Crusades Campaign: Byzantium

[frogbeastegg]

This topic is for the Byzantine faction in Kingdoms expansion's Crusades campaign.

[Patricius]

I have found that the Crusader factions tend to be friendly.

There are only two great challenges. The Latin Crusaders, basically three half sized stack of Venetian troops will arrive at Constantinople after not too many turns. Most of their forces are ranged or mounted, or both. Destroying them entirely is an idea as they will hire mercenaries to make good losses. I nearly lost my capital to them, having ignored them after I had almost entirely destroyed their forces. Secondly the Turks have some fairly large forces close to your capital. I attacked almost immediately with what I had in my Anatolian cities, and Constantinople. Those Anatolians possesions of the Turks are not conected to the their middle Eastern possessions, so provided that some forces are kept around Adana (Osman will appear there with a large stack also) and Theodosiopolis few problems will crop up. The province adjoined Theodosiopolis is gold rich (forget the name) and is generally sheltered by some Antiochene possession, so it is well worth taking.

Attacking the Egyptians from the rear while they are occupied with the Kingdom of Jerusalem to take the major objective of Alexandria is usually not that hard. Cairo will probably have Saladin, making it a harder target. I confined myself to taking Alexandria, making peace, and allowing the Egyptians to make life hard for the Kingdom of Jerusalem. Given time the Egyptians tend to be the strongest faction in that portion of the map by far.

I never felt threatened by the Mongols. The Turks usually deal with them effectively, and there are no Timurids, which was a disappointment.

[hellraiser]

Just finished it on M/M (didn't bother to fight any battle myself ) in 87 turns.

What I did:

1. attacked the turks ASAP and managed to conquer the provinces of central asia minor and regions near Trebizond pretty fast - the opposition was a joke, they didn't counterattack a single city and against my 3 generals hitting in one place, nothing could survive.
2. Very few buildings produced but mass produced every kind of available units - strategy was quantity over quality (pretty historically unrealistic because at this stage, the byz empire was pretty much broken, no way they could have amassed the huge number of units i did in such a short time)
3. Alliances with the latin kingdoms - they never betrayed me :)
4. After kicking the turks from the above mentioned provinces, I destroyed Egypt. The reasons for this action were to not allow the egyptians to become too powerful, the remaining possesions of the turks were far away, Antioch fell to a Egypt led Jihad so I could take it fast without breaking the alliance woth Jerusalem kingdom. In Egypt I massacred the cities to keep the garrison requirements low so I could kill them very fast.
5. Meanwhile, new stacks were built to reinforce the troops advancing to the remains of the ottoman empire. A force led by 3 badass generals finally managed to destroy the turks and I found myself clicking <end turn> button for 5 turns so the 'hold baghdad for at least 10 turns> condition can be met :)
6. Mongols? Who are they... I used a spy to keep track of their whereabouts for some time, never encountered them on the battlefield...I guess the turks kicked their butts.
7. 10 stars generals were pretty common in my armies :) Use them to fight fight fight, they rank up fast. They even got some artefacts, a little thing that I enjoyed :P

Key strategic observations:

1. Trebizond - very important city . It is your troops supply point for getting the nearby provinces AND protect Constantinople against the Venetians (Smyrna also plays this role). Use the boats to ferry troops.
2. Rhodes/Smyrna/southern turkish conquered castles - your base for the campaign against Egypt. Again use navy to ferry troops where needed.
3. Best time to strike Egypt is after they send troops for a Jihad - this will leave their african cities pretty empty - I used 3 stacks to attack 3 cities simultaneously.
4. Massive use of watchtowers and spies as spotters - Asia minor is a tricky land - enemy troops can sneak thru mountain passes and snatch a town or two.
5. Assassins - I was surprised how many '95%' my assassins had - so use them on a large scale - priests, merchants, heretics fall like flies. 6. Priests - they convert in no time so use plenty of them.
7. Ultra agressive strategy plays well - don't let your enemy get strong. Byzantium is insanely rich and can afford to literally swarm their opponents from the headstart. This includes the use of massacres in distant provinces because speed is of the essence - you cannot waste too many turns converting, building garrisons and building to quell the rebellious citizens. Kill them and move forward. Provinces in central Asia Minor were spared though because I needed a solid cash base. In this provinces I occupied the cities, built everything to make them happy and converted them to orthodoxy asap. Some of them were already converted by the time I reached them :)
8. Keep the good relations with the Latins kingdoms. If needed, offer them gifts - I even offered them provinces that I could not keep due to rebellions ;)
9. As the previous poster adviced, kill off the venetians. Don't just repel the assault on your capital but pursue and erradicate them. Thus you can free a lot of Constantinople's troops for another duties.

