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Thread: How to get the Irish to expand?

  1. #1

    Smile How to get the Irish to expand?

    Hello -

    I'm playing the Irish in XL and they are a lot of fun with some unique units and with limited cavalry require a change in my usual strategies.

    Anyway, I have never seen them expand off their island when controlled by the AI. Has anyone else ever seen it happen? Also, does anyone have any ideas on how to get the AI Irish to expand? Maybe give them a ship or 2 to start with?

    Being 1/2 Irish I would love to see the AI Irish dominating Europe, or at least invading England!

  2. #2

    Default Re: How to get the Irish to expand?

    Just checked to see its your first post-Welcome,Faramir!

    Good that the Irish get a fair showing in XL-I ll be switching to it soon hopefully, if I can just win on Hard setting. I m playing the Irish in VI, attracted by the javelins.

    Im particularly interested in the bonnachts.
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  3. #3
    Camel Lord Senior Member Capture The Flag Champion Martok's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to get the Irish to expand?

    Welcome to the Org, Faramir!

    Unfortunately, I have never once seen the Irish expand in all the months that I've had XL. I suspect they're doubly-hampered in their ability to conquer: Not only are they an island, but they're also hemmed in by the English and the Scots.

    I think you may be right in having the Irish start with a ship or two in the water right away. I know that playing as the Sicilians (who are one of the only other island factions), it really helps that they start with a couple of galleys in the water around their territory. I believe the Irish could similarly benefit, as this would allow them to immediately invade Britain and give them the edge they need.
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  4. #4
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to get the Irish to expand?

    Yes. But remember, they're Irish! Giving them a longboat to start with should help them.


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  5. #5
    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to get the Irish to expand?

    I'm on about my fourth XL campaign now, and the Irish always, but always, just sit on their island waiting for you to invade them... I've not tried giving them a boat, but sounds like it might be worth a try Or maybe increase the income a bit, cos they tend to look a bit cash-strapped, too.

    And welcome to the org, Faramir
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  6. #6

    Default Re: How to get the Irish to expand?

    Quote Originally Posted by macsen rufus
    I'm on about my fourth XL campaign now, and the Irish always, but always, just sit on their island waiting for you to invade them... I've not tried giving them a boat, but sounds like it might be worth a try Or maybe increase the income a bit, cos they tend to look a bit cash-strapped, too.

    And welcome to the org, Faramir
    I think if we put any faction on an island (or indeed in any single province situation) without a huge supply of "invasion force" units, and some fleets to guarantee they can leave, the same would occur. The Hospitallers are often the same. I've noticed that they sometimes go for Nicaea and often fail, or just sit there and go into the red. As a rule with Island factions, they simply need more ships, otherwise they'll be stuck there. It's a pity that reemerging factions can't sometimes reemerge with ships also...

    I've an Irish campaign going at the moment, and am occupying the former English lands, except Aquitaine, as well as Scotland and Wales. Basically I began by training Fianna Eireann and Gael Gaedhils backed up with some Irish Horsemen and Bonnachts and went straight for Northumbria. Why did he go for Northumbria you ask? Well That seems to be their best trading province and is also the border with Scotland. My presence there prevents either power from expanding into the other's territory and provides me with some useful trade income, denying it to the English. Next up Wales revolted form the English, so I moved in there, followed by quick invasions of Mercia and Wessex. After this I secured the British Isles by Conquering Scotland while sinking all of the English shipping in the channel. The next stage was to hit Normandy which proved to be far more difficult than I had anticipated and my men were sent packing by a 7 star general's army of Fyrdmen and Royal Knights. The second attempt proved much more successful due to my taking along some more of my own spears, which I had lacked on the previous attempt. Utilising the Gael Gaedhils as flankers I managed to secure Normandy from the enemy, but was driven out again the following year! A counter attack featuring all of the usual suspects retook the province and wiped out the faction. The following year we moved into Anjou and that's how it stands now. The French have refused alliance so far, and I'm rather wary of them, though if the do attack I may turn my attentions to Scandinavia and leave France to the French.
    Last edited by caravel; 11-14-2006 at 17:58.

  7. #7
    Kavhan Member Kavhan Isbul's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to get the Irish to expand?

