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Thread: Spain

  1. #31

    Default Re: Spain

    playing on h/h

    i started off by allying with both the portugese and the moors.

    i musterd all my forces (leaving toledo unguarded for a couple of turns) and took zaragosa first - as has been mentioned the portugese will get their first and fail in their attempt to take it - thats your chance.

    i decided to wait on valencia - it is a tough city to take, so i thought it was unlikley that the moors would get there before me (which proved to be correct)

    i moved my army (now nearlly a full stack) up into france - i tokk bordeaux off them and Rennes which was rebel. under pressure from the pope I managed to negotiate toulouse off them for a ceasfire ( it came equiped with troops - never done this before imp impressed)

    i then pursuaded the pope to declare crusade on jerusalem. I took a couple of generals, some troops and recruited to full stack with crusade mercs. I had another non-crusading general follow along behind with some milita troops.
    I hired cursade merc boat in south of france. first stop ajaccio, second stop florence. The cusade army moved on imediately after taking these territories and the following non crusade general came in after to garrison the new territories. I recruited more crusade mercs in italy and split into two forces. and moved overland down towards the heel where i recruited two new crusade merc ships.
    next stop durazzo and corinth both byzantine territories. both taken after one turn of seige. ( tip - to garrison territories whilst on crusade move your general out of the crusade stack recruit mercs - put them in the city, move the crusade stack back to the general and rejoin the crusade. I have also noticed that if you leave crusade troops behind in a city they dont desert into thin air, but just stay in the city.)
    The army from corinth moved on to take smryna, whilst the durazzo army too corinth and then byzantium. I ignored nicosia as it was too well defended and moved both armies on to take iconium (also byzantine at this point). i have scurted around adana as it was guarded by almost a full stack of byzantines and i ma about to start moving through the middle east - where helpfully i hhave been able to replenish my severely depleted armies with fresh crusade mercs.
    amusingly when i arrived in anatolia i was aproached by the egyptians for a ceasefire (They own Jerusalem so when i joined the crusade it automatically declared war on them) I was able to get 8grand for this! and im just about to break the peace!
    Ive been left with a very scattered empire so it should be fun connecting the dots. I think the byzantines might take back a few of their cities but i am not too bothered by this as i got a lot of loot from them, plus i think the idea of a crusading army going on the rampage and taking every city they can is quite historical.

    note- i have lost a few troops to desertion, when ive waited to pacify a territory, but not too much, and the cost of rectruiting new mercs pales against the plunder + income from a city.

  2. #32
    Member Member Skott's Avatar
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    Default Re: Spain

    The Portuguese do go for Zaragosa right off but in my campaign they did take it after two turns of sieging it so its not a gurantee they get beaten back. Whats interesting was that in my campaign the Portuguese did it with only two units total. I expected them to lose but they didnt. I guess its safe to say in most cases they lose but one cannot rely on it everytime.

  3. #33

    Default Re: Spain

    Hi, I´ve played a couple of caimpaigns with the spanish.
    O agree with mosto of you that the first you have to do is wait for the portuguese, they are not aragonese i´d like to remark, to attack zaragoza and thn it will be very very easy.
    Pamplona gets blocked and undefended. Portugal then tends to conquer cordoba, but is not easy for they.
    Then I allied with the moors waiting Portugal to wear a bit. In the other side try to ally with english by marriage, and probably you´ll get a nice cpatain, and then attack with your ships french ports, of Toulousse, Rennes and Bordeaux. Shipping should be your main goal because your strategical position. English will attack form northern france. First time, when I succeded allying the english, your princess is not Claudia Schiffer, I got Toulousse and Burdeaux just as a reward for ceasing fire.
    Attack Portugal whnever possible, always Lisboa and Pamplona in the same turn, in a very quick action because you will be excomulgated by the "·$%%# Pope.
    Don´t expand yet to Europe, Bourdeaux and Toulousse is enough. Don´t get Rennes in Bretagne when the council ask you to do so because it will be too far to help them when the french try to recover it. Go for the moors.
    I even joined the crusade and conquer Jerusalem and Acre but had to burn it and lost it later but the money was a great reward for the crusade. I went back with my troops conquering south af africa burning all the cities and keeping Tripoli, argel as castles and marrakesh as city. Priests will be neeeded to keep thes muslims cities in order to convert people.
    I tried to bribe el Cid for a long time but he is not aggresive so wait until he dies and Valencia will be very very easy to conquer. keep it as castle and use it to expand to mediterranean. South of marrakech is a cupole of regions, and the southest has even gold but they are to far and as merchandising is not your principal strength you wont get too much. I conquer it but I regret of doing so. Is a long walk, very long.
    Then, when you have the whole Peninsula, north of africa, and, perhaps, southern france, go with your ships to attack milanese and french in europe and northern italy. They will attack you first so dont bother about diplomacy. And center europe is very vert very funny. Milan, genova and marsella are very good cities and will serve you as starting points to conquer center europe. When the popes asks you to cease fire with french, attack milanese, and viceversa. Maintaining a siege doesn´t count as excomulgating action, and if they try to defend they will be excomulgated.