[Gray Beard]

I just finished playing the Crusade campaign in Kingdoms.

I agree more or less with the other posters. It is basically the strategy that I advocated in the basic 1.2 game. The difference is that once you remove the Turks and eliminate the Venetians (Actually the 4th Crusade) you don't have to worry about Europe.

This expansion is really well done. I like the way that the Byzantine troop list has been reworked.

[TheLastPrivate]

Solid posts by others above. Consolidate asia minor and move to egypt.

One thing i might add is that the crusader factions will have hard time with gold (especially with mongols, turks, and egypts rushing them), try buying their coastline cities/castles from time to time so that you may expand and acquire those jackpot cities without making war.

Also i noticed that the byzantine roster, as strengthened as it seems, is still very sub-par compared to other units equivalent in other factions.

Also the greek firethrower is not as effective against calvary like you see inthe intro clip as they don't fire when enemies come in range - i find it very strange that they sometimes fire as soon as they can while sometimes they just stand there with "firing missles" status but nothing comes out, only to get massacred in melee. Also they will not fire behind ur troops, but will shoot through wholes in the line and consequently burning your own troops as well. Quite difficult unit to master. this unit would godly if byzantines had pikemen of some sort - which is another thing the byzantines lack badly, again.

In the end I ended up massing vards and archontoupois (2gold chevs from training thx to crusader castles), but i really wanted to utilize the firethrower better.... i wish u could put them in a single rank

[CountMRVHS]

I too had trouble with the firethrower unit in open battle. They don't skirmish, so they'll end up fighting the inevitable AI cav charge. Where they really come into their own is in siege defences.

I had a battle in Constantinople against 2 Venetian stacks (the 4th Crusade), attacking from either end of the city. When they punched a hole through my wall, I had the Greek Firethrowers there off to the side, turned to Fire At Will, so that anything coming through the breach was in range. On the other side of the gap I had some infantry, as well as some infantry just behind the firethrowers. But it never came down to melee: the firethrowers did their thing and when the enemy tried to charge through the breach they'd be incinerated and rout. The combination of being fired upon from archers on the walls and the towers, as well as being surrounded by enemies and burned to a crisp was too much for most units.

These guys are worth their weight in gold in a siege situation -- it's worth it to snap up all the merc firethrowers you can and put one in each city you think might be attacked. In open battle, the situation would have to be just right. Against the cav/archer heavy Turks, the firethrowers won't see much action, but maybe against the Crusaders if you do go to war with them and they don't bring much cav to the battle. I imagine if you could hold a battle-line of Crusader inf with your own inf and then get firethrowers around to a flank, it would be quite rewarding.

[Patricius]

I notice that the Byzantines get gunners in some castles before gun powder. Buying cities is good, but remember, as I did not, that in a short campaign all another faction needs to win is the defeat of some rival, and nothing else. I ended up giving cities to the Antiochenes avoid defeat through their elimination.

[uruk-hai]

hit the truks hard and fast.take some troops from your strating citys and constaninople.once you got the army ready to attack do one of the following.have each army attack a town,or send half your forces to attack one town and the other half to attack some other town.remember to build a new army in constaninople.to get ready for vinice.assasssins have been are a lot more usefull,then ever.use them to destroy building killing other assassins,spys, killing enemy leaders,and others.keep a eye on koj becurse they may get there but kicked by egypt,then you may have to worry about a stronger and more powerfull egypt.witch will be vrey bad if you get a jihad called on you.


remember to build new troops when need it to wipe out the truks.when vinice comes they should be easy to wipe out with a army of varangian guard and byzantine infantry,and maybe a few militia archers.that all you will need when fighting be hide walls.the battle for constantinople so be easy or some what hard.make sure to wipe out vinice for good after that battle or they may sack some of your other citys.

if you can try to take over as many rebel towns as you can,so other can't get there hands on them.




use spys and assassins to make antioch rebel.so all you have to do if fight rebels to get it.once the truks have no more citys near the heart of your empire ,train a eilite army or two at trebizond to attack the last castle the truks have.witch i think is sorth east.after the last truk castle falls they will be vrey easy to wipe out.so after there last castle falls all you need to do is kill what is left of the truks witch should be easy with the armys you have or train 2 more armys then you should be ready to wipe them out for good.

