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Thread: Venice

  1. #91
    Member Member angie1313's Avatar
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    Default Re: Venice

    Quote Originally Posted by CrusadeAgainstYourEnemies View Post
    I started out very peacefully with Venice on VH/VH.

    Traded Iraklion, Map Info and an Alliance to the Holy Roman Empire for Bologna.

    Secured an Alliance with the Pope.

    Did not move on Zagreb or Durazzo.

    My only military move in the first 25 or so turns was to take Florence.

    In the mean time I spent my time by teching up the economies of Florence, Bologna and Venice through farms/roads/markets/ports while supplying each with the means to defend itself through militia spears and crossbows.

    I built cavalry in Ragusa. Brought the administrator to Venice and the Iraklion family member to Ragusa.

    I allied with the French knowing full well I would eventually square off with the Milanese.

    But the first act of war was the Sicilians. They were eliminated with relative ease as they were excommunicated and destroyed without a Crusade but with no Papal intervention either.

    Next the Milanese decided to strike. I crusaded against Milan and quickly relieved the people of that nation of their two Italian cities. Now Venice resides over all of Italy, minus Rome, and Ragusa on the Greek coast.

    My next move, where I'm in the middle of now, was an invasion of Greece. The goal for my initial half of the strategy is to secure Constantinople to Genoa whilst avoiding war in the West, setting up my economy and maintaining Papal favor.

    The way I approach this game, as a Catholic faction on VH/VH, is always to appease then manipulate the Papacy.

    I just took Thessalonica and Corinth, the next stop is Constantinople to control the trade of the entire map.

    Once that is achieved, I will likely look to Hungary/Poland/Germany to further expand.

    Don't get trapped into the idea that Venice needs to be played with the same ruthlessness and aggressiveness as the AI. It is possible and very effective to use your early military strength to stay at peace and develop a core of Venice, Bologna and Florence as the heart of your future Imperial economic structure.

    Thats great advice to anyone who is listening. I made a few of those mistakes a number of times before I realized what I was doing wrong. Your thoughts on not being too aggressive is spot on.
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  2. #92

    Default Re: Venice

    Another thing:

    The Byzantines were very strong in my game. Their generals are all 4+ Command Stars, with their family members usually around 6+ Command stars. They rolled with large, archer/heavy cavalry type armies.

    I teched to Venetian archers too late as I was hell bent on getting a barracks in Ragusa/Palermo/Corinth for Venetian Heavy Infantry. If I could go back I would've mixed in the archery ranges as well to get the Venetian Archers, great units.

    Bring lots of Priests to Byzantium. I got many Cardinals from spreading the faith not to mention only one family member ended up with a Pagan Magician in his entourage. Furthermore, Priests help with assimilation of conquered cities with different religions as most of you already know.

    One question for any of you Venetian Veterans: Why is the blood-line of Venice so screwed up? I keep getting horrible traits for my coming of age Generals. I've killed off at least 5 neophyte Generals because their traits were horrible.

  3. #93
    Senior Member Senior Member Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Venice

    I have a different approach to playing Venice.

    It has arguably the best balance of units in the game.

    Her best archers are good as infantry so turn off the skirmish mode in most battles and stand fast. Back them with a few spears to rout cavalry and us Venicetion infantry for their infantry. You can make lancers in cities and they are good enough.

    As to enemies, you don’t need to worry about too many of them. Buy Bologna from the Germans and pounce on Florence in the first turn. Buy cities from any faction that has more than three provinces in your early expansion. Tech up your castles for archers and infantry. Use diplomacy to buy provinces and do offer military access both ways to your allies. They attack less frequently when you have it. When you attack any city don’t sack if you can help it. Work toward that Immaculate reputation. Going to war is something to avoid. It will happen but don’t do it your self.

    Use spies, assassins and priests to make Constantinople rebel and take it.

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  4. #94
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Venice

    Interesting, Fisher'.

    Quite similar to how I play Venice, though I sack more (virtually never exterminate).

    As you rightly note, your city unit mix is nearly as good as Milan's, so I take your approach (I do tend to use foot knights until I can get VHI production lines up and running and I prefer Knights to Lancers -- though only by a bit). Castle troops are a nice supplement, but not a requirement at all. A quick grab of Bologna and Florence really does give you a lot to work with. Once Milan attacks and you can take the other two members of the Quintet, you really have a great base.

    I actually convert quite a few conquered castles to cities with Venice or Milan. I find one Castle in a large region (Italia, Gallia, Iberia, Dalmatia, Asia...) to be more than sufficient with those city troops. And yes, I generally leave as a castle that property which I know will be the enemies "focus" so that I can use it as a bleed-em-white spot.
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  5. #95

    Default Re: Venice

    I probly plat as the British empire

  6. #96

    Default Re: Venice

    Playing M/M 1.0 Long Campaign

    Venice is one of my favorite factions to play (after Sicily, Denmark, Portugal, and England). I love the Italian militia units, I love the super cash cow in the Italian north, I just love the Italians in general, but Venice is definitely my second favorite of all of them. Milan is pretty fun to play too, but its complete independence from castle units (you can even train your heavy cavalry from cities...seriously, something's a bit off here.) can make gameplay a little redundant. Venice is also probably the most challenging Italian faction to play. While Sicily does have an economic disadvantage early on, it can overcome that easily and in the meantime doesn't have five factions or so to fight at once. Sicily can pretty much ignore European politics outside of Italy - Venice can't. Its starting position gives it incredible opportunities - control the Italian trade monster, attack the heathen Byzantines, use Iraklion to generate a huge and unstoppable navy - but it also means the wrong first moves will get you into deep trouble with too many factions to contend with, two of them (the HRE and the Byzantines) being the most militarily powerful and advanced in the world and Milan having the scariest militia army ever created, bar maybe the Moors with their urban militia (and even they don't get the pavise crossbows).