  4. #34

    Default Re: Spain

    I'm in a very sticky situation with the Spanish now. After easily conquering Iberia early on in the game (something I suggest strongly as it offers a good basis for monetary support during the rest of the game) and eradicating the Moors, I began to build a buffer zone between the rest of Europe and myself, conquered the Western Med Islands and moved to finish the conquest of Africa. All went pretty smoothly with a few bumps on the way until...
    I am at war with the Mongols in the Holy Land, (the point at which my Empire spreads furthes Eastwards is Jerusalem and Jedda). The Russians, who own most of Northern Europe and a large chunk of central Europe, are attacking my buffer states just before Iberia (Toulouse, Bordeaux and Marseille) whilst Milan is attacking my city of Naples. For once I find myself wishing for the Timurids to attack so that Russia will have to redirect its forces...Still got another 50 years til that though!

  5. #35

    Default Re: Spain

    I posted this elsewhere but here goes:

    One of the things I learned in the history of the late Middle Ages was the rise of Spanish dominance towards the end of the Medieval era. Spanish armies from the late 15th century through to the 17th century went relatively undefeated in its major battles, largely through the effective use of its tercio formation. In essence, the formations were pikemen being used in conjuction with firearms, and light infantry.

    In the M2TW description of Spain, they are described as having excellent light infantry. At the end of an era where heavy armor and knights were the dominant force, Spain adopted lighter and more mobile infantry forces. Now while Tercio formations had gunners mixed in with the pikemen and other infantry, the units that come in M2TW are not mixed units. Instead, you have to mix them yourselves.

    So I started up a custom battle and created an army late era professional units of 5 Arquebusiers (meant to do Musketeers but clicked the wrong unit), 3 Gendarmes, 6 Tercio Pikemen, 5 Sword & Buckler Men, and one Late General's Bodyguard.

    I loaded up a French army of Voulgiers, Dismounted Chivalric Knights, Aventuriers, Pikemen, and Lancers/Gendarmes. The French army actually cost more than my army by a significant amount (over 10k florins), but both sides were equal in terms of experience, armor, and weapon upgrades.

    In my formation, I lined up pikemen in a line, at an angle from the corner of the map. The reason for that? Well being near an edge of a map means that the flanks have a smaller amount of room to manuever. As always, picking the right terrain to fight on is a key to victory.

    Then, what I did was, I mixed my gunpowder units in with the first rank just in front of the first rank of pikes. I then put my sword & buckler men within the Tercio formation, about 2-3 ranks deep, in the back. Picture:
    https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...bacca/0001.jpg

    Another view:

    https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...bacca/0002.jpg

    Now why would I do this?

    First, only the first rank of gunners fires, so the back ranks within the pike formation wouldn't affect anything. Next, the gunners will not have any infantry obstructing them, as it would be possible that some gunners won't fire if put behind. Finally, the pikes being there means that no cavalry can be used to attack your gunners while they are shooting at enemy skirmishers or formation.

    With musketeers, and their very long range, being at the front of your formation means that you have an even longer range than before. Thus, you can hit longbowmen before they can even hit your pikemen. If muskteers are put behind pikemen, the first few rows of pikemen may be hit by enemy elite archers without your musketeers being in range.

    There is another benefit - gunners tend to be weak against enemy archer fire, and take lots of casualties. However, while stuck in a pike formation, it's more likely your pikemen take the arrows, and so you can protect your ranks better against enemy skirmishers. Furthermore, this formation tends to prompts the enemy to hit you head on, even when they aren't ready. The reason? First, if they skirmish, your musketeers will likely kill their skirmishers handily. Second, pikemen are so numerous in number, that skirmishing against them will take a VERY long time to kill enough to make a dent, and it's more likely the musketeers will kill all the enemy skirmishers before they make a dent in your numbers. Finally, the musketeers cannot be attacked by enemy cavalry directly in this formation, and enemy archers are more likely to hit your pikemen or overshoot/undershoot the formation (as it is thin facing the enemy).

    Do, however, move your musketeers out to provoke the enemy into attacking you if they are just sitting there out of range to bombard you with artillery, if they brought any.

    If the enemy charge your pikes, the trick is to move your gunners back while you move your sword & buckler men forward. This keeps the gunners out of melee, allows them to continue fire, though now from behind, and the sword & buckler men can fight enemy infantry at the front, while the pikes still protect the sword & buckler from enemy cavalry.