[IvarrWolfsong]

RE: Flamethrowers (I know they want us to call them firethrowers but we know what they really are).

I found that the best way to use em is to put them behind your infantry near the flanks with Fire at Will off.

When the enemy infantry is engaging yours, bring them out along side and burn the enemies from the side. Make sure you angle them a little wide so you arent squirting molten lava on you friend Dmitri over there... see the following masterpiece illustrations...

inf ---------------------------- inf
flame __ ........................ __flame




Flame \ ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,enemy,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, / Flame
...........inf------------------------------inf


***NOT THIS***

Flame / ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,enemy,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, \ Flame
.........inf------------------------------inf

[Boyar Son]

new units for this faction?

[Gray Beard]

To answer the question above.

A new Super Kataphraxtoi about the same stats as Knight Templar
A new mercenary Swordman
A new Militia Swordman
Greek Fire throwers (They have recently found some of the flamethrowers they used!)

Of these the best, IMO is the militia swordman because it fills a hole in the force list

Now if they'd only add an armoured Spearman and if these could become available in the normal game we'd have a happy camper

[Artorius Maximus]

Now if they'd only add an armoured Spearman and if these could become available in the normal game we'd have a happy camper

Agreed, Creative Assembly needed to do that. I cannot think of a logical reason why they didn't....

[Boyar Son]

Agreed, Creative Assembly needed to do that. I cannot think of a logical reason why they didn't....

maybe they didnt actually have that.

[Boyar Son]

Finnaly got it!!!!!!!! (the game)!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1
Execute prisoners. If you need money ransom, if not kill 'em or they'll come back with experiance and friends.
2
ally with Antioch, you'll be able to buy off land from them to save time instead of conquering.
3
Leave constantinople's troops where they are, so they can repel the Venetians.
4
Take constantinople's troops out by sea once you defeated venice.
5
switch some eastern asia-minor cities into castles, because western and central turkey has none!
6
dont be afraid to attack by sea, it will help you win before time runs out.

[TheLastPrivate]

By the way Byzantine gunners are bugged. They are created from the highest level of archery range, but Byzantines cannot build them. Only option is to capture a castle with the highest level of archery range and you can train them from there.

[McDoogle]

defended constantnople with them and both the units just stood there and were run down i managed to save three out of 20!

however anoter day i moved my king out and towards another city and picked up one firethrower on the way no other units just the throwers and him, was ambushed by rebels numbering around 300, and i bet them on an open field ha ha they charged at me and the throwers scared the hell outta them...none survived

As far as you all worring about he vientians invading, ha ha i heard em say they were coming i had two units in the city both achers, i admitt i freaked but i managed to get 6 vanguards and i held the first army off then managed to get the fire throwers and archers etc and held off three full stacks.

I think the byzentines are awesome to be honest, i havent even bothered wit their cavalry yet but i will shall, i have just finished asia minor and i am about to move on and take egypt from under their noses ten maybe get a fleet and take jerusalem straight from them sack it and let them have it back then do i agian for fun

[Gray Beard]

There are a couple of good mods for download at the Total War Center that put all of the Kingdom troops into the regular game


http://www.twcenter.net/forums/downl...p?do=cat&id=26

There are two parts to the Retro-fit mod

[Matty]

To make serious money, head east to the gold around Tblisi and build mine upgrades and get a nice merchant to sit on them.

Use the flamethrowers against enemy troops pinned on the walls by shooting up at them from below - instant rout.

The Ventians died at the walls of Constantinople pretty easily, but the Mongols have just turned up. Whether they will appear in my lands is unclear, but I hope they represent something more of a challenge.

[aimlesswanderer]

The Byzantines were surprisingly easy, given that CA graded them as 'Hard'. Just used existing troops to overrun the Turks in Asia Minor, and then go for the Caucases and the amazingly rich mines.

When the Venetians turned up, I scrambled to build heavy infantry in Constantinople and rush up cavalry. By the time they got close to the city it was full of heavy infantry, and they walked past. Am wiping them out with an all cavalry army. They have alot of $, so I've made alot of $ off them after ransoming their king and such for a motza.