    Key settlements are Bologna, Florence, Milan, Genoa, Durazzo, and Corinth.

    Build a city barracks in Venice, you're going to want the Pavise Crossbow Militia.

    The HRE must have something against keeping Bologna. Buy it for about 6000 florins total. Your diplomat begins with two pillars, you may want to bring it up by negotiating for a turn before going for the sale. You will receive a large number of mercenaries (most of the time it is crossbows, but once as Sicily later in the early game I got Frankish Knights instead). These crossbows are essential to your conquest, and you essentially just bought them for maybe 150-200 more than their normal cost. I believe there are 6 when you buy Bologna, so you can think of it as buying a city for 1200 florins.

    Quickly take Florence. Use those crossbows, and use them well. They'll be part of your army for a long time from now.

    My next target was Milan. Don't ever waste a single turn maintaining a siege against them. Instead, build spies by the dozen and send them into both of their cities. You may have trouble keeping your money up for the moment, as you're still paying tribute for Bologna. But both cities for some reason tend to be lightly defended. Keep two armies within walking distance of both cities, and attack when you have enough spies, taking both cities in one fell swoop. Preferably this would eliminate Milan from the game; if not, there is no real problem, as while they will be sending full stacks to take Milan back, Milan is an excellently developed city that will quickly develop advanced militia units and maybe a ballista tower. You can watch as they dash themselves to no effect against your towering walls.

    Meanwhile, toward the east, you have Ragusa and Iraklion. For the moment it's hard to spare money for troops in this region. Take Durazzo for the council reward, it's important for your early game. Take Corinth, preferably after it reaches Fortress, with troops from Iraklion (you don't want to waste 4800 upgrading it yourself). Corinth will be the base of operations in your Byzantine war. Once things settle down in Italy, begin pumping troops from Ragusa (which you should upgrade to produce armored sergeants), Durazzo (get those Italian spear militias, or better yet, get ballistae to make sieges easier), and Corinth (Feudal Knights might be a good Idea). Using the troops you have already in Greece (probably a few mailed knights, mounted sergeants, and spear militia) as one stack and the new troops as a second, you can take Thessalonica and Sofia (Sofia is another excellent Fortress to pump knights from).

    In Italy, the Sicilians will begin acting up. They have the usual militia plus dismounted Norman Knights. A head-on confrontation may be costly, though they have few to no crossbows usually. You can either defeat their invasion head on with a good stack of mercenaries (use all of those mercenary x-bows from Bologna) and spear militia, or you can hold them off with a stack and use spies and boats to take Naples and Palermo at once. Or just take Naples - the Pope will likely excommunicate Sicily a turn or so later, and then you can go for Palermo. Palermo is an excellent fortress that can probably upgrade to Citadel if it hasn't already, and I got a swordsmith's guild the turn I repaired the walls. So now I can have nearly invincible dismounted feudals and men at arms, plus I get a bonus to heavy cavalry at higher levels.

    Take the island settlements now if you haven't already. As cities they are major trade centers and boost all of your Italian trade.

    This is the point I am at now. Gregory died a few turns ago, and I had 3 cardinals and used allliances to vote me in as Pope. Always be wary of Papal standing - keep it at good or higher. I have 2 cardinals so far and am sending priests from Milan to make more; as always in my games, Milan is my theologian's guild city. With the capture of Thessalonica and Sofia, Durazzo is safe. The HRE took Bern and Zagreb before I could unfortunately. Bern is an underupgraded Castle anyway - if the HRE ever goes to war with me, I'll use Ragusa (its only real purpose in the game after the initial game) to take the mines of Zagreb and Vienna, and my superior militia to take Bern and Innsbruck, which will have upgraded far better now. Without these castles, the HRE's only resort will be Staufen, which quite frankly is a terrible castle compared to Innsbruck or Hamburg. I could probably convert Innsbruck to a city and keep Bern as my defense against Milan and the HRE.

    France seems a bit hostile with me - I didn't ally with them when I could, and now I can't ally with them at all. They've been threatening to attack when I try to talk with them. Undoubtedly they will have Toulouse as the Spanish and the Portuguese don't seem to be doing so good yet, so my targets if I ever war against France will be Toulouse and Marseille for the Knights and the trade boost. After those two, France is likely crippled in the south and will be too busy fighting the surrounding factions.

    Hungary, I hear, will attack eventually. I'll take Constantinople, use my navy to block the land bridges, and consolidate my power in Greece. If they ever attack, their first castle and city will be my targets. Without them the Magyars are toast.

    I rarely expand further north in Italian games than Vienna, so in the South I have the Moors. For me the Moors are just a relaxation game more than anything else. Tunis and Algiers will likely be enough to contain them, but of course I could just oust the Moors from Africa and establish merchants in Timbuktu and Arquin (finding Arquin especially is entertaining).

