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Thread: What happened to spears?
It seems like spearmen have become nearly useless. They have almost no effect on cavalry except a very slightly higher kill rate. Of course, that doesnt matter because the cavalry will usually kill/route ALL of them, making them near-useless for classical tasks for spearmen, EX: Lining up in front of a gate and not letting those dirty smelly (nationality) through.
In this game it seems like anything which attacks spearmen, even braced spearmen in defence mode, gets a huge advantage.
I miss the days when I could rely on a single unit of Triarii and two Hastati to hold back (literaly!) an entire Carthagenian army. I tried that once in this game and my poor spears lasted about thirty seconds. Or the even older days (sort of :P) when a single unit of spearmen held back a vast Papal army at the gates of Rome.
So, anybody have advice on defending towns? My strategy has always been a defensive-type unit across the streets and, in general, it worked quite well. Now it seems that Ill get steamrolled if I dont do something different. The question is, what? Previously the defender always had an advantage in their chokepoint control, now it seems that particular ability has vanished, and leaving garrisons in all my towns and cities large enough to defeat an attacking army on the field would quickly bog down my production, no?
In this game it seems like anything which attacks spearmen, even braced spearmen in defence mode, gets a huge advantage.
I miss the days when I could rely on a single unit of Triarii and two Hastati to hold back (literaly!) an entire Carthagenian army. I tried that once in this game and my poor spears lasted about thirty seconds. Or the even older days (sort of :P) when a single unit of spearmen held back a vast Papal army at the gates of Rome.
So, anybody have advice on defending towns? My strategy has always been a defensive-type unit across the streets and, in general, it worked quite well. Now it seems that Ill get steamrolled if I dont do something different. The question is, what? Previously the defender always had an advantage in their chokepoint control, now it seems that particular ability has vanished, and leaving garrisons in all my towns and cities large enough to defeat an attacking army on the field would quickly bog down my production, no?
To defend a town i would recommend Dismounted Knights veterans. They have high stats and can last long enough for reinforcements to arrive from any other part of the city.
Did you try using the walls or ambushes?
What I do when not using the walls is ambush.
I have a weak and usually weak unit like spearmen stay a bit behind an intersection and when they get attacked I have my much stronger units attack the flanks of the attackers.
I tend to do that ambush more often then not so far because the lag makes defence of the wall take eternity to do, if they fix the lag with a patch though I will just defend the walls.
What I do when not using the walls is ambush.
I have a weak and usually weak unit like spearmen stay a bit behind an intersection and when they get attacked I have my much stronger units attack the flanks of the attackers.
I tend to do that ambush more often then not so far because the lag makes defence of the wall take eternity to do, if they fix the lag with a patch though I will just defend the walls.
I have noticed a similar thing in my campaign, but I do not think it has anything to do with spears. The only spear units I have access to (playing as England, about 70 turns in) are poor quality spear militia and levy spears. These guys have pretty low stats and I suspect that is why they are being destroyed. I have had some rather unpleasant encounters with Flemish Pikes and some Scottish pike-ish unit whose name I cannot recall. In comparison, I picked up some Crusader Sergeants along the road to Antioch and they are extremely good, with a high defense rating. Unfortunately I cannot recruit them normally.
Yes, there may be a SP balance issue with spears - at least for the English. (Maybe some other factions have decent well armoured spears?) Looking at the stats, it is hard to see why you would not just go with armoured swordsmen or dismounted feudal knights. They cost only fractionally less in upkeep (the purchase cost is much higher, but that is less important apart from in MP). And while they don't have spears, their much higher defence probably means they probably can cope with cav more or less as well. Plus they can slice through most infantry and are ideal for defending towns.
I guess the English spears are just supposed to represent low grade "fodder" troops that you have to use in the early game and can get free in cities. It would be nice to have some dismounted armoured knights with anti-cav spears/lances, however. I'll swear I saw something like that in one old screenshot. I believe that was mainly how the English used their dismounted knights - as an anti-cav shield for their archers, often with cut down lances as "spears".
One historical tactic that belatedly occurred to me was using the English archer's stakes and then putting swords behind them. Would only work on the defensive though. And would the AI be crazy enough to charge them?
I guess the English spears are just supposed to represent low grade "fodder" troops that you have to use in the early game and can get free in cities. It would be nice to have some dismounted armoured knights with anti-cav spears/lances, however. I'll swear I saw something like that in one old screenshot. I believe that was mainly how the English used their dismounted knights - as an anti-cav shield for their archers, often with cut down lances as "spears".
One historical tactic that belatedly occurred to me was using the English archer's stakes and then putting swords behind them. Would only work on the defensive though. And would the AI be crazy enough to charge them?