    I think that if you go into the startmap files you will see that the Irish are Catholic Isolationist. I am not sure how much this affects their chances of expansion, but I have never see them try and only once I saw them building a single sheep. When controlled by the AI their usual role is to get the English or sometime the Danes excommunicated (same as Scotland's role). I have also noticed that the irish rarely accept an alliance proposal, even when you offer them a princess and they have 5 unmarried heirs.

  8. #8

    Default Re: How to get the Irish to expand?

    I'm not sure to what extent the AI types affect the different factions, apart from what they build and train. For example the Byzantine are 'orthodox_stagnant' which would lead one to believe that they are a passive faction that does not do much to improve it's ecomony orstanding in the world, yet experience tells us otherwise. The English are down as 'catholic_crusader_trader' (from memory, apologies for any errors) yet I've found that they crusade less than the HRE, the French and the Spanish. They also trade poorly to start with. This may be down to (bad)luck. The English are thrown into conflict with the French from day one, so they may not have much opportunity for trading and crusading. The only AI that really makes much difference is the 'barbarian_raider' (Mongols). They don't seem to build alot, which is why I think the AI types are limited to building and trading, and nothing else. One could say that the KGH are much more aggressive, though that can be attributed to them emerging into one or two provinces with a massive force. Any AI faction would be highly aggressive under those circumstances, as it's been proven that the AI attacks alot if it has alot of units at it's disposal, and it's stacks outnumber the enemy's across the border by a large proportion.

  9. #9

    Default Re: How to get the Irish to expand?

    Im thinking about putting land bridges to all the islands to fix this. The AI handles ships terribly so any factions that get confined to an island tend to stay there and build troops instead of ships (except Sicily for some reason)

    I'd like to see the AI create an Irish or Hospitler empire every now and then!

  10. #10

    Default Re: How to get the Irish to expand?

    Quote Originally Posted by satchef1
    Im thinking about putting land bridges to all the islands to fix this. The AI handles ships terribly so any factions that get confined to an island tend to stay there and build troops instead of ships (except Sicily for some reason)

    I'd like to see the AI create an Irish or Hospitler empire every now and then!
    I had often thought about landbridges between between the following provinces in addition to those already in Vanilla MTW/VI:

    Greece/Crete
    Sicily/Malta
    Scotland/Ireland
    Nicaea/Rhodes

    Personally I think that Third spearman from the left has it right in this thread https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...t=69416&page=2 and that some of the sea zones need to be removed to make it easier for the AI to cope. A few mods have done this already so it's not unheard of. Linking the islands to the mainland would remove their tactical importance. The English channel for example was always a natural defense for England, the landbridge present in vanilla MTW/VI negates this entirely, yet Ireland is still a true Island. Ridiculous that the French can cross to England without fleets, yet the English need fleets to invade Ireland. This is why I, personally cut all landbridges except the one between Sweden and Denmark, and create a new one between Sweden and Finland.

  11. #11
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to get the Irish to expand?

    I guess I've been reading the Fish & Chips thread a wee bit too much, but my first reaction to the thread title was "Just keep feeding them Guiness and kebabs, and they'll expand plenty"

    One thing the Irish in XL have going for them is how cheap all their unit upkeeps are. I usually grab Wales, then try to put together enough boats to get to Lithuania. Yeah, historically inaccurate, but nice cash, ka-ching...
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  12. #12

    Default Re: How to get the Irish to expand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kavhan Isbul
    I think that if you go into the startmap files you will see that the Irish are Catholic Isolationist. I am not sure how much this affects their chances of expansion, but I have never see them try and only once I saw them building a single sheep. When controlled by the AI their usual role is to get the English or sometime the Danes excommunicated (same as Scotland's role). I have also noticed that the irish rarely accept an alliance proposal, even when you offer them a princess and they have 5 unmarried heirs.
    In my current campaingn they asked for an alliance after 5 turns and when I offered took my princess that was 1 turn away from spinster. Maybe they like the ugly hosefaced ones with a moustache? I playing Byz/Early/Normal



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    Last edited by BrSpiritus; 11-15-2006 at 21:59.

  13. #13
    Camel Lord Senior Member Capture The Flag Champion Martok's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to get the Irish to expand?