    A final few tips:
    You have the best possible location to secure the Papacy. Send priests initially into the Byzantines. Eventually, once opportunities run out there, send them to Africa. As my Sicilian game proves, Africa is essential to the Papacy - I had 10 or 11 Cardinals once because of it. Use Milan to train better priests - get a theologian's guild, build a cathedral (don't build a huge one, it disables bishops). With a cathedral and a guild HQ, Milan can generate bishops (+1) with orthodox instruction (+1) and guild journeyman (+2), (+1) for blessed. That's a 5 cross bishop right there, more than enough to gain a Cardinal, not counting higher bonuses (Divine Connection +2, Chosen One +3), ancillaries, and missionary training.
    Use your navy! Venice begins with the strongest navy in the world, 4 experienced galleys near Iraklion and 4 more near Venice. Use pirates to gain command stars. Often missions that give you best unit rewards will give you war galleys in the beginning, so don't worry about losing them (but do retrain). One thing I might try against the Mongols is use the navy to block the land bridge to Constantinople. It will protect against jihads and Byzantine/Turkish war as well. Venice will end up with one of the strongest navies in the late game (Portugal and Spain get the best ships but are unlikely to be able to finance them).

    Spies, spies, spies. Make 6 or 7 early on, make more to root out enemy spies and reduce unrest. A thieve's guild is unlikely to be necessary, however.

    And finally, upgrade city barracks regularly. You get excellent troops and excellent defense as well as happiness.

  7. #97

    Default Re: Venice

    I play Venice a little weird, in that I almost always convert Milan into a castle. I find that Milan's my least profitable province (probably has something to do with the lack of ports), and I usually capture Milan at a point where its population allows a relatively painless conversion to a Citadel. Genoa, Venice, Florence and Bologna are subsequently left cities, and they produce my extravagant income.

    (Exception: One time with Venice, Sicily declared war on me early, so I converted Bologna into a castle and just kept it a castle after taking Milan and Genoa. Bologna's usually not quite as profitable as Venice, Florence or Genoa, either. Don't know why. It could just be how I develop the respective towns.)

    While I respect the argument that every one of the five "Northern Italian bloc" cities should stay cities, I find that it's just so much easier to reinforce against HRE / French incursion when one of the five is a castle, as units from that castle are easily able to be sent to any of the cities in jeopardy. Also: as great as the militia units are, I have a soft spot for Feudal Knights and Venice Archers, with their superior range and defense, make better garrison units.

    I usually find an early alliance offer and some degree of tribute to the Pope are sufficient to allow me to declare war on Milan without substantial consequences. I also benefit tremendously from the ol' "mass-recruit priests, send them on missionary work, build up their piety" strategy, which usually enables me to dominate with Cardinals. Often I'll play Venice by allying with everyone near me but Milan, bribing HRE for Bologna and grabbing Florence early, then going after Corsica and Sardinia, and then just staying put, until the current Pope dies and one of my priests inevitably replaces him. Sometimes I'll actually try to declare on Milan just before the Pope dies, as if my Cardinal is in great shape to be elected, he'll have a lower-then-average opinion of Milan going into the Papacy role.

    Oh! I'll also give the Pope Irkalion. That's a pretty valuable part of my strategy. The island is very useless to me, so I've alternated in past games between giving Irkalion to the HRE (for Bologna, instead of a traditional florins bribe) or to the Pope (more useful if I've just suffered a slight blow to my status with the Papacy due to a war declaration on Milan.) I'll send my Irkalion units to Durazzo to win the prize, then leave the city torn apart for the Byzantines; then they'll march through to nothern Italy and end up assisting with Milan.

    I like to take out Milan relatively early. Usually, if Milan's conquered Dijon, I feel I've given them too much time. I like to take Milan and Genoa out fast, and then rebuild my rep with the Pope after the damage has been done with Irkalion, bribes, and eventually cathedrals. (Venice is in great position to build one before other factions do.)

    Once I've consolidated the five powerhouses of northern Italy, Corsica, and possibly Sardinia (Sicily occasionally beats me to the latter), I build up Milan (or Bologna) into a Citadel, the others into Huge Cities, and basically turtle for a while. If possible, I try to hit up north Africa (Moors territory) with crusades. It helps to have north African territory prior to declaring war on Sicily -- sometimes I even purposefully leave a northern African crusade target empty after conquering in a blatant attempt to convince Sicily to march from Tunisia and declare war so I don't suffer the bad karma.

    Then it's Naples, Sicily and (if necessary) Sardinia, and now I have all of Italy outside of Rome under my control. I find it's really easy to subsequently keep the Pope on my good side -- he's almost always a Venesian pope, which helps, but I guess the fear of being surrounded by Venice keeps the Papal States in a subservient mindset.
    I usually go for Iberia next and not Byzantium, but that's largely because the Mongols / Turks / Byzantines out there all frighten me, and expansion into Greece usually leads to Hungary and the Byzantines declaring war on me, and then I'll finally take Constantinople only to learn it's a favorite jihad target a turn or two later. (And even the Mongols join jihads! Never a good thing.)

    Iberia is comparably safe. From a pure geographical standpoint it makes sense to move my capital to Sardinia, so I often do so. Start with the Moor territories -- Cordoba and Granada are usually still Moor-occupied at this time and the Papal States will be happy to see them eradicated. Crusades into these territories help immensely in terms of keeping troop levels high for low upkeep.