Didnt some early preview mention that English archers special ability would be setting up stakes? That would be awsome >_>
Well, I killed the Scots prior to their developing any serious military in my English campaign. Italian Spear Militia seem a bit tougher, but they still dont stand a chance against a well organized knight charge, and foot knights cut them into tiny chunks in a matter of seconds.
Ill test some spear units in various battles when I get home, maybe do a report on which ones are good at what :P
Well, I killed the Scots prior to their developing any serious military in my English campaign. Italian Spear Militia seem a bit tougher, but they still dont stand a chance against a well organized knight charge, and foot knights cut them into tiny chunks in a matter of seconds.
Ill test some spear units in various battles when I get home, maybe do a report on which ones are good at what :P
Hi Econ and Sheogorath,
I can tell you from looking at the unit line ups that the English were always going to be lacking in the spear department. Basically the English spear units are just that...Fodder. You will have to look at other options for this faction.
The only unit that sticks out as really anti cavalry and "spearish" (new work that!!) is:
Armoured Sergeants:
Armoured Sergeants are professional warriors, drawn from the lower classes. They have some skill in combat and are well equipped with long spears, large shields and mail armour. They're very solid defensive units, able to resist attacks from both foot and horse, so long as they are well supported. If necessary they can form a defensive circle.
and these fella's:
Dismounted English Knights
English knights often chose to fight dismounted. With their fearsome poleaxes, they can crush enemy infantry and fend off any horseman.
As far as I can tell they are your advanced anti cav / spear units. Give em a try and let me know!!
I can tell you from looking at the unit line ups that the English were always going to be lacking in the spear department. Basically the English spear units are just that...Fodder. You will have to look at other options for this faction.
The only unit that sticks out as really anti cavalry and "spearish" (new work that!!) is:
Armoured Sergeants:
Armoured Sergeants are professional warriors, drawn from the lower classes. They have some skill in combat and are well equipped with long spears, large shields and mail armour. They're very solid defensive units, able to resist attacks from both foot and horse, so long as they are well supported. If necessary they can form a defensive circle.
and these fella's:
Dismounted English Knights
English knights often chose to fight dismounted. With their fearsome poleaxes, they can crush enemy infantry and fend off any horseman.
As far as I can tell they are your advanced anti cav / spear units. Give em a try and let me know!!
Originally Posted by AussieGiant:
Hi Econ and Sheogorath,
I can tell you from looking at the unit line ups that the English were always going to be lacking in the spear department. Basically the English spear units are just that...Fodder. You will have to look at other options for this faction.
The only unit that sticks out as really anti cavalry and "spearish" (new work that!!) is:
Armoured Sergeants:
Armoured Sergeants are professional warriors, drawn from the lower classes. They have some skill in combat and are well equipped with long spears, large shields and mail armour. They're very solid defensive units, able to resist attacks from both foot and horse, so long as they are well supported. If necessary they can form a defensive circle.
and these fella's:
Dismounted English Knights
English knights often chose to fight dismounted. With their fearsome poleaxes, they can crush enemy infantry and fend off any horseman.
As far as I can tell they are your advanced anti cav / spear units. Give em a try and let me know!!
Unfortunately england cant recruit Armoured Sergeants or any sergeants at all. As for the dismounted knights, well they basically chop up anything. I have to disagree that the levy spearmen are useless, they are cheap and with full armour upgrade they can take almost anything. I would love to see some sort of good spear unit for the english though.Hi Econ and Sheogorath,
I can tell you from looking at the unit line ups that the English were always going to be lacking in the spear department. Basically the English spear units are just that...Fodder. You will have to look at other options for this faction.
The only unit that sticks out as really anti cavalry and "spearish" (new work that!!) is:
Armoured Sergeants:
Armoured Sergeants are professional warriors, drawn from the lower classes. They have some skill in combat and are well equipped with long spears, large shields and mail armour. They're very solid defensive units, able to resist attacks from both foot and horse, so long as they are well supported. If necessary they can form a defensive circle.
and these fella's:
Dismounted English Knights
English knights often chose to fight dismounted. With their fearsome poleaxes, they can crush enemy infantry and fend off any horseman.
As far as I can tell they are your advanced anti cav / spear units. Give em a try and let me know!!
Even well armoured spearmen are useless.
Made test battle on flat ground between peasant archer unit and Italian milita spearmen unit with max armour upgrade.
Archers killed one third of spearmen shooting directly at them.
This was unlike even in RTW when shooting directly at well armoured infantry wouldn't cause much casualties.
Made test battle on flat ground between peasant archer unit and Italian milita spearmen unit with max armour upgrade.
Archers killed one third of spearmen shooting directly at them.
