What i think will happen with modding M2TW

[Ozzfest20]

If there was actually competition for this type of game, CA should be worried about others stealing the engine, but mods keep games alive, so they should give us the ability to skin... and model.

[Caliban]

Hi everyone,

I have been lurking around in the background for a while, thought I would talk about some of the issues raised here.

The model exporter is most definatley the key to creating true total conversions and it is something we are looking into.
The main issue with releasing the model exporter is that it utilizes 3rd party technology (a format we purchsed) that we arn't allowed to re-distribute. This doesn't mean we are holding it back. It just means that it may take longer than we would like before we develop a solution.

We know how much value the modding community is and I totally agree that your mods increase the shelf-life of our games; This has been demonstrated everywhere through-out the pc industry. There is some great talent out there and we want to help nurture that as much as we can.

The unpacker is on its way now and I just sent Epistolary Richard a bunch of descr files alot of you might want to check out in the meantime.

Cheers,

Caliban

[Re Berengario I]

The model exporter is most definatley the key to creating true total conversions and it is something we are looking into.
The main issue with releasing the model exporter is that it utilizes 3rd party technology (a format we purchsed) that we arn't allowed to re-distribute.

Granny, as in NWN2, and we modders have the same problems. There it seems Obsidian is studying the way to keep the "grannyfied" animations fixed as supermodels and give modders the chance to link their meshes to them.

So actually the problem more in deep is not having new "models" but new animations because Granny is a standalone library like Speedtree and cannot be changed or distribuited.

[Lusted]

Oh Caliban is a CA dev for those who don't know.

[Throumbaris]

Good news that you guys are looking for ways to make an exporter possibly, even better news that we are getting the descr files soon.
But i have to disagree about the fact that it would take more time to create mods this way. If you notice units have a global scale that is applied to the whole culture. There is a basic torso from unarmoured to advanced plate, the same with arms, legs and heads. All the units are just a mix and match. You wont have to make 5 variations on all 150+ units but make variations on different armour levels and some other uniques like those spanish fluffy clothes. Im personally looking forward to mixing some bodyparts to add new units instead of messing around in 3ds max.

[Comrade Alexeo]

Am I the only one here who thinks that CA saying modding for M2TW will be more difficult than for RTW isn't because of inability to modify models - CA says it's looking into it, and I for one trust them to deliver - but rather the sheer number of models that a mod will require?

And skins too. Think about it. I saw somewhere that each unit has 3 torsos, 3-5 heads, 3-4 shields, and 2-3 legs/arms, or something to that effect; this allows the awesome variability within M2TW units, because when you do the math there's something like 1,000-plus possible variations.

That's fine and dandy for CA, which has the resources to have a zillion modelers and skinners. But the average mod doesn't have very many skinners or modelers at all.

I've made skins and models, and I know how time-consuming they can both be - and I'm not even very good at either task; really good ones must take forever. Now consider that you need to create at least 8 "skins" for an individual unit (2 each for head, shield, limbs, torso) with enough variations so as to justify making them in the first place - AND you either need at least 2 models for each unit (say, one with a hat/helmet, and one without), or you need one model and then rely on alphaing out the hat/helmet, which is horrid for performance.

Make no mistakes, boys and girls - M2TW modding, if it can happen, will be a slog.

[Throumbaris]

Read my post above, each unit doesnt have all those variations, in fact england has basically one unit with 2-3 different types of helmets for example feudal knights and a different torso for billmen. Modding will not take longer.

[Thorn Is]

Hi everyone,

The model exporter is most definatley the key to creating true total conversions and it is something we are looking into.
The main issue with releasing the model exporter is that it utilizes 3rd party technology (a format we purchsed) that we arn't allowed to re-distribute. This doesn't mean we are holding it back. It just means that it may take longer than we would like before we develop a solution.

Caliban

so its more a legal issue then anything
its ok with me
ive decided to use the time to start going over different ideas and doing all my planning

that and my portugese army is bogged down fighing the English in France, my navy depleated from a fruitless war against the moors and now im surrounded by 3 stacks of english

[SigniferOne]

If Granny is indeed the format that CA had chosen, then this is potentially very good news. Here's a blurb from the Granny 3d website FAQ:

How did you make the animations of the Swingin' Soldier pointing and saluting blend in without affecting the rest of the animation?

When you export a file with the Granny exporters, you can mark which bones you do and do not want included in the animation. However, you can also apply a thing called a track mask during playback which will mask out parts of an existing animation that you do not want applied. Either way will work.

(Emphasis mine)

Those of you who know about animations will be completely floored by this idea. You could make a walking animation that only applies to legs, and then fighting or resting or cheering or tired or happy animations for the torso and arms, and combine those two sets (leg anims, and torso+arm anims) together for some very impressive results! Only SIX animations have to be done. Previously (now) you have to create TEN, and every time you will make changes to walking animation, you have to change it in ALL of the files. I truly hope CA used Granny, and that the legal issues can be resolved, so that we can get our greedy hands on this goodness now :P

[Re Berengario I]

If Granny is indeed the format that CA had chosen, then this is potentially very good news.

granny2.dll is in the root dir of the game

Still, not to cool down the expectations but to be realistic, every game which used granny animation libraries till now had some huge problems in modding models because of the copyright issues (i pointed out NWN2, another love of mine, because we're stuck there with just placeable meshes modding, same situation).

[Lusted]

Ah, the joys of knowing stuff the rest of the community ill not find out about til later(at least what i know relates to the models, and CA having to deal with 3rd party things, might be realted to this granny thing.).

[SigniferOne]

Lusted, you earned some good will before, don't waste it! :P

[Caliban]

granny2.dll is in the root dir of the game

Granny has been used as an intermediate mesh format from 3dsmax. Basically models are exported from 3dsmax7 into the granny (mesh) format and then built to the .mesh format which the game engine uses to render.
The .CAS format is still being used for animation with units and siege weapons. The .CAS model format is also still being utilized for the strategy map models.

[SigniferOne]

The .CAS format is still being used for animation with units and siege weapons. The .CAS model format is also still being utilized for the strategy map models.

Then what's the problem with releasing the tools to edit CAS files?