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Thread: Sicily

  1. #31
    Member Member DensterNY's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sicily

    Well, I vegged out this Sunday and played a nice long day of MTW2 with the Sicilians and utilized the different strategy offered here. Wow, what a difference.

    First thing it is such an enormous strategic advantage to get rid of Durazzo which pretty much guarantees having your entire Eastern flank protected. And if you give it to the Papal States you get to tie them up in wars with the Byzantine Empire and the Venitians. Plus, with Venice getting excommunicated you can call up Crusades against them to take Venice to complete your conquest of Italy. Plus, after taking Bologna and Genoa and putting stacks in those cities I'm pretty much guarded from any European aggression which leaves me to wage war on the Muslims.
    "The greatest pleasure is to vanquish your enemies and chase them before you, to rob them of their wealth and see those dear to them bathed in tears, to ride their horses and clasp to your bosom their wives and daughters."

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  2. #32
    I just became a... Member Out's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sicily

    Well, I followed a lot of this, but had a couple unique moves.

    My first move was to load my two armies into ships and sail them away, one to the Council of Noble's mission, Durazzo, and the other to Tunis. I conquered both, gifted Durazzo to the Pope AFTER getting a trade agreement from the Byzantine Princess wandering the area, whilst sailing the Durazzo conquerers off to Sardinia and Corsica.

    Meanwhile, I built a peasant garrison in Tunis and sent that army over to take Tripoli. At this point, the size of my army was greater than the income I was producing, so I was having problems converting castles into cities, but I wasn't too worried. I disbanded all of the African army, sans garrison forces, while sailing my army in Corsica back to the Italian mainland, where Florence was still in rebel control. I had already purchased Bologna from the HRE a few turns earlier, because disbanding the African army had brought me back to positive income, and I had intended to gift Bologna to the Pope and focus purely on Southern/Eastern conquests.

    But, with Florence still in rebel control, I decided to hatch a risky plan and attempt to become a power in Northern Italy. I took Florence, and with Bologna and Florence together, I was going to build up my forces, focus on building my trade income, which was already growing faster than I could spend it, and then move to the East. However, Milan and Venice had other [strange, on the part of Venice] ideas.

    This is where I think my plan became a bit...lucky. Milan attacked me, but with Milan's massive Papal approval, it didn't get them excommunicated. Rather, my ensuing retaliation [silly eye for an eye attitude that I had at the time...think I was roleplaying a bit too hard and wanted revenge] got ME excommunicated. However, my leader was old, and so was the Pope, so one of them was going to die soon. I banked on that and launched an assault on Genoa, planning on at least crippling Milan's assets. I took Genoa, a turn later Genoa managed a Heroic victory over a full banner Milanese army, and two turns later an army of militia-men and mercenaries had taken over Milan, killing all three of their Faction's generals in the same battle. Suddenly, Northern Italy was looking very similar to the "Pentagram Start" [as Vladimir has put in the Venice guide] of Milan/Venice, except I also had the massive trade of Sardinia/Corsica + Northern Africa + Sicily.

    During this Milanese war, and the thing that allowed this conquest to work, in my mind, was Venice's stupidity. They sailed an army down to Sardinia, of all places, and then proceeded to stand next to my city for 6 turns, doing nothing. They then got back on their boat, sailed away, came back two turns later, and THEN laid siege. Of course, during this time, I had prepared the city for an assault and was able to repel their attack with relative ease. However, due to their "patience" I had become un-excommunicated and attacking me resulted in THEIR excommunication. I proceeded to take Venice, finishing the "Pentagram", while my Reliable allies to the North, the HRE took Zagreb. This start has resulted in my domination of all of Italy, has found me a decent ally to the North [for now...] and has given me the largest income of anyone I've played in the early game.

    The only thing I was unable to do, due to being excommunicated for a while, was get the Crusade to be called to a province of my choosing. It was called on Antioch, and I'm probably going to have to take on Egypt next, but beyond that, I should be able to sit still for a while and build my armies without much fear of making too many factions angry.
    "My milkshake brings all ye gentlefolk to the yard, and they're like 'It's better than thine.' Verily, it's better than thine, I could teach you, but I must levy a fee."

  3. #33
    Guest Gaius Terentius Varro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sicily

    I never let go of Durazzo since it can be made into a large town
    (a port =trade) in just 8 turns.
    Venice and Byz will come knocking anyways if you're playing on VH. Better fight them there than have them block Sicily or siege Neaples all the time
    Last edited by Gaius Terentius Varro; 08-07-2007 at 22:08.

  4. #34

    Default Re: Sicily

    I love Sicily...it suits my 'genghis khan' play style 100% :)

    This is how i see things:

    Motto 1 : 'cash is king'
    Motto 2: 'why should i work when others do it for me?'

    1. Get those rebel cities nearby including durazzo (which later you can offer to venetians for example to keep them happy - because i frankly could care less about that pathetic settlement). Keep corsica and sardinia though. Tunis as well.
    2. Navy - i cannot stress enough how important is to attack every pirate fleet in the area and up your admirals' command rating. You will face tough fleets later so you need them admirals true sea wolves :)
    3. Prepare for the Genghis Khan style - ask the Pope to initiate a PR for a crusade to antioch, Jerusalem - a city in Palestine - you will be the first to arrive there obviously :)
    - hire those badass crusader units - full stack.
    - get your objective.
    - now ... we begin the vandalism in the area :P Target Egypt and sack their cities, selling the remaining buildings after you get the cities - you will make fortunes, because Egypt is so rich, they musta built nice high level buildings by then. Bear in mind that your former crusader units now cost astronomically to upkeep - you will be prolly on negative cash but you could care less - just continue your rampage and set Egypt back into the stone age. Meanwhile, withthe huge plunders, build up your home towns and armies and be prepared to react should the milanese, venetians and the various local punkasses dare to bother you in any way.