Up to about turn 28, have piles of $ and the outcome is a foregone conclusion.

Strangely, my family doesn't seem to like having kids - I have 1/2 the no of family members than provinces, and have as many adopted/Man of the Hours as naturals.

[Gray Beard]

maybe they didnt actually have that.

That in some respects is not the point.The reason they might not have had some of these troops is because in real history they were slowly losing territory and manpower and needed to field troops quickly. If history had gone just a little differently, for example if they had won the battle of Manzikirt then who knows what would have happened. Or if they'd gotten a very aggressive military genius emperor who reorganized their military or just gotten lucky once or twice.

It the difference between realism and realistic I guess

[Sheogorath]

Funny story, guys.
Venice arrived as per schedual, and in an attempt to throw them for a loop, I sent an assassin after their leader. Well, that guy failed, got himself caught and ended with a declaration of war.
I'd been busy in Constantinople, though, and the city was full of Varangians, archers and all sorts of nasty fellows, as well as an armour factory.
Funny thing. The AI refuses to siege it. So I'm using the Venetian royal family as assassin practice now, although they all seem to have the 'overly cautious' trait when they spawn new fellows.

On that subject...the Venetians seem to get a LOT of free generals, IE: Every time I kill one, a new one spawns the next turn.
Funny, aint it?

AS to troops...I've noticed that Byz horse archers chew through Hasham like theyre nothing. It took a full thirty seconds for five units of various HA's to wipe out a unit of Hasham. DISMOUNTED Hasham are a bit more of a challenge, but seem to be very vulnerable when it comes to attacks to the back. Especially after being prepared with a nice arrow bombardment.

The old RTW 'Shoot them until you run out of arrows and then retreat' tactic works quite well for a Byzantine army. Five or six units of HA's (or as many as you feel like micromanaging) and you can take out a lot of your foes before you crush them with superior numbers.

[TheLastPrivate]

It's not just the venetians, it includes you.

If your royal family is dwindling for whatever reason (just started campaign, all became homosexual, assassinated, black death, etc...)
you get the "Candidate for adoption" window at new turn. same thing is happening for the venetians and it doesnt' cost money to adopt either.

Of course the geenrals bodyguard has like 450gold upkeep or something..but anyway...

[Malkut]

I too had trouble with the firethrower unit in open battle. They don't skirmish, so they'll end up fighting the inevitable AI cav charge. Where they really come into their own is in siege defences.

I keep flamethrowers behind my front line. When the enemy infantry engages, I run around beside my men and hit their flank with a blast or two, and retreat back if there is enough of an enemy force left to attack, although there is generally whatever few enemies remain are running for the border. Flamethrowers are incredible units, and you should always carry one or two with you.

[kitbogha]

Flamethrowers are incredible units, and you should always carry one or two with you.

I agree, they can be absolutely devastating in the right circumstances, but you need to give them protection against enemy infantry and cavalry, because skirmishers they ain't. I tend to flank a couple of flamer units with spearmen switched to guard them and this does seem to work. Additionally you can have some light cavalry on hand to mop up any routing enemies, because they create havoc with enemy morale. A cunning ruse to allow extra damage is to place them on a rise or hillock as they can flame opponents as they struggle uphill.
I have heard a lot of crticism of the flamethrower squads and I feel that it is pretty unwarranted at times. It would be cool to base a stack around them, maybe five or six units with infantry and cavalry support.

[c4stigator]

Hmm, I can't say too much about the campaign at this point (apart from vh/vh isn't that challenging), but I will give my two cents on the new troop list.

Still no proper spearmen, which is a shame, but I guess it's made up for in the abundance of other infantry. Still, the new Poletia (sp?) infantry seem pretty useless, but the Zweilanders are a good unit to support your Varangains with. The new cataphracts I just use to replace the old ones; there's not much difference in the price or stats. Haven't tried the new gunners yet; though I imagine their the same as other handgunners? To be honest, they look slightly worse.

Onto the firethrowers then; which seem to be the Byzantine Empire's new poster boys. I have to agree with the previous posters; they are battle-winners in their own right. However, how to use them to their full effect is definatley difficult. At first I experimented using them in between my infantry, to take full advantage of the flanks of 2 enemy units when the charge hits home. As I began to lose ground, they could retreat back to the next line ect.

