Research on battle map - post test results here

[Bullethead]

I did a few more tests with spearmen. This time I faced off French and Spanish spear militias with identical stats across the board--the only apparent difference was the color of their tunics. But just to be safe, I switched roles between the 2 sides; this made no difference in the outcomes. The results are pretty interesting...

1. Charging vs. Stationary
This test consisted of one unit standing still and the other charging it directly from the front, with both in their default formations. The very interesting thing about this test is that the stationary unit ALWAYS won, by a fairly substantial margin. Usually, the losing unit routed with about 25% troops remaining, and the victor had about 35-45% remaining. This was caused by the attackers taking significantly more casualties on the initial impact than the defenders and thus having a head start on reaching rout-level casualties, because casuaties in the ensuing melee were about equal.

This raises the question, what happened to the charge bonus? You'd think that on impact, with defense ratings being the same, the charging unit would do more damage thanks to a higher effective attack rating. But in fact the opposite occurs, although there's nothing that says the defenders get a bonus.

I'm beginning to think that, at least for spearmen, the "charge bonus" is somehow used against itself due to a bug. Maybe the "bonus vs. cavalry", too. Perhaps they're actually added to the defender's attack rating instead of the attacker's. But whatever the problem is, it's consistent across spearmen attacking ANYTHING, both in tests and in battles. If you want to destroy a spear unit, have it charge something, even the rear of an occupied unit, especially cavalry. Many spearmen drop dead on contact, even when they should have the advantage.

But maybe this is just me. Before we add this to the bug list, maybe one of you all will test this yourself :).

The Uselessness of the Schiltrom Formation
All I can say is, NEVER use this formation under ANY circumstances. The results are ALWAYS worse for the spearmen, whatever they're fighting, than if they'd been in their default formation (not to mention loose formation).

In this test, I had 1 unit of spearmen in the schiltrom formation and the other charged in its default formation. In contrast to the results above, in this case, the attacker ALWAYS won. Handily. The attackers would take very little damage on impact compared to charging a default formation, and would then just butcher the defenders. The exchange rate was usually around 2:1 or more in favor of the attackers in the ensuing melee. In addition, the defenders would stay and fight until down to just 2 or 3 men before routing, leaving about 50% of the victorious attackers. But this all happened very quickly, so that it takes less time for the schiltrom to be totally wiped out than it does for defenders in default formation to see off their attackers.

This result matches up with my test in the previous post where cav had much less trouble with the schiltrom than with the default formation of spears. I'm therefore convinced that this is a bug. The schiltrom formation, supposedly a special thing for enhancing defence, instead assures the quick destruction of the unit while inflicting fewer casualties on the attacker. But again, I'd like somebody else to duplicate my findings before adding this to the bug list.

From watching the combat up close, I think I know what the problem is. The spearmen in the schiltrom just stand there facing outboard, only attack enemies directly in front of them, and those on the inside don't move forward to fill gaps in the outer ring. The attacking unit is usually bunched on around 1/2 of the schiltrom circle, and the defenders on the far side don't move to help the engaged side. Because the attackers in contact with the defenders form a arc with a larger radius, there can be more attackers engaged than defenders, so more defenders die. When defenders die, gaps open in their outer layer, into which attackers move, further increasing their superiority in numbers engaged, plus hitting some defenders in the flank now. Once the attackers have eaten away their side of the schiltrom, they start hitting the other side's defenders in the back. Of these, only a few turn around to fight, while the rest keep facing nobody.

Anyway, I'll say it again. Don't EVER use the schiltrom!

[RomoR]

IAnyway, I'll say it again. Don't EVER use the schiltrom!

Yeah In all my tests Schiltrom was at the max, just equal to a normal tight formation, but mostly worst.

You know whats worst than Schiltrom, Wedge it's in a whole new league.
Use it if you really want to kill your general.

[Kraxis]

You do know that the Schiltrom is for refusing cavalry...

Try to use it against cavalry.

[Bullethead]

You do know that the Schiltrom is for refusing cavalry... Try to use it against cavalry.

I did, in my 1st series of tests with hobilars vs. spearmen. The results were completely consistent with my 2nd series of tests, when it was spear vs. spear. In both cases, the unit attacking the schiltrom takes much lower losses on initial contact than if it had hit spearmen in default formation, and then quickly butchers the schiltrom spearmen to a lower level of destruction than the same attacker would do to vs. a default spear formation. IOW, the schiltrom enhances spearman vulnerabilty, not defense, and it does so vs. both infantry and cav.

[Spendius]

Not related to Schiltron, but I tried to observe some of my units that were "fighting to death", only to see them standing there getting killed, not fighting at all. Anybody noticed the same behaviour ?

[Kraxis]

I haven't really had that many of those situations, but I do know that when they are fighting to the death they do not move. Each man fights for himself. Also they tend to be a good deal more lethargic in combat, so perhaps that was it?

[Martok]

I did, in my 1st series of tests with hobilars vs. spearmen. The results were completely consistent with my 2nd series of tests, when it was spear vs. spear. In both cases, the unit attacking the schiltrom takes much lower losses on initial contact than if it had hit spearmen in default formation, and then quickly butchers the schiltrom spearmen to a lower level of destruction than the same attacker would do to vs. a default spear formation. IOW, the schiltrom enhances spearman vulnerabilty, not defense, and it does so vs. both infantry and cav.

Well I didn't get much of chance to test it against infantry, but I can at least confirm that the schiltrom is useless against cavalry--I discovered this to my cost when assaulting a town.