    Leave the egyptian cities ungarrisoned - they will rebel, which is good because you can talk pope into setting up another crusade - good for those units in your mid east stack (experience).
    The costs are immense to upkeep your mid east task force so soon you need another plunder target - turks, byzantines(especially) any rich ass in the med should be targeted. Do not bother to keep the cities - just target some neighbours and plunder everything - you will be slowing them down to a point that they will never be able to recover...and you can take posession of their cities later to claim the win.

    In my experience, if you let them build up for too long, they'll eventually be at least on par with you and perhaps sometimes better and you're in for some tough survival fights. Going on a rampage so early, while your home town continue to expand thanks to your plunders, will make you probably the most powerful force in the med.

    I even eploy this vadalic style when I play the Byzantines even i got no crusades to take part in . I simply rely on huge mercenary armies with some core byz units and lay waste to everyone around me - meanwhile the cash inflow will insure my cities will thrive and ready to support the second part of the game - the conquest :)

  5. #35

    Default Re: Sicily

    ah forgot to mention - playing this way takes away a bit of the subtleties of the game - I mean this is a tactic based on lightning fast actions, pure brute force and nothing more. Things like vice and virtues, proper army composition (just be careful to include some infantry so you can siege:P ), etc etc are irrelevant. All that matters is to be ruthless, fast ... in a word a b!tch to everyone else around :) The mogol invasion will be a declaration of love compared to what you had caused to the world several years back :)

  6. #36
    Member Member Mete Han's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sicily

    In a game when I was sicily in vh vh I experienced something I did not notice or experience before: my armies started to lose man while they were marching from tunis to algiers. I mean my militias started as 75 at the beginning of the journey but by the time I got to my target their numbers were down to 69 or something like that and alos my knights suffered the same. There was no plague or I was not being sieged since the army was out in the field, so how can this happen? Also I never experienced (or notice again) that my armies depleted while they were being sieged in a town while playing with other factions. Would like to hear your ideas and experiences?
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  7. #37
    Member Member BadGenome's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sicily

    Quote Originally Posted by Mete Han
    In a game when I was sicily in vh vh I experienced something I did not notice or experience before: my armies started to lose man while they were marching from tunis to algiers. I mean my militias started as 75 at the beginning of the journey but by the time I got to my target their numbers were down to 69 or something like that and alos my knights suffered the same. There was no plague or I was not being sieged since the army was out in the field, so how can this happen? Also I never experienced (or notice again) that my armies depleted while they were being sieged in a town while playing with other factions. Would like to hear your ideas and experiences?
    Your garrisons will suffer from attrition while under siege, but I can't think of any reason why an army in the field should if you're certain they weren't suffering from the plague. Are you sure they weren't hit by any kind of natural disaster? Those coastal areas can get mighty stormy!

  8. #38
    Member Member Mete Han's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sicily

    Quote Originally Posted by BadGenome
    Your garrisons will suffer from attrition while under siege, but I can't think of any reason why an army in the field should if you're certain they weren't suffering from the plague. Are you sure they weren't hit by any kind of natural disaster? Those coastal areas can get mighty stormy!
    Absolutely no natural disaster or anything was apparent. By the way are there any upgrades that would stop the attrition effect you mentioned under siege because I think I never experienced it during my Turks campaign in which I achieved total domination. Maybe I wasn't besieged that much? Curious!!!
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  9. #39
    Member Member BadGenome's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sicily

    Quote Originally Posted by Mete Han
    Absolutely no natural disaster or anything was apparent. By the way are there any upgrades that would stop the attrition effect you mentioned under siege because I think I never experienced it during my Turks campaign in which I achieved total domination. Maybe I wasn't besieged that much? Curious!!!
    It could be. The number of troops lost during a siege seems to vary a good deal, and sometimes you won't lose any at all during a turn. I'm not really sure what effects it, such as farming upgrades, health bonuses, squalor, etc. Sounds like something for somebody to research!

    Attrition in the field seems very odd, though. Just a shot in the dark, as this is my only other guess - you're not playing with any mods, are you? A few of them have incorporated features to simulate the demands of keeping an army supplied. I assume the consequences of not doing this properly would be similar to what you've experienced, and Tunis to Algiers is one hell of a march.

  10. #40
    Member Member Mete Han's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sicily

    I am playing 1.0 with no mods. But thanx anyway... I am really looking forward to the Kings though and hope that it does not have many bugs.
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  11. #41

    Default Re: Sicily

    You should have 1.2. 1.0 does have some problems.

  12. #42
    Member Member Brusilov's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sicily

    Quote Originally Posted by Patricius
    You should have 1.2. 1.0 does have some problems.
    Yes, I agree - playing M2:TW on 1.02 (as CA refer to it) is a different game completely. The AI does aggressive naval invasions (some are logical others are not - Spain/Portugal have a magical attraction to Dublin/Canaervon).

    Holding onto Corsica and/or Sardinia becomes a major headache as many factions continually invade these islands.

