The seriousness of marriage alliances

[Tamur]

hi all,

I am wondering, do we have any data on whether alliances forged (or strengthened) by the marriage of a princess actually do live up to the manual's statement that "A marriage alliance is serious, and both parties are expected to honour the deal." ?

I don't have the game yet, just reading the manual and wondered whether the manual writers were merely waxing poetic here.

[maestro]

Odd - I hadn't noticed that marrying my pricess into a faction gets me an alliance. Maybe it's only when you marry a member of the royal family: I always seem to only be able to find unmarried generals.

[Jambo]

It has to be the faction heir. I got a marriage alliance with the English this way...

[Tamur]

Is that alliance holding well, Jambo? Perhaps you haven't played into that game enough to know, but it would be interesting to know whether those sorts of alliances can truly be relied on.

[Jambo]

Yeah, it lasted surprisingly well! In fact I was beginning to worry about the soppy English. Relations did worsen eventually and war broke out, but not for about 50 or so turns.

[Basileus]

Best way to get a good alliance in my opinion, every time ive used marriage to seal an alliance its been sollid, alliances other wise break easely otherwise.

[reconspy]

Yeah, marriage alliances are solid. Now, that does not mean that the AI won't "backstab" you - they will. But there is some logic to it (or maybe it's wishful thinking).

(H/H) As France, I kicked off the game by marrying the princess to the heir of England. Now, the alliance between our two kingdoms was solid for 50 turns. War only broke out when my King died. Why is this relevant? Well, in this situation the English now had a claim to the French throne (have a look at the family tree in this situation and you'll see).

Now, is this a conincidence or something else? Who knows? But in some ways, it does make sense. Unfortunately, the AI is not able to (or maybe unwilling to?) break the agreements first which results in them getting bad reputations. But then, maybe that's part of the whole "surprise attack".

[derfinsterling]

In MTW, you supposebly were able to get the lands of your ally if you married your heir or a princess to them and all of them died (supposebly, because in all my MTW games the no family ever died out).

Does this happen with marriage alliances in M2TW as well?
I've got one now with Sicily - had to pay them through the nose to get that alliance, but I had the cash and I really, really needed some allies. Since my diplomats can't negotiate squat, I took them on on their offer.

[Widget Maker]

Well I married my faction Heir off to the HRE to improve relations (along with 15000 bribe), They promptly seiged my closest town a couple of turns late. All it did was give a Normal alliance, better relations may have given trade rights as well , can't remember 100%

[chunkynut]

I've had 2 alliances by marriage and both were stead fast until my ever expanding assassin training scheme hit the spainish (first alliance) and the polish (second alliance), diplomatic faux pars were made by me (I tried to kill a family member ;) ) so I got a war with spain and a uneasy peace with poland.

I've been the one who back stabs so ...

[Kobal2fr]

@reconspy : I've had the reverse in my last campaign - as the English I managed to have Constance (the 5 charm princess the French start with) marry my not-so-charming prince. The alliance held until 1150ish, so roughly 35 turns, until they marched on Caen but I do believe I asked for it :

First, I had trained my assassins against theirs (didn't get caught and killed, but failed twice so maybe they knew it was me), and then I'd seen whole stacks move around the Paris region, brushing the frontier then going back for a few turns before that. I figured they really wanted to have a go, but the marriage thing held them back. I built a small army in Caen just in case, then the Council asked me to take Bruges. I didn't really want to since I first wanted to finish with the conquest of the British Isles, but I needed the money, so off I sent the army, leaving a skeletal garrison inside. Next turn, bam, French invasion. Like I said, I asked for it.

Don't think it had anything to do with succession, though former-prince Rufus was indeed king at the time.

[LordKhaine]

In MTW, you supposebly were able to get the lands of your ally if you married your heir or a princess to them and all of them died (supposebly, because in all my MTW games the no family ever died out).

That happened to me once. I gained all of scandinavia that way. Came to me as a bit of a suprise when it happened.

As for the subject, yes I've found them more stable. In one game I had an ally with 2 marriages between our family. Needless to say that alliance lasted a long time.

[Maurus]

In one of my spanish campaigns (H/H), I had a marriage alliance with bith the danes and the french,

Now the french were being destroyed by the relocated english (they had been kicked out of the british isles by the scots), so I decided to do something about it, and attacked english holdings in northern france (after getting military access from the desperate french), however I didn't wanted to take any chances and so I decided to reinforce my french frontier garrisons and I sent a diplomant to give money every turn so to keep the relations at perfect with the french, also I gave the first territory that I got conquered back to france, however before I could get a seconds one, the french attacked one of my frontier cities and thus betraying me, needles to say I apologized to the english and proceeded to wipe the floor with france

Evere since that, I never bothered again with marriage alliances, though I may give it a try again as this happened before the patch, perhaps with the patch the AI actions will be a little more logical

[grapedog]

I haven't really had a long time to test it, but I had an alliance with the Polish. I got a princess and married her off to the faction heir of poland, when I mouse over the little faction description where it shows reliability and relations it now shows that we have an alliance and 1 marriage between us. I'm hoping they honor it, I have quarrel with the Polish nor was I planning on it. Perhaps a marriage can strengthen a current allaince, but a marriage between two factions who were not allied previously is not as strong?