I = Infantry (Varangians/Latinkon/Zweilanders)
F = Firethrowers, obviously
S = Spearmen
A = Guard Archers

I,,,,,I,,,,,I,,,,,I
,,,F,,,,F,,,,F,,,
S,,,,S,,,,S,,,,S
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
A,,,,A,,,,A,,,,,A
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I tested this tactic on the Turks with mixed results. Cavalry charges between the gaps were the biggest problem, but covering them with spearmen sort of works, if you can get the firethrowers out of combat fast enough (ahh, if only they could skirmish!). The battle is hard to describe, but I think the Turks just beat my troops quality-wise (1 general, 2 of the new cataphracts, 2 vardariotai, 2 Varangians, 2 Dismounted Latinkons, 4 Guard archers, 4 spearmen and 3 firethrowers VS 1 general, 2 heavy cavalry, 2 light cavalry, 5 heavy spearmen, 5 swordsmen and 5 archers). Most of my infantry were killed, and my overall negligence saw my archers get flanked, and my cavalry butchered by spearmen. However, my Firethrowers, who had been taking a beating, managed to rout the enemy, mainly by rushing to hotspot to hotspot, and making them even hotter. I won, but lost 300 more men (800 all told). This tactic looks good in theory, but needs a lot of work.

Another tactic I tried, this time against the Venetians, was sticking them far on the flank with the cavalry, ready to rush in behind the Venetians, and hit them in the rear. Ultimatley this failed too, as the cavalry cant hang around protecting them and are just fooder for archers. So, it leaves the Firethrowers without protection. In the end, i just ran them back behind my own lines and kept moving them to hotspots, as before. It works, but it means you allways have to keep one eye on them at all times.

Another problem with them is that fire does not differentiate between friend and foe, so using them on a unit in combat, means that you'll almost allways hit your allies aswell. Thankfully, they rarely rout, and your safe.

So, overall, these guys can rout any unit no problem, but lack skirmish mode, thus you allways have to keep them moving yourself, which is a pain (AI management is an option, but I rarely trust it to do any good).

[pdoyle007]

Twice in recent games when sieging an enemy I gained a foothold on the walls with ladders and some infantry, then moved my firethrowers on to the walls and had them fire along the walls at the remaining defenders. This worked brilliantly as they had no where to run and as I advanced along I began shooting down on to the defenders waiting behind the gate.

Enemies would rout, gather in the town centre, then return and get the same treatment.

In open battle I try to place them on the end of an infantry line (best against the catholic states) allow them to engage then attack from the flank. On occasion I've waited till the Templar spearmen are aimed at a unit, then dropped it back a little as they continue to be aimed but simply by standing still the firethrowers suddenly have a clear line of sight

[KingKnudthebloodthirsty]

i prepared bit by bit for capital defense from turn 1. after it becomes clear theyre arriving in a few turns, i pumped out units like crazy in Constantinople and i even ship a lot of my cavalry from Smyrna. Both are EXCELLENT troop centers and i easily fielded a powerful army within a few turns, ready to destroy venice. And destroy they did. venice lost every battle i had with it and soon, it turned into a game of cat and mouse, venice withdrawing into the wilderness west of Constantinople, hoping to get away into the woods and get support from local mercs and its the chasing them that got annoying, not fighting. But despite their efforts, they encountered such losses they turn out to be left with only one Genreral, Boniface, and no troops. I was able to catch Boniface and he was forced to make a valiant but completely futile stand. with him dead, venice's campaign is a complete fiasco and my troops are ready to take on the TUrks, and Egypt.

[KingKnudthebloodthirsty]

Oh, a little misunderstanding. I did also take on the Turks on turn1. But the war to defend the capital gave Turkey a breathing space, or i should say a pause, from my relentless attacks. Now im on the Turks more ruthless than ever.

[xooniu]

thanks

[oz_wwjd]

I've been using the flameboys as part of my army from the first. Agreed thay do take a lot of micromanagement to get the best from them,but the loss of morale that comes from being barbecued is worth the effort. So far my nest result is having 2 units of them target Osman when he appreared and kill him instantly, along with most of his army as I had no fewer than 6 flamethrowers, and Jan heavy infantry rushing an army than had an front-line composed of flamethrowers resulted in a mass rout,almost on impact..