  13. #43
    Man behind the screen Member Empirate's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sicily

    Corsica and Sardinia are good to have! I like that the AI tries to invade, it feels realistic. I hold onto Sardinia at the moment, but Corsica went to the Pope before I got there. It has changed hands one or two times in between, but now His Hatness calls it a part of the Patrimonium Petri again.
    Some naval invasions that would make perfect sense don't seem to happen, though. I've yet to see somebody else than Sicilians in Sicily - and this counts all campaigns I've been playing. Sicily is really juicy, trade-wise. Why doesn't the AI go there? Dublin, OTOH, is just a stupid move for the Portuguese (who always seem to end up there even after being kicked out of Iberia).
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  14. #44
    Member Member Si GeeNa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sicily

    Hello All,

    I find the Sicilian game to be a very opportunistic one.

    My first Council of Nobles mission saw me land in Durazzo for a quick battle. After conquering this village, I was intending to gift it to the Pope as I was concerned that the Byzantine will wage war over this common border.

    However, when I received the Byzantine Princess in Durazzo, I made the offer to marry my Faction Heir to her and she agreed. This secured my Eastern border so to speak.

    Having allied with other factions, I noticed a Venetian army land next to Durazzo and anticipating a siege in their next move, I attacked them first. As they were still in the beach area, it was a very quick slaughter.

    Next up, Venice was ex-comm ( They tend to raise hell against Milan, HRE and Sicily all at the same time.) and I raised a Crusade to Ragusa, which ended in the next turn.

    Another couple of turns lapsed, in which I was busily handling the Moors in Naples, and I raised another Crusade to Venice itself.

    This time round, I was unable to conquer Venice, as the Poles pipped me to it but I had a relatively large standing army. Where to next?

    While manuevering my army towards Zagreb, I realised, through my Princess, that Rome and Florence has fallen to Venice. So I moved my army quickly to capture Rome.

    Having done so, my Princess approached Venice for a Ceasefire and Florence, in return for some Florins per turn. It worked!

    The Venetian Powerhouse is now broken. They have Milan, Genoa, Bern, i.e., ex Milan provinces.

    The Milanese have entered into French- HRE areas.

    Another opportunistic crusade was declared on HRE Bologna. Another opportunisitc land grab.

    It has been quite a fulfilling game so far, from my earlier concerns about Byzantine, Moorish, Venetian enemies to none. The Byzantine was allies for a period of time before getting wiped clean by Hungarians.

    The Moors are habitually invading Naples but so far it's just target practise.

    The Pope? He's got booted to Corsica and Sardinia. He asked me to return Rome, I told him I'll use it as my capital from hereon.

    In a previous incarnation, I got stuck in Tunis and Sardinia. Couldn't get a proper game going. All my diplomats were bribed over by Moors.
    Are you righteous? Kind? Does your confidence lie in this? Are you loved by all? Know that I was, too. Do you imagine your suffering will be any less because you loved goodness and truth?

  15. #45
    Merciless Mauler Member TheLastPrivate's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sicily

    Are the dism. norman knights any different from DFKs? I see the stats are nearly the same but are they different in terms of mass, morale, and such?


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  16. #46
    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sicily

    This was my first game with the sicilians and boy, it's been fun. VH game/Medium Battles 1ypt.

    Instead of playing out the usual Tunis/Cagliari/Aiaccio gambit I decided to head straight for the Holy Land.

    Turn 1. Consolidated all soldiers that I could spare and sent them towards my Adriatic fleet.

    Turn 2. Kiss up to the Pope to get 9 crosses on the meter and immediately declare crusade on Antioch. Packed up most of my army and sent them off...

    Turn 4. I must have forgotten that I was playing on VH: all my neighbors, sensing how thin my defences were descended upon my 2 provinces...

    Turn 7. Antioch is mine, but my income is deep in the red. Sent what I could to grab Aleppo.

    Turn 8. Repelled a castle assault on Palermo, but just barely: lost the King.

    Turn 9. Lost Naples to a Byzantine full stack vs my one family general + 1 unit of spear militia. Didnt stand a chance. The good news is, Naples' sacrifice wasn't in vain....its troops are now guarding Palermo.

    Turn 11. Antioch is my new capital, I have Aleppo and an army en route to Damascus.

    Turn 13. Another heroic defence of Palermo nets me a MoTH with good traits.
    All of my navy and all of my buildings in Palermo are scrapped to improve funds.

    Turn 15. Damascus is mine. Sacked it (something I ormally do not do) for some badly needed cash. Bought some mercs for protect Palermo and started to build up the economy in Antioch.

    Turn 19. Somebody declares a crusade on Egyptian-held Jerusalem. I waste no time and jump in with every man I can muster.

    Turn 21. yet another assault on Palermo repelled. Venetians ask for peace. Peace granted for 1000 florins.

    Turn 22. Jerusalem is mine! Got paid by the pope AND sacked the city. Good times, I might actually survive this campaign. GrabbedWhatever trrops I could and sent them to take Acre. Can't have an Egyptian stronghold in the middle of my lands. Finally got enough cash to build a fortress in Palermo. Both Byzantines and Moors asked for peace. Peace granted, cash transferred.

    Turn 25. Hospitallers ask for a minor chapter house in Antioch. Granted. Man, it's good to finally have some money.

    Turn 26. Egyptians are flushed out of Acre. I now have a fortress in outremer right smack in the middle of my kigdom. Perfect.

    Turn 27. Sent and army to grab rebel Edessa. Economy is humming along quite nicely.

    Turn 28. JIHAD!!! Oh, this one is to Baghdad...*whew*. Lucky me.