Kind of like the point system for guilds for example. having an alliance is 10 points towards not stabbing you in the back. Having an alliance then adding a marriage strengthens that bond? I don't know for sure, I'll have to see how plucky the polish are feeling in another 45 turns or so.

[edbenedict77]

Late to the party as usual, I now have a marriage alliance with the Milanes, (i'm playing as the English), My King Rufus the Tyrant is at the ripe old age of 60, will have to see if Milanese will break this marriage alliance once my king dies, cos i do have a common border with Milan.

[Beggarman]

At best, it seems you can get two marriage alliances. But Marriage Alliences do seem rather robust: I went from being poor or abysmal with england as the HRE, to being Good, and it held for a fairly long time. It's important to make sure you're not untrustworthy, If you can stay remotely normal or even nice to people, you can maintain marriage alliances for a long time.

Then again, as the HRE I've been able to hold an Alliance with the Pope and Hungary for 50+ turns. Gifting "attack rebels" to both and the occasional 1k or so florins(about every turn for a while, often alternating), I've been able to keep the Pope and Hungary very happy, giving me a rather free hand in Italy. Strangely enough, remaining friends takes more effort than teeing people off :D

[edbenedict77]

sorry about late posting, but in my present game as h/h hre, my starting marriage alliance with danes, lasted 15~18 turns Only :( they came knocking at frankfurth with a big army heahed by a captain so easily beat them back with 3 start general :) the trick is to attack the "captain's unit and kill/capture him, the rest just routs :D, i'm taking the game quite slow. So far 18 regions at 59th turn, and have been excommunicated Only once for 1 turn when i took rome, with pope defending it :) :) (my "game win" requirement as HRE!) and now trying to get into a marriage allaince with the poles but since i have a common border province they are quite reluctant and my heir is becoming an old bachelor :( i think it's quite hard to get marriage allaince later on in the game, but then again i maybe wrong :)

[Elluko1997]

If you have a marriage alliance and a son is born which faction does he join?

[Sir Robin]

I have been able to get descent alliances with marriage but it does depend on the situation. As a Byz, H/VH, player I usually aim for Hungary first. They usually betray me 50 to 100 turns in no matter what.

However I have had alliances with the Turks that lasted for 100 turns or more. That just doesn't make sense to me since the Venetians usually betray me less than twenty turns after signing an alliance no matter what.

I usually try to get two marriages with Hungary and this keeps them off my back for a while. Marriages can make the peace last longer but they will turn on you sooner or later no matter what you do.

[maestro]

In my latest campaign as the English (H/VH), my very first move was to marry my faction heir to the French princess to enable me to have years of peace with the Froggies and build up my forces whilst i take a few rebel settlements to start with. Only thing is - i'm about 30 turns into the game and the French got excommunicated. The Pope, with whom I have 9/10 standing and who is my ally, has asked me to break my alliance with the dirty, heathen Frenchmen. I think my standing with the Pope is good enough for me to ignore him and keep the alliance. I am "reliable" in diplomacy and don't wish for that to change. the Pope can be bought or relations improved with religious acts and I think maintining my alliance with the French is more to my benefit, especially since the Danes have just invaded

[Marquis of Roland]

Playing English, got me that french princess right off the bat and frenchies haven't attacked me since. 1st crusade started about 10 turns ago though so not too far along yet. However, after my king takes my only full stack to crusade, frenchies move a 3/4 stack snooping around angers looking shady.

"The French cannot be trusted!" :

P.S.
Wonder if the alliance ends when the happy couple dies

[Whacker]

P.S.
Wonder if the alliance ends when the happy couple dies

Doubtful that the alliance ends, but nevertheless an outstanding question, and one that you should post right away to the research wizards in the campaign mechanics research thread, post-haste! It would be good to know if one or both of the couple dies, if the alliance weakens any. Also, it'd be great to be able to see the actual values assigned to the relationships between factions, through either something that extracts them from a savegame, or even better, a console command that can let us view and/or change them.

[Shimmeringsea]

On two occasions my council has suggested that a marriage between my English princess and one of the English generals would be favourable - and the faction has between 6 and 10 turns to arrange the matrimony and complete the mission. How do you arrange it?

The princess character does not see the general character as being available for marriage - I've tried shacking them up in the same castle or town, kept them together on campaign - but come the final turn allocated by the IA, the mission is deemed failed. Any suggestions would be welcome...

Mark