    Usually in the early game I ally with one Iberian power and simply acquire trade rights with the other. Most recently, I allied with Portugal, then manipulated navy positioning so that Portugal would be forced into a war against Spain (with me.) Then I just take all the Spanish provinces, but I don't usually have to worry about Portugal double-crossing me. (Portugal has this irritating strategy in my Venice games of always taking Ireland, which makes eliminating the faction next to impossible. Spain is easier to eradicate outright.) Leaving a recent Spanish acquisition defenseless leads Portugal to declare war, they take the Pope popularity hit, and I consolidate Iberia, signing peace only after they've been restricted to Irish territory.

    Next up has differed on my game: once I was hurting with Papal favor and the Polish took the Papacy, and despite being allies with Poland the Polish Pope didn't like me much. So I went across Africa on "crusades against the Holy Land" that never actually reached the Holy Land (or simply abandoned the holy cities after conquering them.) My real goal was Egypt proper, taken along the way. I find the Mongols usually don't mess with Alexandria, and I usually keep Gaza as a border. Eventually I end up dealing with Timurids, but never Mongols, from that position.

    As a sidenote, I somehow convinced HRE to give me Bern for Antioch and tons of florins that game, but the poor HRE lost Antioch about a dozen turns later.

    Another game, however, my relationship with the Papacy was better, and France made the mistake of blockading a port of mine, so I was able to go against France without risking excommunication. Started with Marsielles (from Genoa) and Toulouse (from Spain.)

    After either Egypt or France, I always try for the New World when it opens up (really doesn't even matter which faction I'm playing!), but my final push is almost always for Byzantium -- in fact, I often prefer to leave Constantinople for my final conquer needed to win the game. Leaving Byzantine for post-gunpowder makes sense because you go from a huge tactical disadvantage to a huge tactical advantage against them (if they're even still around: one of the two times I played as Venice the Turks controlled Constantinople by the time I got there and Byzantium had been relegated to Rhodes.) I'll take all of Greece and even declare war on Hungary if necessary to acquire the settlements needed, though by that time, I'm such a clear powerhouse that half the world has declared war on me out of sheer desperation anyway. =)

    To summarize: With Venice, turtling a while in North Italy during the "early-mid game" really helps: you'll build an immense amount of money and likely deal with few attackers. (I've never had HRE come down on me 'til much later in the game, assuming you've gotten the HRE to give up Bologna.) Like the Sicilians and Milan, Venice can go a little out of their way with sails to take on non-Catholic targets, namely the Moors, which helps tremendously with preventing any alienation from the Pope. Bologna, Venice, Florence, Milan and Genoa can all reinforce each other in a single turn with paved roads, so if any one of those is a castle, you can basically mass any unit you need to wherever you need it. Finally, it's all about taking Milan out early -- any way you can -- and you'll need an excuse to take Sicily out soon thereafter. If you succeed in consolidating Italy (minus Rome) as any one of the three Italian factions, and if you've done so without risking excommunication, you've basically won the game.

  8. #98

    Default Re: Venice

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiron Drayga View Post
    Finally, it's all about taking Milan out early -- any way you can -- and you'll need an excuse to take Sicily out soon thereafter. If you succeed in consolidating Italy (minus Rome) as any one of the three Italian factions, and if you've done so without risking excommunication, you've basically won the game.
    You said a mouthful there, pardner.

    To comment on what I have read on this thread:

    I'm suprised that some people pay so much for Bolonga. I never pay more than 4000 florin (Alliance + Trade Rights + Map Info + 1000/turn X 4 turns). I occasionally get them to take the same deal as above but with 3600 (1200 X 3 turn)! It's insult to injury, though...the HRE will sell the same deal to Milan for 2800 cash! It's discrimination, I tell you...anyway, this price is usually good all the way to turn four, so I often wait while I take Zagreb and return the army to Italy.

    In agreement with your quoted statement above, and to quell my natural aggressive instinct, I insist on taking out both Zagreb and Bologna without loses. It's fairly easy to siege those cities (as both have fairly minimal seige supplies) with sufficient force to make the populace surrender without sallying forth. No casualties taken, the Venice-Bologna-Florence triad in place with Zagreb starting to show as a true earner by turn 6 to 8. I find that having an intact and supplemented order of battle can really make the difference when push comes to shove, which happens right about...turn 7 or 8!

    Iraklion is a royal pain. I have actually had good luck ceding it to the Pope and either taking Rhodes and Smyrna with the garrison or sending them home to help assure a timely annexation of the Nothern Italian Quintet. I have watched in horror as wave after wave of Sicilians and Byzentines wore the Garrison down and finally took it (I autoresolve all battles, no heroic gate defenses). It's positionally very attractive, but one CAN make do without it.

    The funnest thing about Venice is that it's one of the few factions that can actually TAKE all the way to the advent of gunpowder and beyond to win. I can't think I ever made it past the bombard stage with Milan, even on VH.


  9. #99

    Default Re: Venice

    About the islands, I've found it best to leave them alone as in the past when I've taken them,Spain,Portugual,Sicily,France and england also decided that they wanted them and well,fighting what feels like,non-stop battles for them gets boring very quickly after a bit or that could be just me.