    Your own cavalry must be deployed along the flanks to defend against enemy cavalry. If the enemy cavalry are defeated, you will then conveniently be along the flanks to hit the enemy from the side or from behind.

    https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...bacca/0004.jpg

    Keep your pikemen in guard mode to recieve the enemy charge. Now a lot of people have been saying that pikemen do not attack properly - they actually do, you just have to tell them to attack them. As seen in the picture above, they are attacking the Voulgier's with their pikes. What you do is you have to select your pikemen, and SINGLE right-click the enemy. This worked for me both in and out of guard mode. DOUBLE right clicking the enemy will force your pikemen to run at the enemy and thus they will break formation and drop their pikes. If you single click, they will try to stay in formation and in line and will engage the enemy with pikes. Only if the enemy gets too close/breaks formation will some of them use swords to fight their nearest threat. The rest of the formation, if not hampered, will continue to use pikes.

    As you can see in this picture: https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...bacca/0003.jpg

    My pikemen are advancing with pikes at the enemy unit. This is quite devastating - even against halberds, mounted & dismounted knights, my pikes were able to inflict massive casualties. In fact, once you get some practice with pike formations, you can use pikes on the offensive and to "push" the enemy.

    A few tips:

    -Use the "alt" button to rotate your formation. Holding alt while moving the mouse will rotate the army around its center. It's great for moving your formation to face the enemy if they try to flank.
    -When moving your formation at the enemy, always SINGLE right click a spot either in front or behind the enemy. Do not have them attack or units will start to converge to attack that targetted unit. Furthermore, after you have clicked, you can hold the "shift" button to see where your units will end up. This allows you to adjust the angle and direction of your formation.
    -To attack the enemy with pikes, even in guard mode, make sure you SINGLE right click. On the offensive, if you single right click, pikes will stay in formation and will keep their line intact. As you see in my last picture, the pikes try to stay more or less in a line and will rotate the entire line at a target if the enemy formation is at an awkward angle. Pikes will only be dropped for swords if the formation is too thin, the formation is broken, or there is a more immediate threat to the pikemen than what the formation is targetting (for instnace, a flanker or straggler).
    -Use sword & buckler men to flank or to defend pikes against infantry that are good at killing pikes, such as Zweihanders, other Sword & Buckler, and dismounted knights.

    The weakness of these formations?
    -First, they take a lot of practice, especially pikemen. They are tricky units to get used to.
    -They take a lot of casualties! Late medieval armies got very large in part because they started to trade away armor for firepower. Most of these units aren't armed with shields or heavy plate armor and will thus take lots of casualties from enemy ranged units. Be prepared to lose a large amount of your army to enemy fire, but hey, in MP battles, winning is all that matters ;)
    -Against an enemy that is artillery heavy, your bunched up units will present juicy targets. To counter enemy artillery, either swap in some light cavalry (such as Jinetes), or your own artillery to counter the enemy. Formation positioning is also key - if you can position your units where the artillery has a hard time hitting you, you will also be good. Finally, use your musketeers/ranged units to provoke the enemy into attacking, so they cannot bombard you at will without causing friendly fire casualties. Again, use your musketeers range to your benefit.
    -Against an enemy that is horse archer heavy, you will have to use lots of bowmen and light cavalry to counter them. Heavy ranged infantry armies, however, shouldn't be a problem, as you should use your units on the offensive (and musketeers do a great job at killing enemy ranged infantry anyways).
    -An enemy that is very heavy cavalry in numbers will present a problem if you pick the wrong terrain to fight on. If your cavalry guarding your flanks falls, they will be at your flanks and your pikemen will be toast. To counter this, either bring more heavy cavalry (and less sword & buckler), use gunners to aid the flanks, or once engaged, swing unengaged pikemen at the horses. They will make mincemeat of them.

    The battles results:
    https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...bacca/0005.jpg

    A lot of casualties, and my general died, but my formations stood their ground and didn't rout. Furthermore, this army was much cheaper to make than the French one, and surprisingly, one unit of pikemen inflicted the most casualties, at over 250 in this battle!

  6. #36

    Default Re: Spain

    Just a few short notes confirming what a lot have already said here:
    . taking all of the Iberian Peninsula and moving over to Marrakesh causes trade income to really jump. Up.
    . you can't trust the Portuguese (the in-game Portuguese, of course).
    . buffer states (donations of acquired real-estate to the Holy See) are most useful in shortening borders. I found that an alliance with the Pope and mutual rights-of-passage makes life easier.
    - Soulitaire

  7. #37

    Default Re: Spain

    Im-presionante!