    Turn 29. Moors break peace and assault Palermo... say hello to Dismounted Norman Knights. I will never have to worry about Palermo again, as now I have both the cash and the men to protect my one and only European posession.

    Turn 30. Grabbed Edessa. Now it is time to sit back, relax and build up. The Crusader Kingdom of Sicily is secure, at least for the time being... Oh, what's that? Oh, that's just a full stack of my trusted allies the Milanese landing on the beach near Palermo. They can't POSSIBLY be thinking about backstabbing me, now can they? *queues up more Dismounted Norman Knights*...
    "And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman

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  17. #47
    Platinum Member Member Anonymous II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sicily

    I haven't bothered to read all the posts in this thread, but I still have some views to add to the intial strategy for Sicily.

    It's obvious that Corsica and Sardinia is a natural place to expand to. You have also discussed whether to take these islands or Tunis (which also is a natural target) first. I would say none of the above. Especially Cagliari (Sardinia) and Tunis won't be targetet by other factions for a while. Milan will eventually go for Ajaccio (Corsica) since their Council of Nobles ask them to do so. BUT! Florence is a target both for Milan, HRE and Papal States, so you would want to take that city first (unless you are OK with waging war with other factions early on), then Ajaccio.

    I also think the best thing to do here is to turn Florence into a castle since Milan will be on your back pretty soon. I agree with those who say Palermo should be turned into a city since it will bring you lots of revenues.

    What to do with the castles in Ajaccio, Cagliari and Tunis is a matter of taste in my opinion.


  18. #48
    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sicily

    I find Palermo does the job for recruitment until you get deeper into enemy territories. If you go Westward Granada is an ideal castle as it covers Spain and north Africa. To the north, you're best to take Bern or Innsbruck if you get sucked into wars with the 3 north Italian players. If you go east into the Balkans, Raqusa is ideal for a castle until you see off the Venetians, Sofia is also ideal as it is near Byzantine territory and protects the inevitable Hungarian onslaught from the north.

    Do not take Ajaccio if you play in v1.2! Not until Milan, Spain, and Portugal are well beaten. During my yo-yo conquests of Ajaccio, armies from Spain, Portugal, and Milan were all present on the Island, not to mention my Papal allies who conquered it from the Spanish once, only to loose it to the Portuguese and allow my Normans to step in.

    I wanted to play the role of the crusader in this campaign, but Ajaccio got me sucked into norther conflicts, and although I defeated the Moors I'm now fighting wars in France, and have not even set foot in the Holy Land, which has just been completely over-run by the Mongols.

    As for the armies, a combination of Norman Knights / Muslim Archers is a force to be reckoned with using repeat charges and fire arrows to demoralise the enemy. And your cities, vital to the sea trade, can be reasonably protected with decent Italian militia.
    At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.

  19. #49

    Default Re: Sicily

    First post here, so place nice

    I found Sicily a dream to play (H/H, BigMap mod). Having played a number of other campaigns, usually all an uphill struggle, it was nice to pick and choose your own fights.

    Firstly, you have a nice defensible positon. BigMap gives you the incredible advantage of THREE extra towns to take, and the only real competition is seafaring Venice. I took them al fairly soon, but they were just an annoying diversion this early as they were worth nothing, and meant my Kings army in Naples couldnt do anything.

    Paramount to my success was taing Ajaccio and Cagliari. Yes, they are the cause for quitea few wars, but mainly only with Milan (at least in my game). And what happens when a catholic nation attacks the Popes best mate (since you share a border, and presumedly have an alliance with him..)? Thats right, excommunication, and open house on Milans lands. Then you replace Milan as chief pain in North Italy, starting a war with Venice that wasnt hard for me to finish, and sue for peace, gifting the Pope Zara for a buffer against Venetian reprisals.

    Whilst I swatted the North Italians with my back hand, I needed to keep Papal favour up whilst expanding. For that I called a crusade against Tripoli, but only after positioning a large force with 2 generals outside of Marrakesh. Even with many cities, my economy was close to the wall, but once the crusade had begun, I just swept the Moorish lands up, sacking and installing puppet militia behind. Roger had finished claiming rebels by then, and finished the crusade whilst the majority of my troops were still in Tunis. Oh well, North Africa was mine!

    I had a good peace with France and Germany going after gifting Zagreb and Bern away (they were too far out and isolated to readily keep, and I wanted secure borders), so I turned my attention at shutting down my border further.

    Waltzing into the Iberian peninsula was easy, and I took Cordoba, Granada and valenciav with hardly a struggle. However that left me with borders with Spain and Portugal, and I dislike sharing borders at all, never mind with people i didnty have alliances with... One quick alliance with Spain, a small greasing of palms here, and soon Portugal was crushed, with Spain doing the majority of the work, but me owning Porto, Lisbon, Sevilla and Zaragoz. Not sure how that worked out, but Im not complaining!

    But still, Spain was now weak, and i wanted more land. Luckly, Leon wasnt defended at all, so I sent an army up to Porto to strike. By curiosity I tried bribing Leon first, and netted it for the low price of 30,000 florins. It almost drained me of cash, but it pissed Spain off a lot, they started a war, got excommed, and i didnt lose rep. Genius. Add Castille and Pamplna to my cities, and trade Bordeaux for Narbonne.

