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Thread: Ach the Scots!

  1. #1
    The Dam Dog Senior Member Sheogorath's Avatar
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    Default Ach the Scots!

    Anybody else here love the Scots? For some reason theyre the only faction Ive been able to really get into, I play others but they just dont seem as much fun. Maybe its the awsome spectacle of a thosand hairy guys in skirts waving axes and hacking that damned spear militia into tiny, tiny pieces.
    Ive hated those guys ever since I tried Venice and found that everybody was capable of building better spear-militia-types than me.
    I just wish that the guys with claymores didnt come so late, I was looking forward to recreating epic Braveheart levels of killing on the English prior to my kicking them off the islands.

    Oh, and is it just me, or is the AI a little cheaty? During my war with England, I was about to take London (which had a single unit of some kind in it) and the Pope informs me that I have ten turns of peace now, and that if I attack I'll get excommunicated.
    Well, after I hit the end turn button on the 10th turn, I get attacked by England.
    The Pope then sends me a message saying that hes glad we didnt fight and that he hopes 'this new peace' will last.
    Anyway, I Highland Charged' those English bastards off my islands. Im looking at Caen now, but I cant seem to build up a large enough navy to avoid getting chased off/sunk by pirates, who seem to be increadibly strong.
    Tallyho lads, rape the houses and burn the women! Leave not a single potted plant alive! Full speed ahead and damn the cheesemongers!

  2. #2
    Man-at-Arms Member Dave1984's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ach the Scots!

    Ah, by Scots I presume you mean the Braveheart-themed Garden Gnomes.

  3. #3
    Harbinger of... saliva Member alpaca's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ach the Scots!

    Quote Originally Posted by D Wilson
    Ah, by Scots I presume you mean the Braveheart-themed Garden Gnomes.
    Ach, dinnae gimme any o' that blethers, mudlin that ye are. Scotch kings will rule t'lands!

  4. #4
    The Dam Dog Senior Member Sheogorath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ach the Scots!

    Quote Originally Posted by D Wilson
    Ah, by Scots I presume you mean the Braveheart-themed Garden Gnomes.
    Not really gnomes...they appear to be about twice the mass of most other soldiers :P
    Tallyho lads, rape the houses and burn the women! Leave not a single potted plant alive! Full speed ahead and damn the cheesemongers!

  5. #5
    Nobody Important Member Somebody Else's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ach the Scots!

    But they smell... I should know, I've been wearing tartan today - and that doesnnae like the rain...
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  6. #6
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ach the Scots!

    A little off-topic, but one small thing that impressed me about M2TW was the battlefield terrain for some battles in Scotland - it is kind of windswept, grassland, IIRC with heather. It's quite evocative and beautiful.

  7. #7
    Member Member Shaun's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ach the Scots!

    Why is the highland rabble unit WORSE than every other unit? Historically the scots were the last tribal fighters in Europe and the different 'clans' would often fight each other, so the basic scottish peasant, the highland rabble unit, should be better than the other peasants who just farmed all day.

  8. #8
    Harbinger of the Doomed Rat Member Biggus Diccus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ach the Scots!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaun
    Why is the highland rabble unit WORSE than every other unit? Historically the scots were the last tribal fighters in Europe and the different 'clans' would often fight each other, so the basic scottish peasant, the highland rabble unit, should be better than the other peasants who just farmed all day.
    I agree with you, man! But they look much cooler than peasants, though! They should have some kind of special ability, like baring their buttocks to frighten the enemy or something.
    Last edited by Biggus Diccus; 11-13-2006 at 01:46.
    General Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmaney Melchett: That's the spirit, George. If nothing else works, then a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.

  9. #9
    Member Member geala's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ach the Scots!

    I don't think the normal highland people had much time (and the weapons!) to train and become good fighters in that harsh and relatively poor countryside.

    I had hoped for scottish and irish warriors looking more historically realistic, not wearing clothes with came in use much later or were born from the impression of a mediocre actor. Especially the Irish are painful to see. For example I want kerns walking in typical "yellow" tunics with bare feet (and be a lot more effective as light infantry) and not wearing tartan plaids. And so on.

