Research on battle map - post test results here

[BigTex]

IMHO, this doesn't make sense. Infantry in good formation historically was able to withstand cav charges fairly easily and with little damage. As long as the infantry's discipline held, and their ranks stayed tight while presenting the horses with a mass of long pointy things, the cav would bounce off or break up and go around them, from Hastings to Waterloo. So you'd think a unit of spearmen in good formation, with a frontage at least equal to the cav's, would be in good shape. But your results show this is the worst possible option. Hmmmm.....

OK, you can make the case that the cav in this situation has a greater reach due to its lances being longer than the spears. Also, cheap spearmen's light shields ain't much good against anything, anyway, especially not a lance with cav momentum behind it. So maybe cheap spearmen are just doomed from the start. But what about other situations, such as better infantry defense and/or longer reach?

Is there any unit in M2TW that can form a shield wall formation like in BI? If so, does a shield wall help the infantry withstand a charge better, even if the infantrymen have swords/axes instead of spears?

And what about pikes? Do pikes (even unarmored) do a better job against cav than spears?

And finally, does cav treat melee infantry differently than missle infantry? I've heard that missile infantry won't stop charging cav--the cav just runs through them. Is that true?

A shieldwall will stop anything dead in it's tracks. With the shield wall you have each man being supported by 2 others from behind. So the impact of the charge is spread to 15+ people, cavalry can't push that amount of weight out of the way. The lance may go through a cheap but the charge would still be stoped cold and more then likely ridders would have been tossed into the shieldwall formation from inertia.

But sadly there are no units in the game capable of forming a shield wall. Cheap spearmen are just there to absorb a charge if that's all you have. They will be massacred by any heavy cav charge. Now if you happen to have those cheap spearmen in thin ranks, 4 or lower deep, they will be completely destroyed in a charge and the following seconds. That is part of the reason cavalry just murder the missile troops, their in such thin ranks.

But also in the game the cavalry are very weak. Once their stoped they will be murdered by even peasants.

Later infantry can decimate heavy cavalry though. Any pike unit thats braced and is charge will skewer 50%+ of the heavy cavalry in a few seconds of a charge. Halberdiers that brace will have the same results. Across the board even militia late units that can brace will decimate cavalry as long as their formations are unbroken.

The new charges in this game are interesting. But keep in mind anyone reading this who likes the english, the billmen are buged against cavalry and arent a good judge of heavy infantry resisting a charge. It has truly added more depth and danger to battles.

[Fookison]

After reading all the diagnostics done by the various members, I am concluding that the patch is necessary and that even if we all adapt to the various methods, the results are random and cannot be trusted in each situation. Bring on the patch.......

[grinningman]

I did some more testing using the Danish Obudshaer (these are armour-piercing, can form a spear wall and have 'very longs spears') vs Mailed Knights.

I didn't record any numbers this time, but the Obudshaer do a lot better against the knights. It's hard to make any definite conclusions because it was difficult to make the AI knights charge. It looks like a spear wall is best for receiving a charge (it didn't seem to matter whether guard mode was on or not). Once in combat, they seem just as effective with or without the shield wall set. Again it looked like guard mode should be avoided, as fewer infantry participate in combat when it's set.

I can also confirm what other people have said - there is definitely a bug with Dismounted English footknights. Once they are in combat, the only guy who kills anything is the captain, who has a different model (an armoured guy holding a sword) to the rest of the unit. So it does look like there is something wrong with the English footknight model animation which means that they never hit anything in combat. (Note they still kill the enemy during a charge).

I think I'll wait until after the patch to do any more testing.

[RomoR]

I'm glad someone else made some tests on Cavalry charges. I was Starting to think that Amazon had sent me a different version of the game .
because no body else seems to be getting the same results has me, or didn't really care.

I can see that the results above confirm with my results.
The crazier loose formations, (try 2 line loose, its better than 4 line) and marching ones actually are more benificial against a CAvalry charge than the more popular tight deep ranked formations.

I have made these test with 5 different spear units (not pikes, those seem to work) ranging from very weak to very good and all seem to indicate that loose is a better option.

Has stated earlier I just started playing most battle in loose formation for this, but it really takes away from game immersion since everything that history tells us seems contrary this.

On a similar note my Dismounted Portuguese knights also seem rather pants for there stats, all my units get better kills than them, AND I mostly use these guys has flankers!!!