    I now owned two defensible peninsulas and the land at their back door, am on good relations with the three nations I directly border (Egypt doesnt count as it is many turns march/sail away, unless I include the likes of Scotland and England as 'neighbours')

    My next moves to claim my victory conditions is to convert Africa at the force of the sword (just for lulz), claim the quagmire of the British Isles (which are quite expanded in BigMap, and are currently in a 4 way Battle Royale between Denmark, Scotland, England and what remains of Portugal), and then call for a crusade to the Holy Land. Im trying to win with the Pope on my side (seeing as I have a Sicilian Pope and 9 cardinals...), so Im going to conquer most of the Holy Lands, gift to Pope, wait till he moves capital there, the trade Antioch and Acre for Rome. That, or gift him Ireland. He deserves that blasted hellhole!

  20. #50
    Member Member penguinking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sicily

    Sicily is an extremely fun faction to play as. You have an easily defensible base and are in a fairly rich area. The first thing I did was convert Palermo to a city. I then grabbed Tunis and Florence, converting Tunis to a city as well. As Sicily, you have some nice castle units, but early on they really weren't necessary- you're Italian militia units are quite adequate, together with mercenaries. I sent my princess to the HRE and bought Bologna. I took Sardinia, Corsica, and Tripoli, converting both castles to cities. I declared a crusade against Jerusalem and sacked the city. I then either purchased or conquered six other cities in the area. Public order was difficult to maintain, but eventually I got all the provinces around 65% catholic, which helped, as did my 10-chivalry generals. At this point, Venice and Milan attacked me and were excommunicated. I took all of Venice's cities (except crete) and Genoa in retaliation; unfortunately, Milan was reconciled before I could take Milan.
    My general advice would be to convert castles to cities to help your economy. Also, give the Pope money to stay in favor with the Pope, and try to get at least four or five cardinals to win you the next Papal election. Also, do not take Durazzo. You will regret it. That instantly plunges you into a two front war with Venice and the Byzantines early in the game, while your economy in still bad. This can be managed, but it is extremely difficult.
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  21. #51
    Warrior on the edge of time Member kitbogha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sicily

    Hi fellow Sicilians,
    Just finished as the Moors and wanted something a little different, so I thought I'd try Sicily. I have not yet played a proper seafaring nation and this one seems pretty exciting. Thanks for the advice, I will let you know how I get on and any contributions I can make.
    regards
    Kitbogha
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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sicily

    I took Durazzo quickly -- since I was expecting it, my fleet was en route with some troops prior to the council declaring the objective -- and gleefully pocketed the florins for my nascent economy.

    Recognizing from an earlier Venetian campaign that attempting to hold Durazzo meant war with both the Byzantines and Venetians early on, and being desirous of a good economy prior to such a conflict, I gave Durazzo to the Holy Father as part of an: alliance, map, military access both ways, give Durazzo deal. High regard from the Pope and Durazzo was now somebody elses' problem.

    Eventually led to an early excom for il Doge during which I was "forced" to relieve him of Venice in support of His Holiness.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  23. #53
    Warrior on the edge of time Member kitbogha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sicily

    Nice campaign-played 24 turns last night and all is going according to plan. I am now the proud owner of Milan, Genoa, Tunis, Bologna, Florence, Ajaccio and Cagliari in addition to the original starting settlements. Milan made the mistake of attacking Ajaccio (and being beaten back with huge losses from my meagre garrison) and seeing as I am the Popes' best mate they have paid dearly. One quickly declared crusade later and within two turns they are two settlements down! I am aware that I am leaving my garrisons stretched rather thin so the next turns will be consolidation and planning.

    I am enjoying this campaign immensely! More later.


    MORE:
    Turn 71, 17 provinces and about to take Timbuktu next turn. My dominion of the Italian peninsula is complete and also North Africa (up to the borders of the Egyptians, who will be my next targets after the Moors are rooted out of Iberia).
    have really concentrated on my manipulation of the Pope in this campaign with , I feel, great success.
    I have simply waited for the soonest opportunity to ask for crusades (the button on Papal realtions menu lights up-check it every couple of turns.), picked a suitable strategic target, near which I have stationed my King accompanied by seven other units. I move in on the next turn and loading up with cheap crusading units, take the offending settlement.
    It's childs play! My King is the veteran of four crusades and of course my realtions with the Pope are perfect, I get to safely declare war on targets of my choice and am paid for it by the Pope, while there is no comeback for attacking other Catholics!!! The other factions make it ludicrously easy by not playing along with Il Pape's wishes. It is made easier, possibly by my factions geographical location-right next to the traitorous Milanese and Viennese, who play into my trap time and time again. Even if they are being good, the Moors or other Muslim factions can be selected as targets. The other positive of this ploy is that you never get sent on crusades to The Holy Land, as crusades can only be declared evry so often.
    This is definately the way to go, if you want to get all Machiavellian-and let's face it why play the game if you don't? I haven't even had to load the College of Cardinals with Sicilians, which would in itself be quite easy with all the converting of Muslims I am doing in North Africa.
    God I love this game....