This was unlike even in RTW when shooting directly at well armoured infantry wouldn't cause much casualties.
I think we also need a test of a cavalry unit charging the infantry, not how many an archer unit can take out...
Yes tests arent real examples of battles in the campaign.
The reason spear men are so poor is because of their low defence stats. There are no heavy spearmen anymore (as in MTW there were Chivalric Sergeants and Order foot soldiers to name a few). The best spear units are the pikemen (most factions dont get these), sergeants are poor as well (Italian spear militia have higher def stats) and armoured sergeants are only marginally better. What is needed is a unit of Heavy spearmen avaliable to all Catholic factions and the Byzantines. Why did they not include any decent spearmen? There is also a lack of swordsmen, the only sword foot unit you get until late on are dismounted knights.
Originally Posted by Dr_Who_Regen#4:
I think we also need a test of a cavalry unit charging the infantry, not how many an archer unit can take out...
Made test with mailed knights vs Italian militia spear having max armour upgrade.I think we also need a test of a cavalry unit charging the infantry, not how many an archer unit can take out...
The ground was flat and spearmens were on defensive stance. On the direct charge knights swept through the spearmen line leaving only 8 to run away. Must say that only 20 knights were alive. Massacre was very fast.
Originally Posted by Shaun:
The reason spear men are so poor is because of their low defence stats. There are no heavy spearmen anymore (as in MTW there were Chivalric Sergeants and Order foot soldiers to name a few). The best spear units are the pikemen (most factions dont get these), sergeants are poor as well (Italian spear militia have higher def stats) and armoured sergeants are only marginally better. What is needed is a unit of Heavy spearmen avaliable to all Catholic factions and the Byzantines. Why did they not include any decent spearmen? There is also a lack of swordsmen, the only sword foot unit you get until late on are dismounted knights.
I don't think that game lacks heavy spearmen. The same Italian milita with max armour upgrade has full mail coat with plate armour details.The reason spear men are so poor is because of their low defence stats. There are no heavy spearmen anymore (as in MTW there were Chivalric Sergeants and Order foot soldiers to name a few). The best spear units are the pikemen (most factions dont get these), sergeants are poor as well (Italian spear militia have higher def stats) and armoured sergeants are only marginally better. What is needed is a unit of Heavy spearmen avaliable to all Catholic factions and the Byzantines. Why did they not include any decent spearmen? There is also a lack of swordsmen, the only sword foot unit you get until late on are dismounted knights.
What would be interesting would be peasant archers vs spearmen on hand to hand: on my campaign battles even that would be difficult for the spearmen...
Otherwise a knights charge againts pikemen in defensive stance.
Maybe I'll give it a shot sometimes
Otherwise a knights charge againts pikemen in defensive stance.
Maybe I'll give it a shot sometimes
Originally Posted by Shaun:
There is also a lack of swordsmen, the only sword foot unit you get until late on are dismounted knights.
Well, you do get armoured swordsmen as England and they are pretty tough.There is also a lack of swordsmen, the only sword foot unit you get until late on are dismounted knights.
I've found spearmen fairly useful for soaking up charges, they're cheap, easy to replace (pick em up from citys) and can hold a line long enough for my real army to perform a flank attack.
All in all I use em as I did in MTW and it seems to work fine.
All in all I use em as I did in MTW and it seems to work fine.
Originally Posted by Throumbaris:
Unfortunately england cant recruit Armoured Sergeants or any sergeants at all. As for the dismounted knights, well they basically chop up anything. I have to disagree that the levy spearmen are useless, they are cheap and with full armour upgrade they can take almost anything. I would love to see some sort of good spear unit for the english though.
Hi Throumbaris,Unfortunately england cant recruit Armoured Sergeants or any sergeants at all. As for the dismounted knights, well they basically chop up anything. I have to disagree that the levy spearmen are useless, they are cheap and with full armour upgrade they can take almost anything. I would love to see some sort of good spear unit for the english though.
Why can't you recruit Armoured Sergents? They are in the unit list for the English. Are you sure?
I also agree with you about the flexibility of the weaopn and armour options. These maybe the solution.
Please keep in mind though that the English were not really a spear oriented army. It's just a weakness of the faction I suggest.
I don't think the English get armoured spears in the campaign.
BTW, regarding my early comment on swords vs knights. I was besieging a castle last night and a defending unit of French knights (a general's unit with 2 HP) sallied out to charge my swordsmen pushing a siege tower. It was ugly but I am not convinced my spears would have done significantly better. It's a kind of mutual assured destruction. I guess the English just have to accept this kind of attrition.