  10. #100
    Future USMC Cobra Pilot Member Prussian to the Iron's Avatar
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    Default Re: Venice

    venice was actually my first faction playing m2 the first time around, and i continued on it until my comp. crashed and had to start over. i loved venice, mostly the balance of units, with the venetian heavy infnatry, the venetian archers, the cavalry, the exotic units, as well as the generic west european units(i use retrofit mod 1.0 with the grand unit addon mod on it now) i think venice is a very stable country to start with, being wealthy, in a good starting position, and with strong units all together.

    with the islands, i usually turn them into huge cities with a small garrison of militia units, and secure trade rights with just about everyone around, making them trade centers in the eastern mediterranean. same with italian islands
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  11. #101
    Member Member Polemists's Avatar
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    Default Re: Venice

    I think i'm going to have get fraps again once etw comes out, I forgot how fun it is to video tape your empire and battles.


    I am playing venice at the moment, after a not so hot run with sicily and denmark (Go read Mtw2 general forums)

    Venice is SHOCKINGLY easy for me thus far.

    Early on I made a alliance with the pope and bribed him, and since I had a large navy and several ships I simply sailed south and took out sicliy. At this point the Byzatines attacked me and I struck back at them as well taking the small city on eastern greece. Usually when I kill leaders it dosn't help me but for whatever reason when I killed the leaders of both sicily and By somehow this made them enter a ceasefire.

    I just launched a crusade against the turks, which I think is best as you want to keep the byzatines surrounded.

    Right now the By's are taking the other turkish terrotories. My hope is to take The byzantine lands of west and let them fight the mongols later on.

    The key for me has been sacking cities, these guys get a wide variety of good city troops, so not as much need for castles.

  12. #102
    Member Member anweRU's Avatar
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    Jan 2009
    Bangor, ME

    Default Re: Venice

    I hadn't played METW2 for a while, but installed it on my new comp, along with the Kingdoms expansion. I'm currently playing the Grand Campaign with the retrofit mod I downloaded from the Total War site.

    May be it is a peculiarity of the retrofit mod, but most of the dire warnings in this thread did not come to pass. I started out with allying with HRE & buying Bologna, then got the Florence mission. My Doge besieged Florence all by himself, and utterly vanquished the garrison when they sallied forth. I allied with the Pope, kept bribing him. In the mean time, the councillor captured Zagreb, left the garrison, and immediately returned to Venice, building watch towers along the mountain passes to the north.

    I had started building the first level siege works in Venice the first turn, built a ballista as soon as I could, then a ballista. By turn 7 I captured Milan, which the Milanese had left with only a couple of units as they attacked a rebel stack to the west... It took me several turns to get into a position to capture Genoa. Again the Milanese Duce took the majority of his units out of Genoa, apparently to reinforce Dijon which he had captured. The Milanese were stuck in Dijon, with two full stacks, one in the city, and one outside. Then they went to war with the French as well, but didn't actually attack any French cities.

    In the mean time, I captured Durazzo within the first 7 or 8 turns, and built two watchtowers (immediately to the east, and one close to Corinth) on the border with the Byzantines. They came asking for an alliance, which I accepted. I noticed them preparing a huge stack outside of Theselonika, but it turned rebel! It took the Byzantines a long time to finally get rid of it.

    I noticed the same thing happen with a number of different armies with almost all the AI countries. They keep their stacks outside of the cities, and sooner or later those without generals rebel. The Turks had a 3/4 stack outside of Edessa, which just stood there for several turns. It then rebelled, and joined the Edessa garrison!

    I called a crusade on Antioch (rebel), and sent two stacks to capture it, and then Acre. Acre was at ~ 4200 population, so I immediately started on the armourer and barracks series to get a swordsmiths guild. Later I had a mission to capture Damascus, captured Aleppo, and then called a second crusade on Jerusalem.

    In the mean time, I sent a bunch of assassins and spies to Theselonika, along with three priests (one of them became a cardinal). The city rebelled, and a Venetian Crusader army captured it en-passent , and is now garrisoned there, as another Venetian Crusader army took Jerusalem the same turn.

    The same crusade was instrumental in the final destruction of the Milanese, in the thirty-something turn. An army under the councillor had captured Bern, and after replenishing went to the north of Dijon, with a full stack. A second army, joining the Jerusalem Crusade just before I captured the city, approached the city from the south. I fought a major two stack vs two stack battle outside of Dijon. My second army (the mostly infantry army from Bern) had to go around a mountain, and my 3/4 stack valiantly martyred itself. The three Cavalry militia units, and the general made glorious charges (and got up to gold chevrons). Finally the second stack arrived and destroyed the second Milanese army (the lone Feudal knights unit went up to two gold chevrons in one battle!). Incidentally, the battle took over 40 minutes... I thought I had killed all three Milanese general units, and happily accepted the ransom - only to discover a Milanese Duce and a full stack of Italian militias & spear militias left in Dijon! I set up siege, and waited several turns to wear down the defenders (my armies were in no shape to fight the Milanese survivors until I could send reinforcements). Milan has finally been destroyed.

    Sicily is left only with Tripoli, after foolishly betraying our alliance around the 10th or so turn, after I captured Ajjacio. This was just before the first crusade. I sent out a Crusader army from Milan & Venice, with a ballista, which made its way down to Naples. Ironically enough, it bypassed a Sicilian crusader army which got stranded in Bologna. After the crusade ended, my army found itself right in front of Naples, defended only by the Sicilian king and an Italian militia unit. Burn in heck, o foul Sicilian! Palermo was taken several turns later, and Tunis during the second crusade.