    @Don Corleone:

    You deliberately go for Lithiuania early on? Odd; I didn't realize you were the type who enjoys constant uprisings.

    @BrSpiritus: The Irish actually asked for an alliance? Wow; that's got to be the first time I've even heard of that happening. In my XL games, they always tell me to buzz off (to put it politely )!
    "MTW is not a game, it's a way of life." -- drone

  14. #14

    Default Re: How to get the Irish to expand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caravel
    Scotland/Ireland
    Nicaea/Rhodes
    Ireland/Wales makes more sense to me. That way Ireland can invade there quickly, giving them 2 provences. It won't make much difference to High or Late either because the English hold both Wales and Ireland

    Nicaea/Rhodes is the only other one i'm putting in. It will stop the Byz getting trapped there in Early/High and aid the Hospitlers in Late.

    Think im going to add these land bridges to XL.
    Last edited by satchef1; 11-16-2006 at 01:56.

  15. #15

    Default Re: How to get the Irish to expand?

    Quote Originally Posted by satchef1
    Ireland/Wales makes more sense to me. That way Ireland can invade there quickly, giving them 2 provences. It won't make much difference to High or Late either because the English hold both Wales and Ireland
    Either would be fine, or both as I did once. The crossing point between Ulster and Scotland is shorter though.

    Quote Originally Posted by satchef1
    Nicaea/Rhodes is the only other one i'm putting in. It will stop the Byz getting trapped there in Early/High and aid the Hospitlers in Late.

    Think im going to add these land bridges to XL.
    Nicaea/Rhodes is sensible, though The Byzantines can still get trapped in Cyprus or Crete, and the Sicilians can get stuck in Malta.

    A faction becoming isolated in the British Isles is not so much of a problem as that faction can expand within those provinces and rescue their economy, so the Flanders/Wessex one should remain cut IMHO (especially with Ireland linked up to Wales or Scotland).

  16. #16
    Friend of Lady Luck Member Mooks's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to get the Irish to expand?

    There anyway to mod the coding so that the AI uses ships wisely?
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  17. #17
    Necro Lenin Member Koval's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to get the Irish to expand?

    I once managed to have quite a successful campaign as the Irish on Hard difficulty (mind you i was using the BKB Super Mod). Initially i took Iceland and Scotland, and then, after assuring naval superiority in the region, moved on to take over Scandinavia and then the Novgorodians, most of Russia soon falling into the hands of the Irish. Eventually, I managed to claim a significant chunk of the British Isles after the English were excommunicated. Mainly, i took my time and preferably tried to spring at rebel provinces that sprung up, especially early on. I think i still have the save file, i might play it later.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: How to get the Irish to expand?

    Quote Originally Posted by holybandit
    There anyway to mod the coding so that the AI uses ships wisely?
    Not as far as I know. That is hardcoded along with the rest of the AI. You could make fleets cheaper and faster to build so that the AI can produce more fleets more easily. Also the crusader_units_prod11.txt could be edited to encourage the AI to build more ships. That's it though. As far as behaviour is concerned there's not much you can do. The AI will still send it's few ships to the opposite side of the map instead of protecting it's coasts or building trade routes.

  19. #19

    Default Re: How to get the Irish to expand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Martok
    @Don Corleone:

    You deliberately go for Lithiuania early on? Odd; I didn't realize you were the type who enjoys constant uprisings.

    @BrSpiritus: The Irish actually asked for an alliance? Wow; that's got to be the first time I've even heard of that happening. In my XL games, they always tell me to buzz off (to put it politely )!

    yeah it was funny, had never seen that before myself, but then this is my first campaign with an Orthodox country. Maybe the Irish just hate the other catholics?

    BrS

  20. #20
    Camel Lord Senior Member Capture The Flag Champion Martok's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to get the Irish to expand?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrSpiritus
    yeah it was funny, had never seen that before myself, but then this is my first campaign with an Orthodox country. Maybe the Irish just hate the other catholics?

    BrS
    Could be. It's hard for me to say myself--whenever I've played the Byz in XL, the Irish are often gone (usually conquered by the English) by the time I ever get an emissary over to Dublin. It's as good an explanation as any, though!
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  21. #21
    Member Member eggplantman's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to get the Irish to expand?

    does anyone else think the irish and the vikings have the best starting place

  22. #22

    Default Re: How to get the Irish to expand?