    I can not help you with the battlegame cause I´m still managing the campaign and do not play tha battles , yet, but I´ve seen that some units are able to do an specific formation called schirron or something like that, that makes a circle with pikes outside. That´s what spanish tercios did in that era. But don´t know if it works in the game as it says.

    Anyway, your strategy is spectacular, historically and tactically perfect. Well done. Im impressed, and as I am spanish , glad to see the photos.
    Have you seen Alatriste film? They show tercios battling.

    Well done!

  8. #38
    Member Member Bongaroo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Spain

    I played a short campagin with the Spainish on VH/VH and found it very entertaining. Firstly I rushed to gobble up the rebel provinces while securing an alliance with the French. The alliance lasted right up to the end when I was close to victory and the AI decided it didn't want me to win.

    The Iberian penisula is a very strong position to defend with a bottleneck of 3 mountain passes to the northeast and a single approach from the south. After defeating the portugese and moors on the mainland I spent about 10 or 20 turns teching up and upgrading my front line armies. A crusade aimed at the moors pushed them over the edge and besides spending some time hunting down armies in the desert while moving east, mopping up was a cinch.

    At this point I was only a few provinces short for victory. The french backstabbing provided an easy choice for what to take for the win.

    Unit-wise, the Jinettes are a blast. Keep them out of combat until they've chucked all their harpoons. Those things pack a punch. They are quick and manueverable as well and if you use them right can easily start the enemies battle line routing.

  9. #39

    Default Re: Spain

    I'm using 6 Jinettes in my armies against the Moors. They're perfect for absolutely destroying the front lines of any infantry army they go up against, and also for threatening archer and crossbow heavy armies as well. Circle a few Jinettes behind, and often opposing armies will rout after a few seconds of melee with your own infantry line.

  10. #40

    Default Re: Spain

    In my game (turn 117 or so), so far I have taken over completely the Iberian Peninsula.

    At one time I had control of the North African City whose name escapes me (but it is the most westerly province in africa) and Bordouex. They have both, sadly, rebelled against my rule. I intend to take both of them back, but I will exterminate the population, not sack as usaul.

    Toledo is by far my best city, even though it is not my capital. It has never been anything but a green face, and right now it stands at my nationwide best 150% public order minimum. It is a citadel and is capable of producing Chivalrous Knights, Fudal Knights, Sword and Buckler men, Jinettes, bombards and then all the usual stuff like diplomats, priests etc. So far I love S&B men and dismounted Chivalrous Knights. I have a shortage of Infantry throughout my kingdom.

    Economically I am getting by, just about. I practically live off sacking though. I only get max 1000 florins a turn, and I'm lucky to get that if I do.

    I have several pressing questions:

    What are guilds? (ie Swordsmans Guild, Explorers guild) I keep establishing more and better ones without knowing what they do!

    I have gunpowder, and the Buildings which will allow me to create cannons are cheaper than the ones for catapults and trebuchets. Which should I go for?

    Are crusades worth it? I went on a crusade, sent my best young general and took the target city. At first, I was pleased with my achievement and glad to have made the investment of devoting my best troops to such a worthy cause. That was until about 5 absolutly bloody huge Mongol stacks each led by a general with at least 7 command stars came and killed my Alonso the Crusader who was promising to be a very good addition to my royal family (he was very young and very experienced too).

    From now on what I intend to do is to keep doing the crusades just for good measure, but upon taking and sacking the city, I will collect my rewards and then leave, abandon the place, drop it like a hot potatoe and hope that all the Mongol stacks leave me alone.
    I support Israel

  11. #41
    Member Member Kraggenmor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Spain

    Got the game for Christmas and have been playing almost non-stop since (generous company holiday time FTW!). I started my first campaign Vh/Vh as Spain and have had to re-start or go back to a save point more times than I can count.

    I'm astonished by everyone here who seems to have had the luxury of only dealing with the Moors and Portugal. Every time I've taken either Zaragosa or Valencia within a couple of turns I'm dealing with Sicilians (or Milanese) landing at the former rebel holding while Portugal launched an assault on either Leon or Toledo and whichever they don't attack the Moors do. While all that is going on, the French send armies to queue up behind the Sicilians while the Milanese (or Sicilians) wander over for no reason whatsoever and blockade any port or sink any boats I managed to build.

    Seriously I've counted myself fortunate any time I haven't had at least four enemies actively engaging me. I've just managed to take all of the Iberian plus Toulouse but, if I field any substantial force for expansion my income goes red in a big way. Now that the threat of Portugal is for all intents removed, suddenly England, Scotland, Sicily, Milan, France, the Moors, the ever present Rebels and God knows who else are now openly marching troops through my lands and navies across my seas with obvious intent to attack holdings in Spain.