    In the mean time, the Moors took Cagliari from the Sicilians. The Pope attacked Cagliari with two full stacks, while it was defended by a single Moor unit. Besieged the city, and .... did nothing! Several turns later he declared a cease-fire with the Moors. Repeated the same several turns later! Now there are two full stacks of the Papal army just hanging out, outside of Moorish Cagliari!

    England and HRE have attacked France. On principle, I canceled my alliances with both aggressors, but somehow my reputation fell from Very Reliable to Reliable. France lost Rheims to the HRE. My assassins and spies are working on inciting a revolt, along with their French counterparts.

    I have a Master Assassins guild in Bologna, a Master Thieves guild in Milan, a Master Merchants guld in Venice, a Master Explorers guild in Antioch, and an inherited Master Masons guild in Naples. I have two Templar's Guilds (Iraklion and Tunis), and just got a Swordsmith Guild in Ragussa, which I plan to upgrade to a Master S.G. soon.

    The funny thing is, the rebel-held Antioch has an Explorers Guild! (which I upgraded later).

    At the moment I am allied with most factions, and at war only with Sicily, which has only Tripoli left. My original Doge died just a couple of turns ago, in his late sixties, so did Pope Gregory just this last turn. One of my cardinals was elected Pope this morning, before I left for work...

    Overall, I've enjoyed the campaign so far. Most of the other factions (except for Russia!) have had stunted growth, due to rebelling armies. I'm at a lost to explain why! I don't remember such issues in METW2 1.1, which is what I played before.
    Ancestry: Turkish & Irish. Guess my favorite factions!

  13. #103
    Member Member anweRU's Avatar
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    Jan 2009
    Bangor, ME

    Default Re: Venice

    Sorry for the double post. Can't we edit our own posts?

    I forgot to mention that I was playing on H/H. I've flooded the map with emissaries, spies & assassins, and Damascus has been my priest factory. I've been hunting other Catholic factions' priests & killing them. Unfortunately, England has three cardinals, all in England, and I can't get there yet - my navy is concentrated in the Central and Eastern Med, and I don't have a settlement on the Atlantic coast yet.
    Ancestry: Turkish & Irish. Guess my favorite factions!

  14. #104
    Guest Gaius Terentius Varro's Avatar
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    Sep 2006
    Spamming Thunder Braves

    Default Re: Venice

    Quote Originally Posted by anweRU View Post
    I hadn't played METW2 for a while, but installed it on my new comp, along with the Kingdoms expansion. I'm currently playing the Grand Campaign with the retrofit mod I downloaded from the Total War site.
    May be it is a peculiarity of the retrofit mod, but most of the dire warnings in this thread did not come to pass. I.
    A well know "feature" of the retrofit mod is a passive campaign AI: it virtually just stands there hardly attacking anything. Fire up a vanilla VH/VH campaign and enjoy the fireworks instread.
    VHI is bugged it should have same weapon stats (incl animation speed) as dismounted boyar sons/dhruzhna or dism huscarls (other one handed armor piercing axe units). Instead it has the stats of a 2 handed axe unit AND a shield. Look up retrofits rebalance of VHI if you don't believe me...

  15. #105
    Member Member Agent Miles's Avatar
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    Jun 2005
    Dayton, Ohio

    Default Re: Venice

    I took a slightly different blitz path (VH/VH) in my campaign. On the first turn I started construction of the first level siege building in Ragusa along with a knight and two sergeants. I sent the units there on a long trip to Thessalonica bypassing the worthless Durazzo. The fleet near Iraklion took all of my forces there to land near Corinth and was then disbanded. I sent the King and all of the other military units in the north to Naples. I sent the spy to Thessalonica/Constantinople and the priest was sent as a scout to Naples/Sicily.
    I then laid siege to and on the very next turn sacked Corinth after hiring some mercs. The cavalry and the other units from Ragusa met up with this force at Thessalonica, which was also sacked after a quick siege. Without HA’s from Corinth, the rest of the Byzantine armies were no match for my cavalry. I bulled my way through them and siege/sacked Constantinople.
    While this was going on, my King’s army used the ballista from Ragusa and sacked Naples without a siege, while the Sicilian navy was unsuccessfully trying to get an army past my fleet into the Adriatic. I then waited out the Pope’s ban on attacking Sicily before eradicating that faction.
    By turn 14 Sicily is gone and the Byzantines have only two weakly garrisoned settlements. My faction is largest and numero uno in everything except finance (where 15k florins in the bank earns me only second place). I can now take all the rebel settlements that I ignored and then spank little Milan.

    P.S. On turn 37 I completed the elimination of the Byz and Milan factions (and took Antioch to complete the crusade). That's it for the short campaign. I don't think that I will continue, as this was a slam dunk.
    Last edited by Agent Miles; 03-19-2009 at 15:38.
    Sometimes good people must kill bad people to protect the rest of the people.

  16. #106
    Totalwar Pest Member coalition's Avatar
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    Feb 2008

    Default Re: Venice

    Amazing faction. Richest in the game and the only one to get the powerful Monster Ribault (Besides Spain).

    Also can field Musketeers....Mhmmm

    Great Militia units to defeat enemies in the beginning, easy empire in 30 turns :)

    Richest faction in the game IMO.

  17. #107

    Default Re: Venice

    When I use Venice, I always focus on invading east and fight Hungarian and Byzantine troops quickly and as soon as possible. I think that Venice and Milan are really similar. They have the classic Italian militia/spearmen the only differences are the venetian archers and heavy infantry. I usually don't start to prepare an invasion of Italy and never attack the HRE early.
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  18. #108

    Default Re: Venice

    Somebody stated above that he makes Milan a castle to pump his defense. I wonder why? A venetian city has all the defense it needs alone from itself... And reducing a 3k city income to 1k castle income is someting i would not do when not necessary.