    Hi, this is my first post.

    I only see the Irish expans once in more than 6 months playing XL. I was playing with the portuguese IIRC and they were my allies. I owned the iberian peninsula, north africa and the holy land. the Irish not only conquered all the Britain Islands but they also moved to continental Europe from the Pyrinees to Poland.

    Unfortunetely, they backstabbed me looking for the sun of the spanish beaches and I had to take care of them

  23. #23

    Default Re: How to get the Irish to expand?

    ---
    Last edited by PershsNhpios; 02-20-2010 at 09:34.

  24. #24

    Default Re: How to get the Irish to expand?

    I know that playing as the Sicilians (who are one of the only other island factions), it really helps that they start with a couple of galleys in the water around their territory.

  25. #25

  26. #26
    Member Member nzd07's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to get the Irish to expand?

    Once, when I was playing as the english in XL I moved a large army of british north militia out of northumbria to aid my forces in france, leaving a few archers and feudal swordsmen in my castle to keep the scots at bay. To my surprise, it turns out the irish actually bribed my small army and took northumbria. Then, when i took it back, the scots invaded me after realizing how weak my forces were in england. My empire soon collapsed because the scots had built up a huge army. I pulled my king and his army out of brittany to defend mercia from the scots, but then the stupid french overwhelmed me and took all of my french provinces, which led to my quit.

    Always remember that the smaller nations can be the ones to screw u over
    Last edited by nzd07; 12-05-2009 at 21:07.



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  27. #27

    Default Re: How to get the Irish to expand?

    I'm in the camp that says: No straight islands!

    There's the historical-accuracy-argument going on, as well as a minor gameplay argument.

    1. Historical accuracy -wise, it's obvious; the English Channel for example, and how it has protected them against a lot of bad things, from Armada to Napoleon.

    2. Gameplay. Not as much turtling. And re-emerging factions get back in the mix.

    Regarding 1, I feel that AI fleet management and naval combat is too random to properly reflect the power relations that you assign intuitively. In this particular case, a nice solution would be to make the land bridge a one way into Flanders. This would let the English get some time and space away from the French.

    Also, I don't like the H-A argument to go too far. There's a point where H-A just smothers gameplay - something that inevitably guides every debate on improvements/changes/modifications. For me, it's OK to limit the landbridges to go from island to mainland/larger island. The small factions will be safe for a while (H-A) but able to, in theory, invade and grow somewhat (Gameplay).

    Regarding 2, I've mentioned the benefits in the above about one way bridges. The fact that re-emergants will get back and be relevant speaks for itself. Ultimately, I want more action and these one way bridges supply that. If H-A suffers - so be it. It doesn't suffer to the point that it affects gameplay negatively. Quite the contrary in this instance, actually.

    Was it you, Macsen, who first talked about this long ago?

  28. #28

    Default Re: How to get the Irish to expand?

    I partially (mostly in fact) agree with bondovic, I would add however that one way land bridges are still a problem for the AI. Taking the proposed one way Wessex/Flanders bridge for example. There is the potential for the AI's main army or King to invade Flanders and get stuck there with no escape back to the mainland if the battle is lost. It also means that the king loses connectivity with the homeland which may rebel.

    Personally I think the default setup of the Wessex/Flanders land bridge is both ok and required. Provinces such as Ireland, Corsica, Malta, Crete, Rhodes and Cyprus also need connecting to the mainland to get rid of the useless islands and make the game more interesting.

  29. #29
    Thread Necromancer Member Vantek's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to get the Irish to expand?

    Not saying it would necessarily be a bad thing, but that would squelch the importance of naval affairs.
    Last edited by Vantek; 12-07-2009 at 17:32.

  30. #30

    Default Re: How to get the Irish to expand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Asai Nagamasa View Post
    Taking the proposed one way Wessex/Flanders bridge for example. There is the potential for the AI's main army or King to invade Flanders and get stuck there with no escape back to the mainland if the battle is lost. It also means that the king loses connectivity with the homeland which may rebel.
    Conceded. Ireland bridge is less of a problem in vanilla, of course. But all the other islands should have two way bridges.

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