Elton John: Religion Promotes 'Hatred and Spite' Against Gays

[BDC]

Religion is the favourite vehicle of drunk drivers the world over.

It has been invoked to justify a wide range of aberrant views and practices including political extremism, social ostracism and anti-scientism. Besides, most religions have incorporated much older elements inherited from the cultures that preceded their rise.

Islam for instance is used to justify pre-Islamic or locally developed customs even though these are not explicitly covered by the Quran. A well-known example is female circumcision.

One need only look at the difference between, say, Mexican Catholicism and Scottish Presbyterianism in order to see that Christianity, too, has incorporated a lot of local and often pre-Christian traditions.

Homophobia has been a feature of most pre-modern cultures. Vedic India was a notable exception. It has been incorporated into most modern religions, some strains of Buddhism being the most notable exception.

In the socially mobile western societies of today, homophobia tends to be a typical affliction of people with little education and low social status, regardless of religion or lack thereof.

Wise words.

So the obvious extension to Elton John's comments would be to ban people, then there will never be any more silly beliefs.

[yesdachi]

There are all sorts of reasons I promote hatred and spite for Elton John but being gay is not one of them.

[Tachikaze]

It would be a better world if people practiced personal spirituality and ignored religious dogma.

It would also be a better world if people put as much effort into ending war as they currently do ending homosexuality.

[Mithrandir]

It would be a better world if people practiced personal spirituality and ignored religious dogma.

[Vladimir]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,228860,00.html



He is completely correct.

I dont know about the founding teachings of Islam, Bhudism, or Hinduism, but I do not know of any time Jesus taught that it was ok to treat gays the way many Christians do, or to even label it sin.

Of course there are the old testament passages, but it is my understanding Jesus did not agree with a lot of the things taught in the old testament. In fact, was not the old testament included in the bible just to document the foretelling of the coming of Jesus? Isaiah ascending to the clouds on a chariot or something... its been a long time since religion class...

Anyway, what are your opinions?

As a Christian I'm just posting to say I hate you.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Call me: 867-5309

Homosexuality is BAD in that it stifles population growth which in the old days means manpower to fill out your armies. That is the practical reason why the homosexuals are bad thing is included in Christianity. There are other social and health concerns as well but I won't get into those. If you take a closer look (IIRC of course), there is nothing against bisexuals or girl on girl action. As far as gays and Islam (the others I don't know about"), look at how they are treated in the more extreme Islamic cultures.

Edit: But who am I, a lowly peasant to argue with a Knight? Gah! I can't stand people that take entertainers so seriously!

[Kralizec]

there is nothing against... girl on girl action.

Who would claim such a crazy thing

[Ianofsmeg16]

People claim to hate gays, then watch Lesbian porno...If it was up to me, it'd be the hypocrites that were going to hell...

Homosexuals aren't people to be hated or ridiculed, if you do that you're no worse than Hitler. As for my opinion, as long as they don't come on to me, what they do in their private time is exactly that private.

[yesdachi]

As for my opinion, as long as they don't come on to me, what they do in their private time is exactly that private.

But many gays don’t limit their gay to private time and wish to have equality and be treated without ridicule bla bla bla. And that brings about the confrontation with the people that find their gayness disgusting.

[Scurvy]

People claim to hate gays, then watch Lesbian porno...If it was up to me, it'd be the hypocrites that were going to hell...
.

I think thats a bit unfair, the people who are really against gays (mainly the ones who are religious/brought up to it are against lesbians aswell.... there are some hypocrits though

[Devastatin Dave]

As MRD would say... "This thread's so gay".

[Adrian II]

Homosexuality is BAD in that it stifles population growth which in the old days means manpower to fill out your armies. That is the practical reason why the homosexuals are bad thing is included in Christianity.

Um, not really...

Homosexuality has been among the oldest, most primitive taboos of mankind, together with incest, adultery and such. It is easy to understand how such taboos arose in prehistoric tribes of hunter/gatherers who were often no more than extended families and who, for their own preservation, depended on sufficient numbers of healthy off-spring. In that sense, you are onto something.