    The game has been fun for the most part but I have to say the absolutely treacherous AI players really take a lot away from it. Alliances mean nothing and trade rights even less. What good are trade rights really when you can fully expect anyone you gave or got trade rights from will be attacking you within five turns. I am not exaggerating that either. I have yet to have trade rights last more the 5 - 6 turns before they're canceled for that faction attacking me.

    My experience has been that game is every bit coded to be the world against human player. How else do you explain factions who have a declared war marching massive armies alongside each other without attacking each other while moving to hit my (the player's) holdings? I find it terribly frustrating.

    Though I hold all of peninsular Iberia, I'm barely pulling in a couple of thousand florins/turn and if pull troops out of garrison in order to make support moves or to march on a new target my economy immediately plummets to the red. So my choices seem to be to sit tight and hope to weather siege after siege trying to build/retrain and save up for a long campaign while being nibbled to death by ducks OR field armies and try to expand as long as the funds from sacking towns sustain the drive meanwhile barely building at home and watching the armies I use to make that drive dwindle by attrition until the whole thing sputters out.

    Kind of frustrating to say the least.
    Last edited by Kraggenmor; 01-01-2007 at 07:03.


    "No swords for you wannabes! Get back to poking!"
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  12. #42
    Senior Member Senior Member katank's Avatar
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    Default Re: Spain

    VH campaign is a bit broken in that regard. You need to resort to constant bribing to make even far off factions sensible.

  13. #43
    Member Member Kraggenmor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Spain

    Quote Originally Posted by katank
    You need to resort to constant bribing to make even far off factions sensible.
    Aye. If I could afford it.

    I did get my economic issues sorted out - at least a little bit. In my gains making I had not converted any settlements from what they were when I took them. So I had four cities and five castles. I have converted Valencia and Pamplona which leaves me with Toulouse, Toledo and Granada.

    I know diminishing my garrison forces will alleviate the problem to a great extent but, I also know that as soon as I do that massive AI armies will show up and I'll lose those locations.

    I've recently added Marseilles as a holding and the black death has just (hopefully) finished ravaging through Iberia so, maybe this would be a good time for troop consolidation and see what happens.


    "No swords for you wannabes! Get back to poking!"
    - Dopp -

  14. #44
    Deadhead Member Owen Glyndwr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Spain

    In my Spanish Campaign, the Pope called a crusade on Rome (The Sicilians took it, making it very hard for me to butter up the pope, because i can't find him), and it was pretty much a joke from the getgo. I only joined it because my standing with the pope was suffering, and I was planning an invasion of Briton. I was getting desertion after desertion because I was having a hard time simply getting off the Iberian peninsula lol. But now that I'm going, I'm well on my way to rome!
    "You must know, then, that there are two methods of fight, the one by law, the other by force: the first method is that of men, the second of beasts; but as the first method is often insufficient, one must have recourse to the second. It is therefore necessary for a prince to know well how to use both the beast and the man.
    -Niccolo Machiavelli


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  15. #45

    Default Re: Spain

    Started what looks to be the first non-English campagin I'm going to stick with today.

    I was going to assault the rebel towns first, but a quick check by my first spy showed that Cordoba was defended only by the Moorish faction leader, one of his sons, and a single militia unit. From the first turn, I gathered all my forces, adding a few Jinettes and Javelinmen, and made a quick, surgical strike against him. Even though doing all this at a rush nearly bankrupted me, the sacking made it profitable enough for me to raise an army to take Zaragosa after the Portugese failed to do so.

    The Moors responded with a large stack lead by another general. I fought them in the hills around Cordoba. From my superior position on top of a very large hill, I rained fire arrows and javelins down on them, flanked them with my Jinettes, and charged them with my general, all in very quick order.

    Total chaos. Most of their line broke coming up the hill. Only one group of spearmen met my front line, and they were overwhelmed. Their general was captured by mine. The last group tried to make a final stand on a hilltop nearby. My Jinettes engaged in a deadly duel with their desert archers, during which their mobility and power proved superior. The remaining forces were charged down and captured as they ran by the Jinettes. Moorish power in Europe was broken in that one heroic victory.

    By turn ten, I expect to have fully driven the Moors out of my country. Then, I need to concentrate on my economic status, and prepare for Portugal’s inevitable betrayal, assuming it doesn’t come in the next two turns.

  16. #46

    Default Re: Spain

    Bribing to keep alliances doesn't have to be that expensive.

    200fl/10turns keeps the happiness up and is affordable. In teh long run far better than a straight gift of 2000.