    But to be honest: the highlanders (although I like them very much ) were never the best striking force of Scotland. It were the lowland scots who took the main task when fighting against England. Or not? What could the highlanders do for example against the english bow? I remember Flodden Field where the famous "long"bow proved totally uneffective against the heavily armored scottish front rows in the schiltrons but were deadly against the highlanders.
    The queen commands and we'll obey
    Over the Hills and far away.
    (perhaps from an English Traditional, about 1700 AD)

    Drum, Kinder, seid lustig und allesamt bereit:
    Auf, Ansbach-Dragoner! Auf, Ansbach-Bayreuth!
    (later chorus -containing a wrong regimental name for the Bayreuth-Dragoner (DR Nr. 5) - of the "Hohenfriedberger Marsch", reminiscense of a battle in 1745 AD, to the music perhaps of an earlier cuirassier march)

  10. #10

    Default Re: Ach the Scots!

    Maybe its the awsome spectacle of a thosand hairy guys in skirts waving axes and hacking that damned spear militia into tiny, tiny pieces.
    Skirts?!?!?!?!?!?!?

    Mt first game was as the English and I went all out to destroy the Scots then promptly re-started as the Scots

    19 turns later I had kicked the English scum off of the British Isles and been ex-commed into the bargain, luckily my faction leader died a couple of turns later though I did get a bit of a panic when the crusade icon popped up but thankfully His Popiness sent them off to the Holy Land. At the minute I'm a bit unsure as to where to head next, money is a bit of a problem, I'm getting about 3000 per turn, so I'm consolidating the homeland before making a beachhead on the mainland.

    I'm having trouble getting anywhere with merchants though as I can't keep them on a resourse for more than 2 turns before someone comes along and boots them off.

    I remember Flodden Field
    Didn't know you were that old bud
    Last edited by Ja'chyra; 11-13-2006 at 12:14.

  11. #11
    Man-at-Arms Member Dave1984's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ach the Scots!

    Quote Originally Posted by geala
    I had hoped for scottish and irish warriors looking more historically realistic, not wearing clothes with came in use much later or were born from the impression of a mediocre actor. Especially the Irish are painful to see. For example I want kerns walking in typical "yellow" tunics with bare feet (and be a lot more effective as light infantry) and not wearing tartan plaids. And so on.

    The Scottish highland warriors really only require a linen shirt under their kilts and the removal of the blue facepaint to be reasonably accurate. The simple bi-colour tartans that they wear are again reasonably accurate, although perhaps they should have used four colour tartans for the nobles?

    Ah well, we shall have to wait to be able to mod and see what we can do about leines and solid colour kilts for the irish!

  12. #12
    Member Member geala's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ach the Scots!

    Quote Originally Posted by D Wilson
    The Scottish highland warriors really only require a linen shirt under their kilts and the removal of the blue facepaint to be reasonably accurate. The simple bi-colour tartans that they wear are again reasonably accurate, although perhaps they should have used four colour tartans for the nobles?

    Ah well, we shall have to wait to be able to mod and see what we can do about leines and solid colour kilts for the irish!

    Modding for true Irish warriors would be very nice. As far as the Scots are concerned: didn't they wear plaids in the game? I cannot play for a while and can't remember. Tartan as used may be not the problem, but I thought plaids came in use in the late 16th century (but there were predecessors presumably) and kilts were invented as late as in the early 18th century? I'm a bit far away from the highlands, so I may be wrong.
    The queen commands and we'll obey
    Over the Hills and far away.
    (perhaps from an English Traditional, about 1700 AD)

    Drum, Kinder, seid lustig und allesamt bereit:
    Auf, Ansbach-Dragoner! Auf, Ansbach-Bayreuth!
    (later chorus -containing a wrong regimental name for the Bayreuth-Dragoner (DR Nr. 5) - of the "Hohenfriedberger Marsch", reminiscense of a battle in 1745 AD, to the music perhaps of an earlier cuirassier march)

  13. #13
    Man-at-Arms Member Dave1984's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ach the Scots!