In historic societies the motivations for proscribing homosexuality seem to have been very diverse and mitigated by degree and circumstance.

In ancient Greece, homosexuality was allowed and even recommended, but only within the well-discribed boundaries of 'manliness'.

As for ancient Rome, there are records of full same-sex marriages, accompanied by all the requisite (marital) rites including the bridal veil. Even though such practices were generally frowned upon by the public, they were not forbidden - yet.

In the West, the real crush came with the rise of Christianity which had adopted the homophobic mores of the Jews. The Jews originally had homosexual temple prostitutes (see for instance Kings II, 23:7), but from King Joshua on they developed anti-homosexual precepts primarily in order to dissociate themselves from the Assyrians (who had homosexual priests) and later from the Hellenist elites in the lands of Mozes.

The early Christian church seems to have proscribed homosexuality mainly on account of what was then called the "barren coitus" of homosexuals, which did not produce any new adherents of the faith. Producing new recruits for the army of God seems to have been a more important preoccupation for the nascent church than feeding anyone else's armies.

As for Asian societies, that is a different story altogether...

P.S. In an interesting parallel to the Jews, both the Soviet Union and nazi-Germany criminalised homosexuality (and dealt quite severely with homosexuals even within their respective party ranks) mainly for political reasons, i.e. to oppose themselves to (the remnants of) the 'decadent' societies that both preceded and geographically surrounded them. In nazi-Germany this was tied to the supposed 'unnatural' sexual leanings of Jews, in the Soviet Union to the supposed decadence of the western or international 'bourgeoisie'. The case of the Soviet Union is particularly relevant to Elton John's remarks, because its regime was deeply and overtly anti-religious.

[Devastatin Dave]

Hey Adrian, good to see you again.

[Vladimir]

Explain how this:

Homosexuality is BAD in that it stifles population growth which in the old days means manpower to fill out your armies. That is the practical reason why the homosexuals are bad thing is included in Christianity.

Is

Um, not really... [true]

After you said this:

The early Christian church seems to have proscribed homosexuality mainly on account of what was then called the "barren coitus" of homosexuals, which did not produce any new adherents of the faith. Producing new recruits for the army of God seems to have been a more important preoccupation for the nascent church than feeding anyone else's armies.

The early Christian church was that of the Roman empire which was suffering severe manpower shortages hence the practical reason why homosexuality was condemned. This was state sponsored religion which of course was (at least partially) intended to produce more recruits for the army of Man. Remember that many of them were trying to create God's empire on Earth. Fight for the Empire, Fight for God, were intertwined.

A related example is that of the early Mormon church which practiced polygamy partially in an effort to increase their "flock". I'm not sure what views that the sect of Christianity, chosen by Constantine, had on this subject but I suspect that the foundation was there.

On a less serious note, people should really check out these “God hates fags” freaks. There was one extreme anti-homosexual preacher recently that admitted to having sex with a guy (masseur sp?). Another good example of these freaks is a video that someone posted in the Backroom video thread(?). When the Aussie comedian started hitting on him he immediately hid behind his wife and she had to defend him. There’s something wrong with these people (and celebrities with too much money too ).

[Adrian II]

Hey Adrian, good to see you again.

Yo Dave, I have missed you (in the manly sense and all) and it's good to see you back. I will probably regret this confession five seconds from now when you scorch my hide with your Southern whip again, but hey...

The early Christian church was that of the Roman empire which was suffering severe manpower shortages hence the practical reason why homosexuality was condemned.

I see what you mean, Vladimir, but with the early church we usually indicate the immediate successors of Jesus, and the fact that they were a persecuted minority under the Roman Empire will have been an extra impetus to proscribe homosexuality in the ranks.

As for the Romans, they seem to have been rather tolerant of homosexuality even in times when they were short of manpower. If fact, when, even during their heyday, were they not short of manpower?

And yeah, I sure enjoyed the Ted Haggard episode. That was some magnificent reality tv!