    MORE:
    Turn 102-27 provinces are now mine. The AI tried a nasty trick on me around turn 96, I was besieging one of the French towns, secure in the knowledge that this was ok, as they had been excommunicated and as I attacked the city a message came up which I only read after the battle, saying that they had been readmitted in the Churchs' good graces. My approval rating with the Pope went from perfect to mediocre overnight. Could I get a Crusade commissioned against any of my preferred targets? No way.
    Luckily, I listened to the advice of my fellow Generals on this site and accepted the mission from my Council of Barons (or whatever they're called) to take Durazzo-that troublesome province-took it and gifted it to the Pope who was so grateful my approval went back to perfect. Next turn, my proposal to Crusade against Lisbon was suddenly a great idea and away we went again..... so, a big "thank you " for the advice.
    I am nearly half way through the game and so far all of the Crusades have been dictated by my faction, half of my Generals are titled "the Crusader", my armies are crammed with cheap crusading troops, the Pope loves me and I have yet to be sent to the Middle East!
    I have now loaded the College of Cardinals with around eight of my people, no real intent to do so, but my expansion in North Africa has meant mass conversions-which is always nice....can't wait for the aged Pole in the Vatican to die so I can get a Sicilian in charge again.
    My next moves are:
    1) Take Bruges from the Danes, who are out of favour with the church. I am currently besieging it.
    2) Mop up Leon, Pamplona and the other province in the Pyrenees (whose name escapes me), thus wiping out the Portuguese-maybe even get one of them on a Crusade. Two armies are moving south from Toulouse through the mountains as I speak.
    3) If noone else is p***ing me off by this point, I will turn to Egypt, who I imagine are being troubled by our friends The Mongols by now, I will know better soon as I am sending a few priests on conversion duties to soften up the enemy.

    I am dying for gunpowder to be invented, it always surprises me how late in the game this comes.
    Last edited by kitbogha; 05-31-2008 at 15:14.
    "I like a man who grins when he fights"
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  24. #54
    Member Member The Black Sheep's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sicily

    Sicily is definitely my favourite faction. This sea-fearing nation is my most chosen faction, with Spain right after that.

    Currently I’m playing on VH/H with 1.03 version and changed the time table to 1 year/turn. And I love it!

    Opening moves

    I’m a very defensive player, something I don’t see much on this forum, so maybe I have an alternative tactic than most of you. Money always seems to be a bit tight in the beginning, so my first focus is on economics. For this purpose I transform Palermo into a city early on. It may cost some money, but it pays back right after a few turns. Another benefit that it brings is you don’t have to upgrade your castle into a fortress early on, when you don’t even have the money.

    The first Council of Nobles mission sends you to Durazzo, and as a reward you’ll get 2500 florins. That means money that can be taken. This is my first goal of conquest. A little detail: I’m always switching Prince Simon with Alberto as general and governor. The reason for this act is a look in the future. Simon grows a far better faction heir if you do not let him rot in Palermo, but send him into some fights. If you don’t do anything special with him, he will be just an average king later in the game, and not a good one.

    Meanwhile you must take attention for the region of Naples. Later in the game the Holy Roman Empire will always be bothering you there, so I often place a fort between the eastern seaside and the mountains, securing that flank as well. Also engage an alliance with the Pope, he will be your best friend in the game. You princess Mathilda is well suited to be a diplomat, but as soon as she has 4 or 5 charm, I advise to marry her to Alberto, making him part of the royal family. With 5 charm Mathilda and Alberto form an ideal breeding station, and offspring will soon fill your family tree.

    One you’ve taken Durazzo, gift it to the Pope or ask some money for it. This will increase your standing with him, and makes your eastern border secured. With a bit of luck the Byzantines will attack Durazzo sooner or later, than you can step in and play saving angel by aiding the Pope in battle, witch maintains your position as best friend of The Papal states, with al the benefits with it. The army that returns from Greece can be retrained first, and then send after Tunis. Cagliari is very often already taken by other factions.

    Tunis can be captured in a crusade, but on VH/H the Pope does not always sees the benefit of crusading into North Africa. Slaughtering the incoming Moors however is a good way of pleasing the Pope and gets your priests to cardinals by converting Islamic regions. I mostly keep Tunis a castle, because it will be attacked quite often. The harbour however can be improved, making a trading triangle between Tunis, Palermo and Rome. From now on, your economics will most probably be running up, so you can improve your army.

    Catholic wars

    From this point in the game (around turn 20) you’ll have to deal with a Catholic faction. The Holy Roman Empire is often putting naval pressure upon you, but as soon as they are out of Italy, the form no threat anymore, except of some assassins and spies around Naples. As soon as the northern Italians have bounced the HRE back into Germany, you better restore relations.
    After that, go after one of the islands in the north, Ajaccio or Cagliari. Sometimes one of them is under Papal rule, so out of option. Make the castle into a city for a strong economic position.

    Often the Islands are controlled by Italian factions, so maybe waging a war on them is necessary. If you do this, make sure that your fort near Naples is well filled with garrison. Sometimes the Milanese or Venetians decide to step inside your borders near Naples. Holding the fort will prevent this. Meanwhile you have to maintain your naval supremacy, so block the docks of the factions you’re at war with.

    -----------------------------------------------------------

    Tomorrow I’ll continue my Sicilian chronicles and write another post here.
    Last edited by The Black Sheep; 06-02-2008 at 15:56.

  25. #55
    Member Member WarMachine187's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sicily

    Yeh,sicily was alot of fun.First thing i did was conquer the islands and push for normans.Then i got into a war with pope and went on to conquer rome.Suprisingly,no other christian faction attacked me, and all my alliances are still intact.From there i went deeper into italy and started a war wit the HRE.Norman sicilians easily outmatch most of the early infantry in italy.

  26. #56
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sicily

    Trying an odd strategy.