    Quote Originally Posted by geala
    Modding for true Irish warriors would be very nice. As far as the Scots are concerned: didn't they wear plaids in the game? I cannot play for a while and can't remember. Tartan as used may be not the problem, but I thought plaids came in use in the late 16th century (but there were predecessors presumably) and kilts were invented as late as in the early 18th century? I'm a bit far away from the highlands, so I may be wrong.
    The variation of kilts and we know them today were invented, or at least adapted, in the late 18th century and were known at the time as small or walking kilts, to distinguish them from the larger, heavier, all purpose kilts that you see in the game and had been in use for many centuries before that, certainly well before viking times. There's no difference between the great kilt and the belted plaid- they're just different names for the same thing.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Ach the Scots!

    Well, I'm now about 50 or so turns into my Scottish campaign.

    As I said earlier, I had booted the English off of my island, though I still haven't taken Iverness really need to get round to that. I have taken Dublin and Oslo as they were both rebels and slowly built my towns up to give me a regular income of 5000 florins (is this good?).

    I got very lucky in that I had left the English heir wandering around Cornwall and when his father died that made him king and the only family member left, the French had made short work of them without their island cities. The only town they had left was Caen, which I had been blockading off and on for Nobles missions, so I quickly landed a force of dismounted knights and besieged the fortress before anyone else could and they have 1 more turn left to live . I have also shipped a similar force down to take Bordeaux who are still rebels as well.

    Problems I've had, my merchants keep getting killed, someone said to put more than one on a resource but I don't know how to do this as only one at a time can go onto any given resource icon

    Inquisitors, went through about 12 assassins trying to get rid of them

    Forming alliances and trading maps, seems that the AI, intelligently enough, doesn't see the need of getting on the good side of such a small faction.

    The Danes, I'm sure these fur wearing psycho's are eyeing up my lands, they seem to be by far the most aggressive AI faction in my part of the world. I'm sure they'll attack in the next few years, think I'll just let them so they get excommunicated, might even get to call a crusade against them.

    So that's my campaign so far, as you can tell I am the patient type who likes to build up a solid base and expand slowly. I'm kind of hoping that the Danes attack and get excommunicated and I can try and take some of their lands before suing for peace and extorting a shedload of money from them for the priviledge.

    Feel free to comment or offer advice.

  15. #15
    Discipulus et Magister Member Lord Condormanius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ach the Scots!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaun
    Why is the highland rabble unit WORSE than every other unit? Historically the scots were the last tribal fighters in Europe and the different 'clans' would often fight each other, so the basic scottish peasant, the highland rabble unit, should be better than the other peasants who just farmed all day.
    I agree. And to a lesser degree, the English, at least early on.
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    Join the ICLADOLLABOJADALLA! Member IrishArmenian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ach the Scots!

    Quote Originally Posted by geala
    Modding for true Irish warriors would be very nice. As far as the Scots are concerned: didn't they wear plaids in the game? I cannot play for a while and can't remember. Tartan as used may be not the problem, but I thought plaids came in use in the late 16th century (but there were predecessors presumably) and kilts were invented as late as in the early 18th century? I'm a bit far away from the highlands, so I may be wrong.
    The modern kilt (literally thw whole nine yards) came up in the 18th century, but there were many kilt-like garments that appeared much earlier.
    Similar with the tartans. The official clan tartans did not appear until later, but a plaid-like pattern was quite common still.

    "Half of your brain is that of a ten year old and the other half is that of a ten year old that chainsmokes and drinks his liver dead!" --Hagop Beegan

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    He who controls Arrakis.. Member 71-hour Ahmed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ach the Scots!

    I find the Scots surprisingly easy to do well with (and very satisfying given my nationality!) - they would potentially have made a good beginners faction. Even the English don't have it as easy - largely I think because as the Scots you can really focus at the start on one enemy and once you conquer all Britain its easy to build up before facing the rest of the world.

    PS: Theres nothing better than seeing a tight-fisted merchant coming from Aberdeen in Medieval... class.
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    Dux Nova Scotia Member lars573's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ach the Scots!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaun
    Why is the highland rabble unit WORSE than every other unit? Historically the scots were the last tribal fighters in Europe and the different 'clans' would often fight each other, so the basic scottish peasant, the highland rabble unit, should be better than the other peasants who just farmed all day.
    Highland rabble are peasants, they have to suck.


    Anyone notice that Scot milita units=lowlanders. Scot feudal untis=highlanders.
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  19. #19
    Member Member Rpkmann's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ach the Scots!