[BDC]

Homosexuality is BAD in that it stifles population growth which in the old days means manpower to fill out your armies. That is the practical reason why the homosexuals are bad thing is included in Christianity.

Rubbish. Completely. Celebate monks and priests anyone?

[Adrian II]

Rubbish. Completely. Celebate monks and priests anyone?

I think you have your time-lines wrong.

Peter, the first Pope, was married, and in the early church married priests seem to have been a common occurrence. The Council of Elvira (306) notably established that a priest who sleeps with his wife on the night before Mass will be dismissed! Only in 385 did Pope Sircius decree that priests may not sleep with women. As for Christian monasticism, that only began toward the end of the 3rd century with St. Anthony. By that time Christianity was demographically 'secure'.

[Devastatin Dave]

Rubbish. Completely. Celebate monks and priests anyone?

Tell that to the chior boys!!! Baaaaaazing!!!!



"Yo Dave, I have missed you (in the manly sense and all) and it's good to see you back. I will probably regret this confession five seconds from now when you scorch my hide with your Southern whip again, but hey..."

Ahh Man, I was hoping with my Southern whip I could finally beat you into submission and sweep me off my feet, marry me somewhere in Denmark, then we'd fly down to wherever the hell Modanna got her a little black baby, adopt (buy) one or two for ourselves, and after a long night of intense butt-lovin' we could confess our love for one another at the Org Wedding Chapel of Tolerance. But of course, that might just be a wierd fantasy of mine, or the 12 pack of Coors I just drank!!!

If that ain't siggy material, I'll slap the yellow of my mother-in-laws face!!!

[Tachikaze]

In historic societies the motivations for proscribing homosexuality seem to have been very diverse and mitigated by degree and circumstance.

In ancient Greece, homosexuality was allowed and even recommended, but only within the well-discribed boundaries of 'manliness'.

As for ancient Rome, there are records of full same-sex marriages, accompanied by all the requisite (marital) rites including the bridal veil. Even though such practices were generally frowned upon by the public, they were not forbidden - yet.

As for Asian societies, that is a different story altogether...

It was common for Japanese daimyo, Oda Nobunaga and Takeda Shingen among them, to have young male lovers.

People today seem to forget that marriage and love were normally separate in the past. Lovers were not for procreation, but for romance, emotional support, and/or fun. Therefore, whether they were same-sex or not was not biologically important. In fact, it had the advantage of making accidental issue impossible.

Spouses were for family-making and clan alliances.

[Vladimir]

If that ain't siggy material, I'll slap the yellow of my mother-in-laws face!!!

Probably not what you intended but hey . A signature about a signature, classy!

[Shaun]

Homosexuality is BAD in that it stifles population growth which in the old days means manpower to fill out your armies. That is the practical reason why the homosexuals are bad thing is included in Christianity. There are other social and health concerns as well but I won't get into those. If you take a closer look (IIRC of course), there is nothing against bisexuals or girl on girl action. As far as gays and Islam (the others I don't know about"), look at how they are treated in the more extreme Islamic cultures.

That is utter bovine feces. If gays are bad because they canot re produce then where does that put infertile people? What about celibite monks and the fact that priests cannot marry? I think you need to think that through. And if people join the army and get killed they cant produce children anyway, so thats a pretty rubish argument.

Now, please do go into those "other" socila and health concerns. It would be interesting to see how lame they are. Gays and anal sex is not the only way to get infections, more straight guys have an infection then gays, and we have inventions such as the condom which stops the transfer of infections.
Now, these social problems with gays not getting accepted very well mainly comes from right wing Christian zealots anyway.

And the bible isnt against girl on girl? Haha the hypocrisy is really biggining to show. Theoretically the bible should be against girl on girl as well as it is still a form of homosexuality.

[Adrian II]

Now, please do go into those "other" social and health concerns.

I have survived many a thread on this issue in the past. It usually boils down to the statistical argument that certain health risks are inherent to homosexuality, versus the historical or sociological argument that those health risks are due to the prolonged repression of homosexuality by mainstream society. We will see.