    Have conquered a number of provinces, but have given/traded with the Papal states until the Papacy controls a broad circle of provinces completely walling off mine (Marseille, Genoa, Milan, Stauffen, Bern, Innsbruck, Nuremburg, Venice, Florence, Ragusa, Durazzo, Corinth, Rome, Ajaccio, Caralis, Palermo, Naples, & Rome (traded to me for 2 provinces) from the other Catholic factions and the Byzantines. My trade florins are ridiculously good. I have then moved against the Moors in Spain (Granada) and North Africa. If I acquire Bordeaux and give it to the Papacy, and if Spain attacks me to take Granada (as I suspect), then I'll add all of Iberia and North Africa to the total, with most of the rest of Europe and the Islamists unable to say "boo."
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  27. #57
    Maximizer of Marginal Utility Member Snoil The Mighty's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sicily

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
    Trying an odd strategy.

    Have conquered a number of provinces, but have given/traded with the Papal states until the Papacy controls a broad circle of provinces completely walling off mine (Marseille, Genoa, Milan, Stauffen, Bern, Innsbruck, Nuremburg, Venice, Florence, Ragusa, Durazzo, Corinth, Rome, Ajaccio, Caralis, Palermo, Naples, & Rome (traded to me for 2 provinces) from the other Catholic factions and the Byzantines. My trade florins are ridiculously good. I have then moved against the Moors in Spain (Granada) and North Africa. If I acquire Bordeaux and give it to the Papacy, and if Spain attacks me to take Granada (as I suspect), then I'll add all of Iberia and North Africa to the total, with most of the rest of Europe and the Islamists unable to say "boo."

    Not such an odd strategy, one I stumbled upon 100% by accident once I got everything reloaded and got some vital gaming time to kill. I similarly walled myself off in one of the first campaigns I'd played in over a year and while pondering how to get around it without stepping on my best (and only real) allies' toes I decided to give everything a once-over. Then I noticed just how flush with florins I really was (I was spending like a drunk in Vegas), given the fact that I was either late in the early game, or early in the midgame depending on point of view. Having the Bishop of Rome on nearly the totality of my borders, and another region or two nearby by sea seemed to have a very nice impact on trade and allowed me to maintain a much better navy than I was used to for this relatively early stage. I think by having so many friendly ports-of-call it makes it that much more lucrative for the routes that get generated (not to mention my merchants can camp out in relative safety on high price goods in trade-friendly territory). I am close to finishing up this one now actually, so away to battlements!

  28. #58

    Default Re: Sicily

    First post.
    I'm playing a M/M 1.0 unmodded Sicily game and it looks like the opening steps for Sicily are even more crucial than for other factions. Factions like Milan have rich cities that can help them support early troops and building, but factions like Sicily and Portugal tend to begin with an economic disadvantage that means your early troops won't be replaced for a few turns, and you can't get stronger troops until your economy kick-starts.

    I went the islands way, ignoring Durazzo as I had no intention of fighting the Byzantines until I had some proper units to throw at them. Palermo I kept as a castle, and Naples (obviously) as a city. I split my navy, shipped my field general in Sicily to Sardinia, and my garrison + general in Palermo to Corsica. My general and garrison in Naples went to Florence. The great thing about Sicily is that you can throw pretty much all your troops into your expansion effort without fear of attack upon your base.

    After building a bowyer in Palermo (to prep for recruiting muslim archers) and a town guard in Naples (I'd be needing those spear militias), and a few units in Palermo and spies in Naples to help with the sieges, my treasury went red. But before that happened I made sure I got on the Pope's good side. For some reason several of the factions seem to think trade rights with Sicily is generous (and alliance even more so), so I took advantage and sold trade rights for about 1000 florins. Never happened to me with Milan or any other faction. My princess's charm rose by 3 or 4 points, and I had outstanding relations. I decided to save alliance for when I needed to recover Papal trust (which I would have to, considering my expansion plans against the Italian factions).

    Once I captured Sardinia and Corsica (or Ajaccio and Cagliari if you prefer), my money started coming back quickly, and once I captured Florence I was out of the red. I converted both islands to towns for money, and built with town guards as a priority. In Italy you shouldn't leave any settlement empty...ever. The towns are far too close together for comfort, giving you much less leeway than, say, the Iberian Peninsula or Northern Europe (I do sometimes keep settlements in those areas near-empty for financial reasons). Make use of those superior militia...most of you will already know that Italian spear militia are the equivalent of mercenary spearmen but for one point of defense.

    Now here's where things got a little strange. Apparently Milan didn't get that message about leaving your towns ungarrisoned. When I first sent troops to capture Florence my spy noticed that for some inexplicable reason Milan had left Genoa ungarrisoned. I would have captured it instead of going for Florence, but I ran out of moves and Milan reinforced it with 1 militia by the next turn. Because I was bankrupt I didn't want to deal with Milan and their superior position and crossbows, so I just went for Florence.

    Once my finances were stable and I was busily upgrading in all of my cities (I recommend militia buildings first, then small churches, land clearance, then grain exchange, port before clearance if available), I decided to get me Bologna to boost trade, income, and have a land route from Naples to northern Italy. I bought it for 1100 florins over 15 turns (probably overpaid, but I was filthy rich anyway), and the HRE left Italy. Never go against Bologna using your military - it is almost always fully stacked, and most of the units aren't even militia. They're the castle equivalents. Using your treasury to buy Bologna will probably be better financially than rebuilding your armies from scratch and regarrisoning your now empty cities.

    So I now had a nearly full stack of units that I was originally going to assault Bologna with wandering around. I send my spies to look for new targets...and what do you know. Genoa is empty once more.

    I sent my general from Florence to capture it bloodlessly, and my stack to reinforce it. It didn't get there quite as fast as I would have preferred - Milan had a full stack of units including siege weapons poised within walking distance of Genoa - but for some reason they didn't attack, so I got a whole city, once of the richest in the game, for free. It meant breaking my alliance with Milan, but I've effectively crippled them, so what are they going to do.

