What i think will happen with modding M2TW

[alpaca]

The thing that worries me is that if they didn't release tools for RTW (we have Vercingetorix to thank for those), why should we believe that they will do so for M2?

Because at least an unpacker tool is already announced, they invited ER over before their release, and they seem to care at least a bit more for their consumers this time around.

[Lusted]

Only nine?!?!

Meant nine new factions, not just 9 faction slots.

[JoeyBritt]

I don't personally think the mod community will die, just become much less varied when it comes ot MTW II. The mods will have to focus on the same time period and use the same units, which will be a definate shame, but wont completely eradicate the modding market for the game. In any case, the differences from a modding p.o.v between Medieval II and Rome seem to be very few and hence I feel that most major mods will continue for the Rome engine, which is going to be a shame. I guess we all jsut have to wait and see

[naut]

Meant nine new factions, not just 9 faction slots.

Ok good.

[Apoc]

Because at least an unpacker tool is already announced, they invited ER over before their release, and they seem to care at least a bit more for their consumers this time around.

I still do not dare to get my hopes up. Without a way of editing models, skins, and animations, the unpacker will be virtually useless (as far as larger mods are concerned, at least).

[Bwian]

Realistically, without the opportunity to add new graphical content.... be that skins or models, then there isn't really a 'mod community' for MTW2 to worry about. There will be a few people tweaking preferences and re-balancing stats...but that is it.

That would be a HUGE backward step, and would mean that MTW2 would effectively become useless as a sandbox. I for one would rather mod for RTW and finish off some projects there than move onto a newer engine with no toolkit.

Mind you....why are we assuming that someone can't make a tool like Vercingetorix did for MTW2.....CA provided NONE of the tools we use for RTW...the community did it all. Why can't we do it again?

[econ21]

Realistically, without the opportunity to add new graphical content.... be that skins or models, then there isn't really a 'mod community' for MTW2 to worry about. There will be a few people tweaking preferences and re-balancing stats...but that is it.

I know what you are saying, and you are probably right, but isn't it a little bit ironic? The "hardcore" TW fans, among which I count myself, bitch and moan about the limitations of the AI and lack of realism of TW while conceding the graphics were pretty and state of the art. Later, when M2TW comes out and (worst case scenario) they find they can't change the graphics, they abandon modding the game at all.

With M2TW, we have better AI but (maybe) can't change the graphics. With RTW, we have inferior AI but can make even better eye candy. So the hardcore choose to stick to modding RTW. I'm not wanting personally criticise someone, but it seems almost hypocritical. To repeat - I am not criticising anyone: I guess it's human nature, we are preprogrammed to like eye candy, just like we are preprogrammed to have a sweet tooth.

Take EB and RTR. Those are two massive, major mods. I can't imagine the labour input that has gone into them - it must run into person-years of highly skilled labour. Did they start out because they wanted to make RTW graphics prettier? Surely not! Would I be less motivated to play them if they used RTW skins, but modded the maps, stats, starting situations etc as they have done? Not really. But I reluctantly agree with Lusted and Bwian - without the ability to edit the unit skins, I don't think we will see their like for M2TW.

Or take the Crusades mod. It looks utterly gorgeous, I agree. And I agree Caius would have not bothered doing it if he could not use it to showcase his amazing skinning ability. But the concept of such a mod focussed on a particular part of the world, covering particular conflicts, with just a couple of factions etc is still a good and worthwhile concept.

Maybe there is some consolation in this - maybe M2TW is good enough in the gameplay and the history not to make a spectacular major mod required? Rather like MTW (no offence to MTW modders).

And ironically, maybe it was the much derided "pretty" graphics of RTW that allowed the hardcore TW modding community to really take off and thrive.

[Lusted]

Well personally, with the news that diplomacy and ai will be moddable to some extent in M2TW, i think it would be silly for modders not to mod M2Tw, as it will allow for so many more possibilities. Hence why i think we will see more gameplay orientated mods which focus on improving and tweaking the diplomacy, ai, unit stats, the campaign etc.

[Lord Zimoa of Flanders]

I know what you are saying, and you are probably right, but isn't it a little bit ironic? The "hardcore" TW fans, among which I count myself, bitch and moan about the limitations of the AI and lack of realism of TW while conceding the graphics were pretty and state of the art. Later, when M2TW comes out and (worst case scenario) they find they can't change the graphics, they abandon modding the game at all.

Not ironic to me, if we cannot manipulate the meshes, textures and animations, we cannot port MTW2 to another timeframe, so in The Lordz case it will be the end of the NTW series.

For mods who stay in the spear, sword arrow period it will be less dramatic, we have to rebuild from scratch. So without those model importer/exporter and animation tool, we are dead in the water.

I think that is what Bwian is saying.


LZoF

[Apoc]

For mods who stay in the spear, sword arrow period it will be less dramatic, we have to rebuild from scratch. So without those model importer/exporter and animation tool, we are dead in the water.

