What happened to spears?

**econ21** · 11-13-2006, 18:02

Yes, there may be a SP balance issue with spears - at least for the English. (Maybe some other factions have decent well armoured spears?) Looking at the stats, it is hard to see why you would not just go with armoured swordsmen or dismounted feudal knights. They cost only fractionally less in upkeep (the purchase cost is much higher, but that is less important apart from in MP). And while they don't have spears, their much higher defence probably means they probably can cope with cav more or less as well. Plus they can slice through most infantry and are ideal for defending towns.

I guess the English spears are just supposed to represent low grade "fodder" troops that you have to use in the early game and can get free in cities. It would be nice to have some dismounted armoured knights with anti-cav spears/lances, however. I'll swear I saw something like that in one old screenshot. I believe that was mainly how the English used their dismounted knights - as an anti-cav shield for their archers, often with cut down lances as "spears".

One historical tactic that belatedly occurred to me was using the English archer's stakes and then putting swords behind them. Would only work on the defensive though. And would the AI be crazy enough to charge them?

**Sheogorath** · 11-13-2006, 20:18

Didnt some early preview mention that English archers special ability would be setting up stakes? That would be awsome >_>

Well, I killed the Scots prior to their developing any serious military in my English campaign. Italian Spear Militia seem a bit tougher, but they still dont stand a chance against a well organized knight charge, and foot knights cut them into tiny chunks in a matter of seconds.

Ill test some spear units in various battles when I get home, maybe do a report on which ones are good at what :P

**AussieGiant** · 11-13-2006, 20:45

Hi Econ and Sheogorath,

I can tell you from looking at the unit line ups that the English were always going to be lacking in the spear department. Basically the English spear units are just that...Fodder. You will have to look at other options for this faction.

The only unit that sticks out as really anti cavalry and "spearish" (new work that!!) is:

Armoured Sergeants:

Armoured Sergeants are professional warriors, drawn from the lower classes. They have some skill in combat and are well equipped with long spears, large shields and mail armour. They're very solid defensive units, able to resist attacks from both foot and horse, so long as they are well supported. If necessary they can form a defensive circle.

and these fella's:

Dismounted English Knights

English knights often chose to fight dismounted. With their fearsome poleaxes, they can crush enemy infantry and fend off any horseman.

As far as I can tell they are your advanced anti cav / spear units. Give em a try and let me know!!

**Throumbaris** · 11-13-2006, 20:58

Originally Posted by AussieGiant

Hi Econ and Sheogorath,

I can tell you from looking at the unit line ups that the English were always going to be lacking in the spear department. Basically the English spear units are just that...Fodder. You will have to look at other options for this faction.

The only unit that sticks out as really anti cavalry and "spearish" (new work that!!) is:

Armoured Sergeants:

Armoured Sergeants are professional warriors, drawn from the lower classes. They have some skill in combat and are well equipped with long spears, large shields and mail armour. They're very solid defensive units, able to resist attacks from both foot and horse, so long as they are well supported. If necessary they can form a defensive circle.

and these fella's:

Dismounted English Knights

English knights often chose to fight dismounted. With their fearsome poleaxes, they can crush enemy infantry and fend off any horseman.

As far as I can tell they are your advanced anti cav / spear units. Give em a try and let me know!!

Unfortunately england cant recruit Armoured Sergeants or any sergeants at all. As for the dismounted knights, well they basically chop up anything. I have to disagree that the levy spearmen are useless, they are cheap and with full armour upgrade they can take almost anything. I would love to see some sort of good spear unit for the english though.

**Herkus** · 11-13-2006, 21:31

Even well armoured spearmen are useless.
Made test battle on flat ground between peasant archer unit and Italian milita spearmen unit with max armour upgrade.
Archers killed one third of spearmen shooting directly at them.
This was unlike even in RTW when shooting directly at well armoured infantry wouldn't cause much casualties.

**Dr_Who_Regen#4** · 11-13-2006, 21:35

I think we also need a test of a cavalry unit charging the infantry, not how many an archer unit can take out...

**Throumbaris** · 11-13-2006, 21:41

Yes tests arent real examples of battles in the campaign.

**Shaun** · 11-13-2006, 21:47

The reason spear men are so poor is because of their low defence stats. There are no heavy spearmen anymore (as in MTW there were Chivalric Sergeants and Order foot soldiers to name a few). The best spear units are the pikemen (most factions dont get these), sergeants are poor as well (Italian spear militia have higher def stats) and armoured sergeants are only marginally better. What is needed is a unit of Heavy spearmen avaliable to all Catholic factions and the Byzantines. Why did they not include any decent spearmen? There is also a lack of swordsmen, the only sword foot unit you get until late on are dismounted knights.

**Herkus** · 11-13-2006, 21:59

Originally Posted by Dr_Who_Regen#4

I think we also need a test of a cavalry unit charging the infantry, not how many an archer unit can take out...

Made test with mailed knights vs Italian militia spear having max armour upgrade.
The ground was flat and spearmens were on defensive stance. On the direct charge knights swept through the spearmen line leaving only 8 to run away. Must say that only 20 knights were alive. Massacre was very fast.

Originally Posted by Shaun

The reason spear men are so poor is because of their low defence stats. There are no heavy spearmen anymore (as in MTW there were Chivalric Sergeants and Order foot soldiers to name a few). The best spear units are the pikemen (most factions dont get these), sergeants are poor as well (Italian spear militia have higher def stats) and armoured sergeants are only marginally better. What is needed is a unit of Heavy spearmen avaliable to all Catholic factions and the Byzantines. Why did they not include any decent spearmen? There is also a lack of swordsmen, the only sword foot unit you get until late on are dismounted knights.

I don't think that game lacks heavy spearmen. The same Italian milita with max armour upgrade has full mail coat with plate armour details.

**AussieGiant** · 11-14-2006, 12:22

Originally Posted by Throumbaris

Unfortunately england cant recruit Armoured Sergeants or any sergeants at all. As for the dismounted knights, well they basically chop up anything. I have to disagree that the levy spearmen are useless, they are cheap and with full armour upgrade they can take almost anything. I would love to see some sort of good spear unit for the english though.

Hi Throumbaris,

Why can't you recruit Armoured Sergents? They are in the unit list for the English. Are you sure?

I also agree with you about the flexibility of the weaopn and armour options. These maybe the solution.

Please keep in mind though that the English were not really a spear oriented army. It's just a weakness of the faction I suggest.

**econ21** · 11-14-2006, 12:28

I don't think the English get armoured spears in the campaign.

BTW, regarding my early comment on swords vs knights. I was besieging a castle last night and a defending unit of French knights (a general's unit with 2 HP) sallied out to charge my swordsmen pushing a siege tower. It was ugly but I am not convinced my spears would have done significantly better. It's a kind of mutual assured destruction. I guess the English just have to accept this kind of attrition.

**AussieGiant** · 11-14-2006, 12:32

"I don't think the English get armoured spears in the campaign."

Really!!?? They are listed in the English unit section. Is this a mistake by IGN econ?

**Eques** · 11-14-2006, 12:36

What i deslike more about these "new spear" units is that they dont act like spearmans! Im talking about units like Pikemans, not the spearmans using small sticks and a shield. They seen to like more of their second weapon: swords.
For example, do you see they marching like those old phalanx keeping their spears down? NO! They raise their pikes even when they march.
Sometimes i feel like their pikes are just for show...
Forgive me if im wrong, cuz my game didnt arriived yet and till now im just playing the demo over and over again.