It would be interesting to see how lame they are. (..) Haha the hypocrisy is really beginning to show.

If you are out to convince anyone of your particular views, you are getting off on the wrong foot.

[Devastatin Dave]

Check out the CDC website. Its unfortunate, but true, homosexuals tend to have more STD's. Its not homophobic, its fact. A very dear friend of mine had HIV and it developed into full blown AIDS. He was gay and his life choices were, let's just say, not very healthy. Granted I've known many responsible gays in my life but I've known a lot more that lived in less than safe ways. Sorry for the serious post, but its near the 9th anniversery of Mark's death and I was just missing him...

On a lighter side, I want Tachi to be Adrian and I's flower girl for our ceremony. Anyone wanna be the #### ring bearer?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Actually, heterosexuals have more std's.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

compared to people who are asexual. Wasn't this comparison fun and informative?

[yesdachi]

I am not sure of the statistics but the few gay friends I have seem to have more health issues (nothing a trip to the “free” clinic wont cure) than all the straight friends I have combined.

I am not sure how to say this but I don’t have an issue with homosexuality (I went to an art school after all ) but I do have an issue with the lifestyle that seems to be so prevalent among homosexuals, gays/men in particular. It makes it rather difficult to even stay friends with some because I don’t approve of the infidelity and the freedom with which they choose and then choose again their partners. Friends my age running around like a bunch of horny teenagers without any scruples. The only gay or lesbian couples I know that seem to have any morels are much older.

It is easy to see where religious (hypocrites that they may be) people have problems with homosexuals. I don’t think it is the actual act of being gay most people take issue with (as long as I don’t have to watch the hairy butt sex I’m ok with it ), rather the “sinful” lifestyle that is paraded around by the vocal minority of gays. I don’t care how religious you are you couldn’t sit and talk with my aunt and aunt for five minutes and hate them, they are great people, it’s the partner jumping encouragers of infidelity that don’t care what they are spreading around and demand equality that most people don’t like. If every gay or lesbian couple were like my Aunts, same sex marriage and equality for homosexuals wouldn’t even be an issue but the vocal minority is ruining it for the rest.

Of course with out the vocal minority what would be on daytime talk shows.

[Redleg]

Of course with out the vocal minority what would be on daytime talk shows.

So do you watch a lot of Jerry Springer?

[BDC]

Oops.

[BDC]

Argh too many posts.

[yesdachi]

So do you watch a lot of Jerry Springer?

Years ago I went to a taping of the Jenny Jones show because the Springer shows audience was full!!! BTW the topic for the show I went to was “Women who want their men back”, it was fascinating in a way that made me want take a shower after it was over, it’s a dirty feeling that just wont wash off.

[Tachikaze]

Check out the CDC website. Its unfortunate, but true, homosexuals tend to have more STD's. Its not homophobic, its fact. A very dear friend of mine had HIV and it developed into full blown AIDS. He was gay and his life choices were, let's just say, not very healthy. Granted I've known many responsible gays in my life but I've known a lot more that lived in less than safe ways. Sorry for the serious post, but its near the 9th anniversery of Mark's death and I was just missing him...

On a lighter side, I want Tachi to be Adrian and I's flower girl for our ceremony. Anyone wanna be the #### ring bearer?

I suppose you will want me to wear pigtails.

[Redleg]

Years ago I went to a taping of the Jenny Jones show because the Springer shows audience was full!!! BTW the topic for the show I went to was “Women who want their men back”, it was fascinating in a way that made me want take a shower after it was over, it’s a dirty feeling that just wont wash off.

When I was stationed at Fort Lewis, during our lunch hour, the brigade mess hall had Television sets so that soldier could watch TV while they ate, and before the Corps commander placed Jerry Springer on the, "it can not be shown at lunch in the messhall list" the soldiers in my brigade got me hooked on watching Jerry Springer.

Its a sick addiction that someday I must get treated - but like you its a dirty feeling that just doesn't go away. The material of Jerry Springer though does fit into the subject of this thread. It seems to me that Elton John needs to desperately appear on the Jerry Springer Show.....