[RomoR]

I will like to mention that the only reason I started making more serious tests arose after a custom 1-1 unit test of merchant cavalry 380 gold( cant get much lighter than that I think) against some good muslim spear unit (590-or 560 gold lamasomething) and in ALL 6 tests (normal deep ranks and schiltrom) it lost.

Now why is a less cost efficient unit wining against an "anti-cavalry" unit thats much more expensive??!!

Why should I Ever choose a spear unit over a cavalry unit if its cheaper and does a better job in battle? (excluding sieges and bridge battles)

[grinningman]

Maybe it's a good thing that it's so difficult to pull off a cavalry charge, otherwise everyone would be complaining about how broken they are

It seems that the only units that won't take heavy casualties from a knight charge are ones that 'can form a spear wall' - usually pike, voulge or halberd units. Some factions don't have access to any of those units (like the Moors, my favourite from MTW, the English and the Russians), so it will be trickier for them to deal with cavalry.

It would be nice if standard spearmen could stand up to a frontal cavalry charge a bit better. It would also be nice if the standard spearmen formation (tight with ~4 ranks) wasn't the worst formation for taking a cavalry charge.

[Bullethead]

Well, I've finally got M2TW so can test some of this myself....

Test
Me: 1 unit of Spanish Spear Militia:

• 76 men including general
• cannot form spear wall
• can form schiltrom
• has "bonus vs. cav".

vs.

AI: 1 unit of English Hobilars: 41 men including general

Using the flat grass map. Units appear directly facing each other.

AI hobilars always moved toward spears to attack them. Their procedure was to walk until about 100 yards away, then trot until about 50 yards away, and finally gallop the remaining distance. Apparently the AI uses the single right-click to charge :). After charging, the hobilars would stay in melee until they'd taken about 50% losses, at which point they'd withdraw about 100 yards, reform, and charge again.

I did various things with the spearmen:

1. Spears stand to receive charge in default starting formation.
On contact, the spears lose about 50% of their numbers and the hobilars about 25%. In the ensuing melee, the spears usually take minor losses and take out another 25% of the hobilars, which then rout.

2. Spears moving with flank to oncoming charge
The charge instantly destroys the spears, hobilars take minimal losses

3. Spears walking forward toward charge
This was caused by a single right-click on the hobilars, hoping the spears would charge the oncoming cav. Didn't work--they kept on walking. On contact, the spears lose about 50%, hobilars take no damage. In the melee, both sides take about equal numbers of losses until both are about 25% remaining. Eventually, the hobilars usually will withdraw, reform, and charge again, finishing off the spears, but very few hobilars will survive.

4. Spears charge the charging cav
The spears usually take about 75-80% losses on contact and route instantly, doing very little damage to the hobilars (about 10%).

5. Spears receive charge in shiltrom formation
Spears lose about 50% on contact, hobilars lose about 10%. The melee lasts until the hobilars are down to 50% left, by which time there are about 25% spearmen left. Then the hobilars withdraw, both sides reform, and the hobilars charge again, wiping out the spearmen with little or no loss.

6. Spears in 2-rank loose formation
The hobilars advance at a walk as usual toward the center of the spear line. However, when they get to the distance at which they usually start to trot, they instead come to a complete stop and stand there in a disordered blob for about 15 seconds. Then the hobilars reform into a square formation facing the spears at 100 yards range, and stand there forever without charging. So I eventually charged them with the spears, still in the loose 2-rank formation. The spears closed in to envelop the hobilars on both flanks, who just kept standing there while the spears moved in. In both the charge and the ensuing melee, a few more spearmen died than hobilars, but this meant that the hobilars were down to about 50% while the spearmen were still at 66%. The hobilars withdrew and both sides reformed, but the hobilars did so quicker and returned while the spearmen were still milling around. The spearmen were in 2 main blobs separated by the heap of corpses, and the hobilars ran mostly into the gap between them. Again, numerical losses were about equal, resulting in the hobilars routing when they reached 25% remaining, while the spearmen still had 50% remaining.

Observations

1. It seems much better for spearmen to be standing still than moving when the cav hits. That's realistic

2. The shiltrom, supposedly a special anti-cav formation, is actually worse for the spearmen than remaining in their default formation

3. Putting spearmen in a 2-rank loose formation makes them completely proof against charges by hobilars because the cav just stops instead of charging. Once stopped, the spears can charge and see off the cav with the lightest losses of any situation. This is a bug