    Side note: Buying Bologna somehow also left me with a garrison there of about 6 or 7 Mercenary Frankish Knights. Well, if you really insist on giving them to me...

    Since militia are more than enough most of the time during the early battles, I had put off on upgrading Palermo. The primary reason for upgrading Palermo would be Muslim Archers, but Pavise Crossbow Militia fill quite a bit of their role rather nicely and for less florins. City Guards were a priority in cities, Bowyer series in Palermo.

    In the south, I took over Tunis probably a few turns after the Moors took it. It was lightly defended, and considering my empire the Moors begged for ceasefire within a few turns. It didn't hurt that the Moors were undoubtedly too busy with Spain to deal with me. I took Algiers, a very well developed castle by this point (this is probably before turn 30 or 35) that could train Muslim Archers, and turned Tunis into a city. Algiers will serve as the strongpoint agaisnt any possible Moorish invasions, and once I've stabilized the area (maybe taken the castles in southern Iberia to use for unit factories), I'll turn it into a city and engage in some Mediterranean trade. My clergy is working feverishly to convert the population, and I have no doubt once Gregory dies, there will be a Sicilian in Rome to do whatever I say whenever I say it.

    Summary: The island settlements are a must. Durazzo isn't for me, but the more experienced could probably pull it off. Naval competence is key in the early game. Palermo is pretty much the only castle you'll need. Florence is a great help, attack it before Milan does. Buy Bologna. Pavise crossbow militia can substitute until Muslim archers come in. Keep those ports built. Never leave a settlement empty. Bring a lot of spies - all that you can afford. Your princess is an amazing diplomat. And use your incredible treasury and military strength to force the Moors to beg for peace.

    Have fun, I certainly will once I get those Norman Knights.

  29. #59
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sicily

    Go ahead and take the mission to grab Durazzo for the cash.

    THEN

    Give it to his holiness ("You truly have our....") and let him faff about with the Byzantines while you island-up for the economy.

    Don't wait too long to build up with the Sicilians. Your early-on dismounted foot knights are better than the other folks' dismounted feudals, so hammer away.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  30. #60

    Default Re: Sicily

    Update:
    Just took Milan and Venice. Milan had a full garrison and a full stack of units right outside the city, but for some reason had next to no Genoese crossbow militias in those armies. I used the bridges to destroy the outside stack, getting huge amounts of experience and releasing prisoners for chivalry. I know a lot of people say don't release prisoners because you'll have to fight them again, but as my economy was booming and I could easily replace/retrain all of my units, I decided to go for the extra chivalry, which I'll use to help get me a crusader knight's guild, maybe in Florence, so I can defend Northern Italy more easily.

    Venice was less garrisoned but tends to be more difficult to assault because of the large armies wandering its area. You should never attack Venice without being ready to take it that turn, otherwise a full stack 5< star general will trap you on the bridge connecting the island city to the mainland. It's not a bridge battle either, so you'll have to be prepared to lose a lot of units that you shouldn't have to lose.

    Once I took Venice, I was almost rolling in riches. My cities were beginning to upgrade to large cities, and Palermo upgraded to a citadel for Chivalrics. My island cities began to upgrade so I could finally get that trade triangle really going. The only thing was that Venice kept coming back for their city, and I almost lost it to a force of 3 catapults and 3-4 units of spear/italian militia because my garrison consisted of only 4 pavise crossbow militia and 1 spear militia. Thankfullly I managed to block their only breach into the city and once they routed, I used my 28 or so crossbowmen left to fire at the catapults from behind (they eventually ran out of ammo, but they would't leave until I shot at them).

    My northern Italian cities have upgraded to militia drill squares now, so I believe defending will be much easier with halberd militia. I plan to use them for offense as well - spear militia are very good and have lower upkeep, but the offensive uses of a long spear wall are lessons I remember very well from Rome: Total War.

    Guilds are coming in fast. Bologna I plan to use for an Assassin's guild because its position near both Rome (the papacy is undoubtedly mine for several turns yet, but just in case I need to remove him) and the training opportunities of Northern Italy. Venice and Genoa have gained a Merchant's Guild since they are the two provinces most heavily dependent on trade in the game. Milan now has a cathedral and a Theologian's guild, ensuring that I will all but dominate the College of Cardinals. It doesn't hurt that the Byzantine Empire is so near with its missionary opportunities. Florence, as I said, will gain a Crusader Knight's guild, and I might call a crusade on one of the Moorish cities (maybe Tripoli to add to the trade triangle). Palermo I plan to get a Horse Breeder's guild in, as it will provide most of my heavy cavalry. The same could go for Bern once the Papal ban on attacking Milan is lifted, or I could go for a swordsmith's guild instead. If I take Ragusa (i.e. If I decide to go after the Byzantines - probably after I recruit a sizable Pike-Crossbow-Heavy Cavalry force), I'll probably use it to go for a Mason's guild - I could use the bowyer series to get extra points for it before converting to a city, in the meantime using it as a base for conquering the Balkans. As for Naples, Tunis, and the islands, a merchant's guild is probably a safe bet. Tunis might also be a good spot for an alchemist's guild once it comes into play considering the central position of its port (Iraklion would be another nice spot).

    Have about 15 priests in Marrakesh right now - one turn got it from 0% to 46% Catholic. Massive Growing Faith bonuses.

    I'll keep you updated!

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