[econ21]

It's not "research" but I found the schiltrom performed well to plug a bridge. I used stakes (backed by swordsmen) to funnell the exit to the bridge. To fill the gap on the road where you can't plant stakes, I placed 3 mercenary spearmen close together in schiltrom formation.

The Danes threw two near full stacks of good troops (mounted knights, dismounted FKs, those armoured pike-type militia etc) against that bridge and lost them all. By the end of the battle, I had lost only 2 spear units (had two spare).

Of course, the longbows helped. But still, I was impressed with the staying power of the schiltrom. They held up against both heavy cavalry and heavy infantry.

[Vladimir]

You do know that the Schiltrom is for refusing cavalry...

Try to use it against cavalry.

I don’t think people here understand the word refuse. If you refuse the flank you fall back slightly, at an angle to the line (hopefully), in order to refuse the enemy *your* flank. Refusing something doesn’t mean killing something, it means denying something. Of course any curved formation is going to be bad for spears. A Schiltron is an excellent defensive formation because it has no flank or rear. A caveat is that I’ve never *seen* the formation before, just read the descriptions here.

[Bullethead]

Of course any curved formation is going to be bad for spears. A Schiltron is an excellent defensive formation because it has no flank or rear. A caveat is that I’ve never *seen* the formation before, just read the descriptions here.

I think you've nailed part of the problem--there's a conflict between the general methods of M2TW's combat mechanics and the special needs of the schiltrom formation. the schiltrom obviously requires some special code to get the guys into the circle, but IMHO it also needs more special code to enable them to fight effectively in that circle.

In real life, the schiltrom was directly analogous to the Napoleanic square--an immobile, flankless porcupine for holding off the enemy, usually cavalry. Both worked because in real life horses would refuse to throw themsevles into all the pointy bits facing them. So the cav would stop and mill around the edges, reduced to slashing ineffectually with swords shorter than the spears they faced (for the schiltrom) or getting blown away by musketry from the inner ranks (the square). IOW, the protruding spears protected the schiltrom spearmen not only from the charge but from melee as well, but only if they stayed in their formation. Thus, they weren't going forward to poke the cav, and the cav wasn't able to approach within sword's reach, so that fights could go on indecisively for hours.

M2TW only partially models this. The schiltrom seems to do a fairly good job handling the charge part, with the cav stopping short and relatively few men on either side dying. But once the melee begins, the schiltrom is suicide. Instead of being kept at a distance, the cav is free to hack away at the spearmen, and because the spearmen are concerned only with maintaining their formation, the cav soon adds weight of numbers to its inherent stat advantages. And thus the schiltrom is quickly annihilated.

So, on the whole, the schiltrom has 2 of the 3 special code factors needed: it pretty well stops a charge, and the spearmen focus on staying in formation. However, the lack of the ability to stop melee attacks makes the schiltrom a death sentence for the spearmen unit. That, IMHO, needs to be fixed. Otherwise, the schiltrom is worse than useless.

It's interesting to compare the effects of the schiltrom vs. the spear wall (which I believe is a misnomer because "spear walls" can only be formed by pikemen, AFAIK). The "spear wall" does an excellent job of stopping both charges and melee attacks by cav. Horsemen remaining in front of the pikemen just stand there a hair's breadth from the points doing nothing but slowly side-stepping toward the pikemen's flank. When some cav do get around the flank and rear, pikemen there drop their pikes and use their swords, and do more than just hold their own against light cav. In fact, they do by far the most damage, because those in front keep the cav at a distance.

[Barry Fitzgerald]

I did some experiments with the schiltrom and the results were mixed.

I had an entire army of feudal knights v armoured sgt's....similar levels of experience..

In some ways if the attacking cavalry have a heavy charge...and can disrupt the formation..they can inflict big loses of 60% almost ...very quickly. The AI did this a few times...mostly with charges from 3/4 units....the force of the charge broke the formation..and the A Sgt's got mangled quickly.

If they don't impact heavy enough..the cavalry suffer heavy losses..and will likely lose..(that is if they are closely balanced)....single unit cav charges are a disaster.

But then you could question if a charge would occur anyway..aka the points about horses stopping short..sometimes they do.

In standard formation the A sgt's didnt seem so vulnerable to rear attack as I expected...fending off one unit with ease. Hence you have to question to what advatage at present is there with the shiltrom formation. Limited at best. I repeated the results with lower ranking units and of course they were less effective...

I also played with Billmen...the standard billmen is pretty bad against cavalry..even with high experience. I had an army of 1200 wiped out and a pathetic 29 enemy downed....I expected to inflict more casualties than that!

Heavy billmen do somewhat better..but no get a bonus for fighting cavalry. This is in complete contrast to the historical facts. Billmen were effective fighting cavalry..the reason being the bill itself is a spear...with an axe blade and hook...perfect for dismounting even well armoured knights...this was shown throughout its use in the english army..

I agree their defence rating is too low...a low armour rating is acceptable..as they were in general not heavily armoured...but they should get the cav bonus...suffer moderate casualties with a frontal charge..but inflict much more damage to an attackig cavalry unit than the do at present.

Billmen were good all rounders...and this currently isnt reflected in the game's performance of them. They are only stats wise refelcted as good attackers....though even this doenst follow through in the game.

[Kraxis]

Barry... Billmen are bugged currently, as are other twohanded axemen. They simply don't engage in melee with cavalry. They just stand there and take the punishment, which for Billmen is rather suicidal as their defensive strength is abysmal.

After the patch they should hopefully work... but until then, just don't use them agianst cavalry (seems doubly punishing ot the English).