BTW, regarding my early comment on swords vs knights. I was besieging a castle last night and a defending unit of French knights (a general's unit with 2 HP) sallied out to charge my swordsmen pushing a siege tower. It was ugly but I am not convinced my spears would have done significantly better. It's a kind of mutual assured destruction. I guess the English just have to accept this kind of attrition.
"I don't think the English get armoured spears in the campaign."
Really!!?? They are listed in the English unit section. Is this a mistake by IGN econ?
Really!!?? They are listed in the English unit section. Is this a mistake by IGN econ?
I vaguely recall someone saying armoured spears were available to the English in MP.
What i deslike more about these "new spear" units is that they dont act like spearmans! Im talking about units like Pikemans, not the spearmans using small sticks and a shield. They seen to like more of their second weapon: swords.
For example, do you see they marching like those old phalanx keeping their spears down? NO! They raise their pikes even when they march.
Sometimes i feel like their pikes are just for show...
Forgive me if im wrong, cuz my game didnt arriived yet and till now im just playing the demo over and over again.
For example, do you see they marching like those old phalanx keeping their spears down? NO! They raise their pikes even when they march.
Sometimes i feel like their pikes are just for show...
Forgive me if im wrong, cuz my game didnt arriived yet and till now im just playing the demo over and over again.
The English unit is called "Armoured Sargents".
There is no mention of spears in their title but their discription reveals that they are armed with spears.
That is the unit I'm talking about.
Another question econ...I assume you have used Dismounted English Knights. Did they have polearms?? By the way econ...I'm asking enough questions of you to wonder if I am becoming annoying. Let me know if I am, and I'll ease up.
There is no mention of spears in their title but their discription reveals that they are armed with spears.
That is the unit I'm talking about.
Another question econ...I assume you have used Dismounted English Knights. Did they have polearms?? By the way econ...I'm asking enough questions of you to wonder if I am becoming annoying. Let me know if I am, and I'll ease up.
I looked at the building browers last night, and I think for the English there's no armoured sergeant - the "ultimate" English non-knightly infantry unit I think you can recruit in the campaign is the armoured billman. I suspect the IGN faction list was for MP, not SP.
I have not got dismounted English knights, but from the building browser, they do have polearms yes.
I have not got dismounted English knights, but from the building browser, they do have polearms yes.
Originally Posted by :
For example, do you see they marching like those old phalanx keeping their spears down? NO! They raise their pikes even when they march.
That's accurate, the phalanx formation was incredibly overpwoered because it meant units were basically invincivble from the fornt, even when moving.For example, do you see they marching like those old phalanx keeping their spears down? NO! They raise their pikes even when they march.
I think the main problem wasn't the invicivibility from the front it was the mobility, Phalanxes could spin on a dime with spears down in RTW. Nothing like charging into the rear of a phalanx only to have it spin round (spears going through bodys) and slaughter your unit.
Originally Posted by Sheogorath:
I miss the days when I could rely on a single unit of Triarii and two Hastati to hold back (literaly!) an entire Carthagenian army. I tried that once in this game and my poor spears lasted about thirty seconds. Or the even older days (sort of :P) when a single unit of spearmen held back a vast Papal army at the gates of Rome.
Welcome to Medieval buddy I miss the days when I could rely on a single unit of Triarii and two Hastati to hold back (literaly!) an entire Carthagenian army. I tried that once in this game and my poor spears lasted about thirty seconds. Or the even older days (sort of :P) when a single unit of spearmen held back a vast Papal army at the gates of Rome.
. That's why many of us oldies hated Rome. Although the spears have been downgraded too far. Needs to be a more moderate value.Originally Posted by econ21:
I looked at the building browers last night, and I think for the English there's no armoured sergeant - the "ultimate" English non-knightly infantry unit I think you can recruit in the campaign is the armoured billman. I suspect the IGN faction list was for MP, not SP.
I have not got dismounted English knights, but from the building browser, they do have polearms yes.
Well b****er me with a pitch fork!! My main fighting unit has just been taken away!! They were giong to be my backbone unit against all those French horsies on the continent!!!I looked at the building browers last night, and I think for the English there's no armoured sergeant - the "ultimate" English non-knightly infantry unit I think you can recruit in the campaign is the armoured billman. I suspect the IGN faction list was for MP, not SP.
I have not got dismounted English knights, but from the building browser, they do have polearms yes.
Good to hear about the polearms on the Dismounted English Knights Econ.
It looks like the those Heavy Billmen need to be upgrade to the eye balls for the mid to late game!!
Billmen are disapointing so far.
Billmen remind me of town militia in MTW. Good attack, especially against armour, but poor defence and no anti-cav property. Good for charging into the flanks or rear of already engaged enemies.
Are we talking heavy billman here econ?
Have they lost their anti cavalry bonuses?
Have they lost their anti cavalry bonuses?
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