    Quote Originally Posted by lars573
    Highland rabble are peasants, they have to suck.

    this is true...however, the point they're trying to make is the Scots were generally "tougher" due to tough lives in tribal conflict. Something that we English didn't really have to worry about. And due to that the arguement is that the scot's rabble should be a bit stronger than regular peasant units.

  20. #20
    Member Member Nestor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ach the Scots!

    I am in the middle of a campaign with them and I have to say they are fun. The English made the mistake to attack in the first few turns and got themselves promptly exterminated. (I do miss a long range archer unit so I use mercenary crossbowmen all the time. Anybody with a better idea?)

    Highlanders are deadly even against everything including cavalry especially in street fighting.

    The French made the same mistake soon after and lost the western part of modern France. I took one city crusading, they probably had p***** off more factions. From then on I tried to built my cities and castles and my relation with the Pope. It helps, no one attacks seriously, especially the French are allied with me for over 50 turns.

    Now I own Spain and Portugal and the Mediterranean islands except Crete and Cyprus (under Venice that is pushed out of Italy and in the Balkans and middle East). I crusaded and conquered Jerusalem and took nearby Acre in the process. My priests there are becoming cardinals (it is helping preaching in muslim regions but still I have no idea when and why exactly they gain piety).

    I am using Hospitaller Knights that appear to love me but not enough to give me their headquarters. Something that I've seen: these guys don't seem to fare better than the Feudal knights. And one unit was totally destroyed by a unit of bodyguards on plain soil, without taking down more than 10 opponents. They didn't rout by the way, even the last man kept fighting.

    The armoured noble swordsmen also don't seem better than their feudal counterparts. In fact I have a feeling that the unarmoured nobles are better tactically than them.

    So, long range archers is what they really miss (and a serious enemy, being in good relation with the Pope is helping at first but now it's keeping me in my lands, a double edged knife if you ask me)

    I am playing on M/M by the way, it was challenging for the first 100 turns. I don't really see the point to continue now, I can easily beat the French that don't have any castles to field proper knights, the Moors and the Egyptians. I will probably start a new campaign after a few more turns (120 or so)

  21. #21
    Member Member d1ng0d0g's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ach the Scots!

    I did something similar to the others, crushing those silly normans and driving them back whence they came. (This on VH/VH and modded for 1 turn per year)

    King Malcom send his diplomat to the English princess to arrange for a marriage and ask for a large dowry.

    Then the Crown Prince went south towards York before the English could lay siege and in the next turn assaulted, conquered, and exterminated the town.

    The other price went north to start besieging the castle inverness with his meager troops.

    In Edinburgh the King produced some town militia to bolster his second son's armies, and started construction on some farming improvements.

    My spy was send to the south of York to watch any movements of the English towards Caervannon Castle (sp?).

    After conquering York, the Crown Prince immediately headed for Caervannon, leaving two units of spearmen behind and the Council of Nobles tasked me to conquer Dublin. Arrived at Caervannon the Crown Prince immediately build a battering ram to storm the castle.

    So, the second Prince was building a battering ram to speed up the process of destroying the defenders of Castle Inverness.

    The militia trained in Edingburgh went to strengthen his armies, and the King trained some spear militia and started construction on roads.

    Taking a risk the second Prince assaulted the castle, and conquered it at quite a great loss to his town militia. He spared the inhabitants of the castle and immediately left south to govern York (on his own).

    His troops except for two town militia units which were merged to be at almost full strength headed towards Dublin on foot.

    At Caervannon the Crown Prince recruited some welsh spearman, and assaulted the castle. Those welsh longbow man hurt, but eventually he smashed through the gate and crushed the defenders, killing them all and claiming the castle for Scotland.

    He then left the castle with the remainder of his militia (two units guarding) and headed quickly towards the coast to board the waiting ships for passage to Dublin

    At Dublin he started laying siege, waiting for the relieve force from Inverness.

    The defenders thought him weak and assaulted him, but with some well placed archers, and good use of his bodyguard troops he barely managed to defeat them.

    King Malcolm in his infinite wisdom decided that Inverness would make for a better town and he send his newest adoptive son (a chivalrous and good governor) to this new town.