    I'm Scotland and paying the pope and the french. my pope-o=meter is perfect and the French haven't betrayed me...yet. (Turn 30ish)

  17. #47

    Default Re: Spain

    A lesson from my game: if you're going to backstab Portugal, do it quickly and cleanly. If you wait too long, they'll expand somewhere where you can't reach them, like Britain.

    I still suggest sacking Cordoba very early. It's larger and better developed than your other cities. Once you take that city and smash their main force, the Moors will sue for peace at every opportunity. They know you can block the land bridge and crush them piece by little piece.

    It might be best not to betray them, once you have peace. Everyone allies with the Moors early on. I led a crusade on Marrakesh for some quick rewards, and that made the French and Portugese very mad, even though they were brother Catholics.

    It’s a long, long way to Timbuktu, but it might be worth the trip. Ever wanted to trade in African slaves and ivory? No? Well, me neither. Still, I can’t deny that it’s extremely profitable. Besides, is it really worse than warmongering and assassination? Be sure to bring priests, because there isn't a single Catholic in miles.

  18. #48

    Default Re: Spain

    Quote Originally Posted by Moah
    Bribing to keep alliances doesn't have to be that expensive.

    200fl/10turns keeps the happiness up and is affordable. In teh long run far better than a straight gift of 2000.

    I'm Scotland and paying the pope and the french. my pope-o=meter is perfect and the French haven't betrayed me...yet. (Turn 30ish)
    Ah well it was good while it lasted. French betrayed me on turn 50ish. Seems like the Pope is the only man you can trust to stay bribed...

  19. #49

    Default Re: Spain

    On my Spanish Campaign, I am pushing through what the English conquered of France.

    I sent my main force to attack Caen, which is a Citadel, but the turn before I could assault it with my 4 culverins they sent an army of c950 men to retaliate against my force of c550 men. They also had reinforcments from the town which amounted to c105 men. So essentially I am fighting the English in a Battle outnumbered doubly.
    It was probably my most fluky victory. The 4 culverins were only able to fire 3 shots each (all of which missed) and then the enemy closed in. To make a long story short I won the Battle, after killing 3 enemy generals, with less than 10 men left! (this is unit scale normal).

    I took Caen and now I plan on taking the rest of the English cities in France.

    I am also setting out on an expedition to the new world. I wonder what type of units I should take...
    I support Israel

  20. #50
    Member Member Kraggenmor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Spain

    Quote Originally Posted by diablodelmar

    I am also setting out on an expedition to the new world. I wonder what type of units I should take...

    Not to belabour the obvious but, since you asked:

    A.) At least one extremely loyal family member general. Distance from capital is a major issue and so, troops rebelling is too.

    B.) Jinettes, goes without saying. I did well with an inital army that was almost exclusively pikes with a few Jinis and a general. If you can spare gunpowder infantry, that would be great too.

    c.) Agents, agents AGENTS! Priests, spies, assassins, merchants maybe even a diplomat or two.

    Like mentioned about Timbuktu, there's not a shred of Catholicism about, so Priests are a requirement not an accessory. Cardinals would be even better - again - if you can spare them. They'll be spending a long time floating over there so, account for that in the 'can I spare them?' decision. It's a long time they'll be doing nothing but, once they land they'll be busy, busy boys.

    Merchants to drop on valuable resources and start the expedition paying off ASAP.

    Spies for the obvious. Extend your line of sight, gather intel and open gates. An open gate really extends the functional life of an army.

    EDIT: Consider also creating a fresh batch of agents to be put immediately on the boats. As mentioned, it's a long float over and you can expect a long lead time to being able to build back up to the point generating quality agents once you're there. You don't want to send a 50 year old agent over there and get only a turn or two out of them before age catches up.

    Your expedition fleet should also be several ships Carracks in size at least and should be renamed Nina, Pinta and Santa Maria ;). Its good to have extras in case of storms, pirates, etc.
    Last edited by Kraggenmor; 01-24-2007 at 14:54.


    "No swords for you wannabes! Get back to poking!"
    - Dopp -

  21. #51

    Default Re: Spain

    Hmmmm...

    I have right now is one Merchant, one Priest, about 7 Sword and Buckler Men, 3 mounted chivalrous knights, a few Tercio Pikemen and then a culverin. Right now I don't have access to any (worthwhile) gunpowder units aside from cannons. I also, wondered whether the Pikemen are worth bringing. I read they were oddly effective against the Aztecs - but since there is not much Cavalry over there I don't know... As for Jinettes, well I didn't think of bringing any of them because they seemed to me like they might be getting obsolete now and I haven't built any for a while but since you mention it I will be sure to bring some.