    Taking the italina peninsula first is a good plan and i follow it almost everytime. But i do take Zagreb early and make it a castle, Ragusa then becomes a city. I skip Durazzo if i don't get a mission for it that pays good value for my efforts.
    From Iraklion i take usually Corinth, but only after i've united Italy.
    I seem to grow impatient so i destroy Milan in the first 20 turns with a quick double attack with catapults or spies. Leaves me with some rebel generals to deal later. Sicily is more tricky as it quickly gets hold of some African terrain and other islands, i can't kill them off quickly. So i wait or a excom. that they usually get or until they have at least little Pope protection (four or less crosses). Then i seize quickly their italina posession. I make Sicily a town.
    After i have the whole Italy i turn towards the Byzantines (i forgot to add that my priest did their work here from the start of the game).
    I tend to make a front line with castles at Zagreb, Sofia and military oriented city in Milan. The south central castle of Corinth deploys the rest of the troops. Constantinopole is secured by navy.
    All the islands i take are made cities. This way i controll 19 regions at the time of my current campaign. I have about 300k gold and the best army in the world.

    The Army... it's great... it has to be... you will face Turks at some time so you have to match them at least.
    The city units do their job really well. You will never need to suport your cities with castle units unless you are cought off guard. You have spears, crossbows, muskets, cavalry, cannons...
    The castle units however are better for late period war making. The best infantry in game, very good archers, muskets (thay are from city but you really need them later), a large variety of artillery, great naval units, one of the best light cavalry in game (yest i do mean Stradiots). You really just lack top notch heavy cavalry, but the ones you have will make the job done if you use them wisely.

  19. #109
    Strategist and Storyteller Member Myth's Avatar
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    Apr 2010

    Default Re: Venice

    My advice is to never ever sit with 300k in your treasury. In my last England game i bought cities from the pope for 30-40k every turn just to sit under 50k. Get above 50k and your generals start getting those bad corruption traits.

    I started a new game with Venice last night - playing lategame with "show AI movement" enabled means waiting for 1 minute for each faction to move it's 20 useless diplomats around... Not somthing I'll do again. Venice seems nice, and their starting position is superb. What i did so far:

    Take my spy and both stacks over at Milan. Ignore the rebel settlement in Italy for now. On turn 1 i sell map info only to the Milanese for 500 florins. The guy in the village on the Peloponese peninsula goes to take the rebel settlement up north. The guy on the island next to the holy lands just waits and builds the city up. I disband both large navies Venice starts with. Sure 12 or so Galeons are very strong but you don't need them early on, and that gold is better spent on mercs and town development.

    Early Italian castles are useless, so all three towns are focused on development.

    On turn 2 i reach both Milanese towns with my two stacks, buy the merks and siege them. I sell map info + trade rights to the HRE for 600 gold and move down towards the pope.

    Turn 3 - I take both Milanese towns and wipe their faction off the map. The world briethes a sigh of relief as this treacherous scourge of the Catholic world is no more. The Pope was too slow to react so I got away scott free! And since I didn't have trade rights or alliances with them, my rep stayed constant. I now plan to spraed some Catholic love around with my diplomats, getting the Pope on my side, then launching a Crusade at Jerusalem or even Bhagdad. Maybe I'll take Constantinople on the way, sack it and give it to the Pope, to ensure I can launch crusades later vs Byzantium.
    The art of war, then, is governed by five constant
    factors, to be taken into account in one's deliberations,
    when seeking to determine the conditions obtaining in the field.

    These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth;
    (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline.
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  20. #110

    Default Re: Venice

    Is there any way to avoid war with the Byzantines as Venice? I see some here have had them come asking for an alliance, but I cannot get one for love nor money (well I suppose they MIGHT agree if I gave them 4 cities and every penny I had). I have played and won as Venice and wanted to try again without fighting quite as much. In particular I wanted to try to make nice with Byzantium, but they just wont have it. I gifted them Durazzo and let Irakion go rebel so that we would not cross swords over that. We exchanged map info and trade rights (and I didn't ask for anything for that either!) and my relations are Very Bad and they laugh in my face when I offer an alliance (well I like to think they are laughing inside the computer).

    It is early in the game (turn 29ish) I have the usual 5 northern cities, Zagreb, Ragusa, Bern and Antioch so am in no way powerful enough to make the AI want to hate me. I have alliances with 3 other nations and am not at war with anybody (although my crusading army is about to expand my empire at Egypt's expense)

  21. #111
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Aug 2005
    In ur nun, causing a bloody schism!

    Default Re: Venice

    There's a way to avoid war with anyone, but there's a cost. Byzantium is Venice's natural enemy. Secure modern day Greece and Big C and you'll be fine.

    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
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  22. #112

    Default Re: Venice

    How to put Italy under your boot in 5 turns: (VH/VH)

    Turn 1:

    • Take Cristiano Selvo and the garrison at Iraklion and get them on the ships neighbouring the island. Destroy all buildings you can at Iraklion for some extra cash, and set the ships destination to drop the troops off at Palermo on Sicily (on my first attempt with Venice, Sicily attacked Iraklion by about turn 9 or so - so it’s worth getting rid of. As an extra point, you can destroy some of the ships to get rid of some upkeep costs in following turns).