    And so, Scotland formed itself from an insignificant Nation surrounded by rebels, into weak nation, by far not ready to take on the English dogs.

    ---

    This was about 6 or 7 turns,e during which I severely depleted the funds at the new nations disposal.

    ---

    I just finished building barracks and started on the bowyer when the English decided to betray me and lay siege to Caervannon.

    The Crown Prince rushed from Dublin towards the ships and beat back the Normans and recruited some Highland Rabble and went to the south of York to face the large Norman army massing there. He was faced by twice the number of men, and they included two units of feudal knights, a skilled general, three units of archers and lots of town militia.

    Against all odds the brave Highlander Rabble and the better equipped axe-wielding Highlanders managed to butcher the feudal knights who came to face them. The Prince's archers sniping of militiamen from the flanks while the Prince himself was running around the enemy army.

    With a bold charge from the rear he managed to completely decimate his enemy's bodyguard and capture the general turning the large enemy into a rout. Being the bastard whom he was, he and his men chased down the enemy as much as they could and at the end of the battle he made an example of them to his enemies. The field ran red with the blood of the executed prisoners.

    After this the Nothingham and London were a pushover.

    Eventually the game "died" when I was at peace with everybody, including the English surviving in Caen.

    The Crown Prince then became king and went for conquest of Antwerp, but was beaten there by the Danes. And then the pope asked for a Crusade to Constantinopel conquered by the infidel Egyptians which the King joined.

    He conquered Constantinopel, but before he did so, he was betrayed by the Danes, excommunicated by the Pope (while laying siege with his crusader army to Constantinopel), attacked by the French, and plagued by Imperial Assassins.

    He got himself the Spear of Destiny, and a retinue of all Crusader Orders, as well as a torturer, and a ratings that were absolutely the best that I ever saw on any of the characters in the game. Except that he was 62 by this time.

    He died to an Egyptian assassin before he could return to the Antwerp region to assist in the war against the Danes. His death made my little empire crumble into lots of Rebel settlements. It seems that nobody really liked the new king, his adoptive brother (located by then in the new capital of London) who happened to be exactly what the previous King wasn't... a Chivalrous, Noble, and very clever person (with hardly any authority).

    Well with all the rebel settlements, as well as family members turning rebel in the Antwerp region. I tried to reconquer Britain, but the Danes beat me to it and they eventually killed the new King before I even had the offer of a new faction heir...

    And then the game died on me.

    And that's how much I like the Scots..


    ----


    One other thing about the Scots.. their light infantry is really good when having a few upgrades, and some experience under their belts.

    The Highlander Pikemen are also quite impressive, though why can't they move and retake their shieldwall formation.

    ---

    Oh, and I now officially hate the Danes. Somehow I can never recreate the success they seem to have in any game I don't play them. They always get betrayed by their allies, while in as the AI, the Danes have possibly the most loyal allies in the HRE and Poland.

    ---

    Dingo

  22. #22
    Member Member darsalon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ach the Scots!

    Yep, having a great time playing them although I'm just on a short campaign. My conquest of Britain was certainly helped by the main english army there turning to rebels which allowed me to roll up Nottingham and London within around 10 turns of the campaign starting. Got me excommunicated for a short period of time but it was worth doing to get my lands secure.
    After building up some cash and a naval fleet then grabbed Rennes off the English as they were getting frisky again and grabbing land off the French. Using my advantage with my navy I was able to stop the English besieging Rennes for any protracted period of time. Eventually I was able to build up enough of a force to take Caen as well as beat off something like the 5th siege at Rennes which has left the English with Paris building militia units.
    As is usual the Danish have become a superpower and have started to get all belligerent. For the moment they have now stopped as I have exploited the lack of garrisoning by the ai to sack several of their large cities and castles. Netting 20-30k florins each time really helps when building up the fortresses and so on.
    Think to complete the campaign I'll kill off the English by taking Paris and then building up forces for an assault against the Danish.

    Am finding the units in battles tremendous fun, especially in sieges. My most memorable victory being when I held the english at a set of city gates with my militia units. Then sent a bunch of highland nobles down one of the English's siege towers and behind the main English force as they were stuffed going through the gates. The sight of a bunch of lunatics wielding two handed swords charging them from the back caused them to rout very easily.
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