The mongols, how does one beat them?

[Comrade Alexeo]

Wow, I'm starting to wonder if I should continue my conquering in the Middle East in my HRE campaign...



I know it sounds like a dumb idea, but has anyone thought about just bringing European strength head-to-head against the Mongols?

I'm talking about all-out massed heavy cavalry charges. Forget infantry, forget archers, forget artillery. Hell, forget maneuvering - just an enormous wave of Gothic Knights or Lancers or Hospitallers that tries to get into melee as soon as possible.

Now, I know that historically the classical European charge never found great success in the East, where they charged upon an enemy that simply stepped out of the way and shot their composite bow - but I also know that one of the biggest reasons for the lack of success was the fact that knights were vastly outnumbered. A charge on its own might be devastating, but it was just too little, too late...

...but in M2TW, this numbers problem might not exist. First off, we know they're coming. Secondly, we can get numbers of knights that medieval kings would never have even dreamed of. Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, we can replenish those numbers if we plan ahead.

Consider, for example, Crusader Knights. Enough Crusades and some babysitting, and you can rather quickly attain huge numbers of them.

I'm not saying that each battle would be anything better than a Pyrrhic victory, and more likely than not a loss, as you're basically trying to play the Mongols' own game by using cavalry. But - and here's the difference from history - what if the charges kept coming?

Gothic and Teutonic Knights against the Khans?

[andrewt]

I played Venice in M/M and am close to beating them back. They dilly-dallied for a while before settling down in Iconium and attacking Smyrna and Nicaea. They rampaged the Turkish and Egyptian lands for 60 turns or so before settling down. They had 10+ stacks by this time, however. I countered with mainly Stradiots, Hospitalliers, Venetian Heavy and Dismounted Feudal Knights. I had some culverins and ribaults as well on some battles with some mixed results

I attacked their flanks with cavalry and their middle with infantry. You can't skirmish that huge an army so they eventually get into melee with my cavalry and infantry and lose. Basically, the cavalry at the flanks cut off some of the escape routes of their main army. Some do skirmish off, but many don't. I position my troops just out of arrow range, then run in.

[IrishArmenian]

Fortify yourself in your castles, make ballista/cannon towers (These will kick their arses!) or, if one has money, pay them tribute and ally with them.

[Comrade Alexeo]

Well, I ran a test of my heavy-cavalry-all-out-charge and the results seem somewhat inconclusive.



My army consisted of

1 late Bodyguard with one armor upgrade, one weapon upgrade, one bronze chevron
6 Teutonic Knights with one armor upgrade
13 Gothic Knights

I don't remember the Mongols' composition exactly, but I remember 2 bodyguard units, and basically 4 each of their cavalry. All had one silver chevron and some had armor and/or weapon upgrades.

For this preliminary, all I did was line up my cavalry in a single massive line, put them all in one group, and as a group just ordered them all to attack the Mongol line as soon as the battle began. I'd occasionally reorder troops to attack (if, for example, they routed and then got back their morale), but for the most part I just let what happened happen.

A massive melee broke out in the center, where my cavalry happened to concentrate. They killed my general, but then I killed their general. Their center buckled, but the Mongols began winning on the flanks and, whether because of that or for some other reason I can't figure out, my knights began to rout. If I gained control of them again, I just sent them back into the fray. Eventually, however, the battle ended in a loss.

I'm not sure what to conclude yet. My nice big expensive army, made of the finest mounted troops the HRE has to offer, was devastated - but I took out over half the silver-chevroned Mongol army and killed their general. I also basically ignored tactics entirely during the battle, but the battle was fought in a nonexistent locale (the perfectly flat Grassy Plain map).

I'll see what happens with a more realistically attainable army of Crusader Knights and so forth later on. Stay tuned...

[ravinnder]

Guerrilla tactics work pretty well. When I was the Byzantines and defending the Balkan area, I consistently tried ambushes. Granted there are not that many forests on the map in certain areas.