    • Next take your diplomat outside of Venice and strike up a conversation with Bologna. Agree to an alliance and trade rights as well as exchanging Iraklion for Bologna. The HRE should “barely accept”. (You can buy Bologna from the HRE in the alliance for 3850 florins instead of exchanging it for Iraklion, but by keeping Iraklion you will come to blows with the Byzantine Empire sooner rather than later and also you won’t be able to take your full garrison out of Iraklion either to take Palermo - so the choice is yours). Leave the diplomat where he is.

    • Move your ships near Venice next to the third island along the coast of the Ragusa region, leaving them by the coast. Take Alessandro Selvo and the two units of spear milita in Ragusa and stick them on the ships, leaving one unit of peasant archers to garrison Ragusa and keep the peace (might not be necessary, but it never hurts). Destroy all buildings at Ragusa you can, and take your spy on that coast and also set him to board the ships.

    • Take Councillor Bartolomeo and take Zagreb. Make as many units whole as possible and leave the weakest to garrison Zagreb to keep the peace, then with the rest of you army make for the same boat you stuck Alessandro on.

    •Take four of the five mercenary crossbowmen from Bologna and siege Florence, building a battering ram.

    • Take Doge Domenico and a unit of peasant archers and make a fort at the space in the Alps north of Venice. Leave the archers and then set Doge to rendezvous with the mercenary crossbowmen outside of Florence the following turn.

    •Recruit a unit each of Italian spear militia and Italian militia at Venice, and build whatever buildings you want to at Bologna and Venice. Take your merchant and go for whatever resource you think is best (the silk outside Constantinople trades for a lot, but it takes a while to reach).

    Turn 2:

    • Complete your move with Domenico, take Florence, leave as small a garrison as you can there and make for Genoa.

    • Recruit a unit of Italian militia at Venice.

    • Complete Councillor Bartolomeo and his army’s move from the previous turn, as well as the spy’s, and set ship to dock your army at the western side of the Naples region.

    • Move closer to Palmero with your ships containing Cristiano.

    • With your diplomat gift the HRE with 250 florins per turn for 200 turns, ensuring their alliance. The fort you created in the first turn should have trapped their army so you will still be able to reach them with your diplomat. If you attempt this in the first turn, they will refuse, saying that they don’t feel comfortable accepting whilst giving nothing in return - which is why you needed to leave your diplomat in place last turn. Ordinarily by turn five Milan and the HRE will have an alliance, and any moves you make against Milan will cause your and the HRE’s alliance to break - making it vitally important to deal with Milan as soon as possible. Sometimes the HRE will refuse your gift again, if so then try again the next turn, if things went okay make for France with your diplomat (or whoever you want).

    Turn 3:

    • Dock your troops on the western coast of the Naples region, and make for the city.

    • Advance further to Genoa with Domenico, recruiting all the mercs you can.

    • Take your entire garrison out of Venice and make for Milan, you’ll reach the city but not be able to lay siege yet - so war is held at bay for another turn.

    • Move Cristiano closer to Palermo.

    •#The Papal States should send a diplomat to Bologna during their turn (making the acquisition of Bologna vital). Offer them an alliance, trade rights, Ragusa, Zagreb and exchange military access (you may have to run troops through Rome and they’ll definitely have to run troops through your lands to reach Ragusa and Zagreb). Then gift them 250 florins per turn for 200 turns. This makes the perfect buffer against Hungary, and to some extent with the Byzantine Empire though they usually will send boats to Naples with armies anyway as they seem determined to make war with you for whatever reason.

    Turn 4:

    • Dock Cristiano at Palermo, and with every army engage the required city. It helps to build two battering rams instead of one where possible on the off-chance one goes up in flames during a siege. Sometimes an army waits outside Naples, if this is the case you can take Naples this turn. You’ll notice that Palermo has one general unit garrisoned only, the rest are laying siege to Tunis.

    • Remember to disband the troops you used to garrison Ragusa and Zagreb so you don’t have to pay their upkeep.

    Turn 5:

    • Conquer. Milan is a tough fight but all the rest are very easy, and you’ll kill off both Milan and Sicily in one fell swoop - giving you the entirety of Apennine Peninsula apart from Rome. If the Pope and asks you to cease hostilities - don’t; your reputation won’t suffer greatly and will bounce back to “outstanding” within a turn or two due to your tribute. I would recommend sending Cristiano with a small force to siege Cagliari in the same turn, and deploy Domenico to start blocking up the Alps with forts.
    Last edited by The_Adm0n; 09-16-2012 at 00:54.

  23. #113
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    Default Re: Venice

    Quote Originally Posted by Myth View Post
    My advice is to never ever sit with 300k in your treasury. In my last England game i bought cities from the pope for 30-40k every turn just to sit under 50k. Get above 50k and your generals start getting those bad corruption traits.
    And I wondered why my venetian governours all turned into corrupt, embezzling Aesthetics with expensive tastes. One even becoming an Arse. Next campaign I will keep my treasury lower.

    I started a new game with Venice last night - playing lategame with "show AI movement" enabled means waiting for 1 minute for each faction to move it's 20 useless diplomats around... Not somthing I'll do again.
    When the AI moves their units and they are in your sightrange they will slowly walk along their coloured lines. Simply press the left mouse button and they will walk much faster.

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