Not really less dramatic - not much, anyway. A Rome mod - dead; ancient mod - dead; LotR mod - dead; any mods that require the ability to change models in some substantial way are going to be dead in the water.

[alpaca]

Or take Chivalry mod. It looks utterly gorgeous, I agree. And I agree Caius would have not bothered doing it if he could not use it to showcase his amazing skinning ability. But the concept of such a mod focussed on a particular part of the world, covering particular conflicts, with just a couple of factions etc is still a good and worthwhile concept.

I think you mean The Crusades.
Anyways, I'll be modding MTW2 because as a scripter I can already see it will allow me much more than RTW

[Lord Zimoa of Flanders]

Not really less dramatic - not much, anyway. A Rome mod - dead; ancient mod - dead; LotR mod - dead; any mods that require the ability to change models in some substantial way are going to be dead in the water.

A very sad and disheartning prospective, but the truth nevertheless unless they will release them in time.

[Bwian]

Lord Zimoa is exactly right about what I was saying.

The MTW modding field would be extremely limited if the only mods possible were medievel mods, using the stock units and buildings. You can re-balance....you can tweak stats....and then what?

For those of us who want to add new era's, build fantasy mods around our favourite fiction, or go into our own personal fantasy worlds....thats it.

Personally, I think there is an awful lot of pessimism, doom and general gloom that after a couple of weeks we don't have a full and functional toolkit to play with. People are commenting on how complex the models have become, and how you need more than one texture per model......that is NORMAL for most other games. The models and rigging is still far less complex than something like Unreal Tournament 2004.

The community cracked the code for RTW, and with the same determination and dedication, the same can be done. Quicker if CA help...but it's going to happen.

I'm building meshes ready for the day the Max plugin hit's the streets for MTW2.

[alpaca]

I still do not dare to get my hopes up. Without a way of editing models, skins, and animations, the unpacker will be virtually useless (as far as larger mods are concerned, at least).

I don't agree there. You can still work a lot on gameplay-enhancing, and I think the skins won't be such a tough nut to crack when compared to the models.
Don't forget that Vercingetorix also released his tools only a few months after the release, so if we get something within, say, half a year, that's perfectly all right. If we don't get anything... Well then, can't help it really.

[Apoc]

I don't agree there. You can still work a lot on gameplay-enhancing, and I think the skins won't be such a tough nut to crack when compared to the models.
Don't forget that Vercingetorix also released his tools only a few months after the release, so if we get something within, say, half a year, that's perfectly all right. If we don't get anything... Well then, can't help it really.

You don't agree that the unpacker will be virtually useless for modders working on larger mods, without a way to edit models and animations? We may see a lot of smaller mods focusing on the medieval era, but that will be it. And I wouldn't say that it is 'perfectly alright' to get those tools after half a year - if we get them then, then we'll get them then, but it won't be 'alright'.

Now, I'm looking at this from a "Middle-earth modder's" point of view, and as things are now, they are pretty disconcerting. But, of course, I may be overly critical, but what I'm talking about is the 'worst case scenario' - if CA releases tools within a few months, I will be the first to sing to their praise.

Mind you....why are we assuming that someone can't make a tool like Vercingetorix did for MTW2.....CA provided NONE of the tools we use for RTW...the community did it all. Why can't we do it again?

That's what we'll have to hope for, I think (or fear) - though CA has said that the way models are done now is more complicated.

[alpaca]

You don't agree that the unpacker will be virtually useless for modders working on larger mods, without a way to edit models and animations? We may see a lot of smaller mods focusing on the medieval era, but that will be it. And I wouldn't say that it is 'perfectly alright' to get those tools after half a year - if we get them then, then we'll get them then, but it won't be 'alright'.

You said the unpacker would be virtually useless, not virtually useless for complete conversion ;) That, I can agree to.
And I can wait a few months for modding tools. I don't really expect a company to work on modding tools before being finished with the game (although some companies do it, and it's of course better for the community, and maybe the game's selling rates). The Civ4 SDK was also released a few months after the game, before that, you couldn't most mod things (well you could rebalance and make new maps but you couldn't add really new features).
I don't think we can demand anything from CA, what tools they give us is completely their and SEGA's decision, and I for my part will be happy if we get something after half a year instead of getting nothing at all, like with R:TW.

[Apoc]

I said useless (as far as larger mods are concerned, at least). ;)

And I agree we cannot demand anything from CA - but we can, and should, loudly voice our opinion on how we think things should be. Modding tools would be great for the modding community - but, perhaps more importantly, it would be great for CA, the Total War-series, and the larger TW community, as well.

[Bwian]

I would think that a plugin for Max to allow models to be imported and exported, plus a converter for the texture files so they could be edited are the minimums.

Even better would be something to allow reliable modification of animations as well!

Without those, no major mods can be done.