    Should I:
    Wait for more gunpowder units?
    Build more cannons?
    Build more cavalry?
    More agents?
    I suppose I should bring along a few more priests and Merchants and then some spies.
    I support Israel

  22. #52
    Member Member Kraggenmor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Spain

    You can always make a new batch of agents and send them along following the initial force.

    I wouldn't wait for gunpowder infantry, I was just saying that if you have them and can spare them, it's a good call.

    I like Jinettes because...well the obvious, they frigging rock during every age and, because of their speed and flexiblity. Aztecs are fast, jinis are too and good for disrupting them, like they are good for disrupting everyone.

    Remember too - the Aztrecs are 'kind of' outdated by nature. So your 'outdated' units are good over there.

    Either way, if you feel like you're ready to roll on the new world, rock on.


    "No swords for you wannabes! Get back to poking!"
    - Dopp -

  23. #53

    Default Re: Spain

    Well at this stage I have sent my fleet packed with all the aforementioned goodies and units and its currently sailing towards the New World. I almost forgot to add a loyal general! This is mainly because I am sadly low on generals at the moment therefore I had to take the Governer of my only decent Huge City (Cordoba). You see, I only realised halfway through the game that to upgrade Cities you needed to build better walls, so my Cities are all behind the times apart from Cordoba and Toledo.

    Anyways, with the conquering army sent to the New World I now have several more objectives:

    1. To beat the crap out of the English which is proving quite challenging (they seem to be better than the Moors) and now they have allied with the Mongols who already hate me.
    2. To join the crusade and go take Jerusalem which is a City in the middle of the Mongol territory who have a bigger military than the rest of the world's armies put together!
    3. To make Valencia, Pamplona, Zaragosa and Leon into productive Huge Cities.
    4. To make a bigger army, and take the 45 territories required to win (right now I have 15 or so, and its turn 175, so some urgency here).
    I support Israel

  24. #54
    Sardonic Antipodean Member Trithemius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Spain

    Quote Originally Posted by diablodelmar
    I have gunpowder, and the Buildings which will allow me to create cannons are cheaper than the ones for catapults and trebuchets. Which should I go for?
    I like cannons myself.

    From now on what I intend to do is to keep doing the crusades just for good measure, but upon taking and sacking the city, I will collect my rewards and then leave, abandon the place, drop it like a hot potatoe and hope that all the Mongol stacks leave me alone.
    Probably a good idea. This kind of "recycling" also means that you can do the Crusade again, later... ;)
    Trithemius
    "Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius

  25. #55
    Maximizer of Marginal Utility Member Snoil The Mighty's Avatar
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    Default Re: Spain

    Quote Originally Posted by Trithemius
    I like cannons myself.



    Probably a good idea. This kind of "recycling" also means that you can do the Crusade again, later... ;)

    Doing it this particular way instead of giving it to the pope or selling it to another faction does insure that you can pillage and plunder under divine sanction again and again. I'd like to have a standard along the lines of a Great Cross or Carrochio Standard that said - "Crusade Over-Free Beer for Mongol or Timurid Army who attacks first" that I could park outside the city as I left.

  26. #56

    Default Re: Spain

    Ok, right now there is about 17 turns left in the game, and I have to capture about that many provinces in order to win.

    I will post a screenshot or two (could someone PM me about how to do this because I never seem to be able to do it).

    Anyway, I have captured most of North Africa (but can't find the two cities belonging to the two provinces that are most west and south on the entire Map - Help?), All of France, Sicily, Milan, of course the entire Iberian Peninsula, Jerusalem, Tlaxca, Caribbean, London, North America. I have sent a ship to capture Brazil, and one to reinforce Tlaxca because three Aztec stacks have just attacked it.

    I am going to have to resort to attacking the Papal States, who have grown very powerful indeed. Aside from owning all of Italy apart from Milan (Spain) and Venice (Holy Roman Empire) I also noticed that their Mediteranean holdingd are quite substantial. I am going to launch a nasty Surprise attack on them. My invasion of England is going quite well, having destroyed the only English Army in Britain the whole Island is at my mercy which will not be spared. Tip: Jinetes; you know they are good, but I recently found out that they work wonders against the English especially.
    I support Israel

  27. #57
    Deadhead Member Owen Glyndwr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Spain

