved on considerably since rtw. Id be happy to go on but i fear ill be repeating many of u