    A lesson from my game: if you're going to backstab Portugal, do it quickly and cleanly.
    I agree with you completely. From my experiences, not just in M2, but in R also, wars need to be dealt with efficiently. Especially in the early game where money and troops are light. On my campaign, I got whatever troops i could spare and moved right over to Zaragosa 1st and 2nd turn. the Portuguese beat me to it so I sat around and waited. they lost, so I took Zaragosa and make a temporary alliance with Portugal. The trade will give you an extra kick to make the armies needed. I prepared armies because I knew either Portugal was going to betray me, or I them. I had about 20k florins, so I made two armies. I learned that in these games, good logistics are key. Not only to avoid the Pope, but money constraints make it so that you can't afford to have these wars drag out. I finished off Portugal in two turns, and then quickly kicked the Moors out of the iberian Peninsula. These took me about 15-20 turns, and it gave me just the start I needed to get a good foothold in the campaign (helped prevent the multi-frontal wars that I experienced as the English)
    "You must know, then, that there are two methods of fight, the one by law, the other by force: the first method is that of men, the second of beasts; but as the first method is often insufficient, one must have recourse to the second. It is therefore necessary for a prince to know well how to use both the beast and the man.
    -Niccolo Machiavelli


    AARs:
    The Aeduic War: A Casse Mini AAR
    The Kings of Land's End: A Lusitani AAR

  28. #58

    Default Re: Spain

    I actually managed to destroy Portugal with a much smaller overall military than them. Since they only had two cities I attacked Pamplona first, and while the Portuguese Army was circling around south of Lisbon to presumably attack my Cordoba or Toledo I had a small army take Lison. The huge Army turned to Rebels and is still there now - I havn't bothered to destroy it. Is this causing devastation or something like in RTW?
    I support Israel

  29. #59
    Member Member Kraggenmor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Spain

    Quote Originally Posted by diablodelmar
    The huge Army turned to Rebels and is still there now - I havn't bothered to destroy it. Is this causing devastation or something like in RTW?
    Probably. I've certainly had that happen in my own campaigns under similar circumstances. If that rebel army is parked on a road they are almost certainly hosing up trade along that route as well. Doubly bad if its a road to & from a port. If its just out in the wilderness then, its probably "just" causing devastation - you can tell by the ground around the army turning gray and looking charred.

    Either way, you want to deal with that army in some fashion. Either destroy it or bribe them. How urgently that needs to be done depends on just what its doing to you.


    "No swords for you wannabes! Get back to poking!"
    - Dopp -

  30. #60

    Default Re: Spain

    Vicarious' post was funny; I didn't realize that 'MY LITTLE PONY' was a sanitized substitute for a curse word until I read the later posts by the moderator and such. This newb thought that he was saying that a cavalry heavy, computer-controlled enemy was marching on one of his cities:) I want to commend him for his exceelent command of the English language; I was very surprised to find out that he is a native Nrowegian and not an ex-pat Yankee living in Oslo. To business, though...

    I'm playing my first campaign as Spain on VH/H (am I correct in discerning that the protocol is to list the difficulty of the game setting as a whole (strategy) first and then battle difficulty?). Although I've been a big fan of the TW series having played each of its main variants (Shogun, MTW, Rome), I've experienced much more success (and far sooner at this point of playing in comparison) with MTW2 than with any of its predeceessors. I won the long campaign playing HRE on M/M after only restarting once. And recently, I won playing France on H/H on my first try. Maybe this was luck and/or these are easy factions. At any rate, my first campaign with Spain has been far more difficuly (and my position is probably doomed at this point).

    I only control four cities after about turn thirty-five (Valenica and Lisbon eventually fell). I think my main mistake was squandering so much time trying to take Valencia. I did the spy infilitrate tactic and it worked at opening the gates. And I thought my assault force was big enough. Unfortuantely, my army got routed on three successive tries (save restart used). Ont he first, I made the mistake of charging through with all of my units and (as other posters have pointed out in many threads here) that is a recipe for defeat as the attacker. next two times, I split my forces in two and attacked through two different gates and did a good job of timing my split forces to engage the enemy's (similarly dvided forces) simultaenously. Alas, the result was still the same. My forces ultimetly were routed. I had to go to plan B and seige them until they came out at me (and I easily beat them). But this fatal waste of several turns set me back at a critical time. Mr. Moor was on themrach in the meantime (I had to fight off a couple of sieges by him) and diverting resources to Valencia gave him the time he needed to entrench in Zaraoga (huge army threre) and from reading the posts from more experienced players, I know understand that taking this city early is critical:(

    As opposed to with other factions I've played where it is fairly obvious to me where I need to spend haeavily in the eraly going,with Spain, I'm not really clear on whether I should focus on investing in military development, economic development or what in the infancy of my campaign (first thrity turns or so). I suspect that my strategy of taking a middle ground is probably a loser. It doesn't help that Mr. Moor is particuarly aggressive with his prosleytation of my lands early on. I should probably have put fighting this threat to the backburner though (and not spent money on churches and priests, and delaying my delveopment/force building) since it likely only takes a toll in the long run, like a slowly-spreading cancer.ANyway, these are just my newb observations. Any other rookies experiencing thse kind of growing pains? Thanks for your time!

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