However, usually there is a road area that leads to a town that you can count an army will pass through. I used mainly infantry armies for the ambushing - heavy infantry/spearmen and heavy cavalry. If the ambush is a success, you're pretty much guaranteed a victory. Try to engage their heavy cav. section first with their general if possible.

These tactics probably won't work if the Mongols are in full strength, but if most of their main field armies are gone, it could give you the surviving edge without resorting to long sieges.

[Barny Bangs]

As far as the idea of all-out Cav Charge is concerned, Cav vs. Cav. is the toughest problem with the Mongols: My English Knights and Armoured Swordsmen are doing quite well in hand-to-hand against the Mongols, the problem in my case is fighting the lightning-quick Heavy Archers out in the open. In the desert, with room to maneuver, I need two-three Cav units to pin down one unit of Heavy Archers, all the time being peppered by the other Mongol units. And as most Mongol generals are at least 6-star (yeah, encountered two 3-stars, but they were only reinforcements), their units don't even rout when there are only five Heavy Archers left.

An all-out charge (2 Bodyguard units, 5 units of Templars, 5 Crusader Knights, 7 Feudal Knights) I tried once ended in one of the most chaotic battles I ever witnessed. I won, but only by the slightest of margins.

Sheogorath's idea seems simple enough, yet you need a loooot of time and even more money (something I didn't have in my situation).

The idea of hitting them with swarms of spies and assassins sounds intriguing haven't tried it yet though I am in the possession of an Assassin's Guild HQ, as the nearest agent-turn-out facility lies in Rhodes. Yet, will load some old save-game and will give it a try, results posted later.

The idea of holing up in your castles, fortresses and citadels didn't work that good with me, but maybe I just suck in defending fortifications *And for an English King there lies no honor in hiding like a little girl inside the safety of walls* (turn off in-character mode :-)) (you remember that Welsh proverb about walls and bravery?)

My best advice, skirmish ahead with several Light Cav units, luring the Mongol army away from the main host. With lots of single units you effectively hinder the movement of their armies, the Mongols have to chase you around the desert (in my case) and you can chose when to strike and with what. It worked fine for me.... OR SO I THOUGHT:

After defeating eight or nine full stack Mongol armies, I was feeling proud as hell, and dissolved my armies to "pacify" the Middle East. My spies were just checking the damages to the East when suddenly four other mongols full-stackers turned up near Bagdhad. Aargh, I don't have that much money left, the HRE and Venice teamed up to launch attacks upon my Middle European possessions and resupply lines to the front get longer each year.

Still, I am absolutely loving the Mongols for three reasons:

Unique Battle tactics.
In the beginning it was quite a shock to notice that my routine tactics (shoot - nail - charge) did not work anymore (or at least not that well). I adapted my tactics (more Cav, less Inf, nearly no Missile Units as they tend to lose the shoot-outs in a big way).

Powerful enemy.
Yep, without question. Just as things got boring in Middle Europe, as no one seemed powerful enough to withstand me in the long run. The massive, brute force of the Mongols made strategic reconsiderations of my long-term plans inevitable. Loved it.

Balance of Power.
Up to the time of the Mongol Invasion, it seemed like the Middle Eastern factions were keeping checks and balances on each other. Though the Byzantine faction was a little more powerful, I still could exploit their animosities to divide and conquer. Attack Egypt, forge an alliance with the turks, sack some Turkish towns, make peace with Egypt. All the time they kept figthing each other, giving me free hand in laying waste to Middle Eastern cities. No more so with the Mongols. In scenario A. I descirbed above in my other post, they grew to be an worthy, threatening presence.

[Basileus]

Ive found it the easier to defend inside Fortress or Citadels against teh Mongols, in my current campaign i never had time to prepare and they popped up outside bagdad while Mosul only had a general inside. I quickly trained 3 Ottoman Inf and 3 Turkish Archers and never had time to send my JHI so the General was left with hes 3 archer units. I Was expecting a loss so i was building Edessa up to hold the Mongols but my small army in Mosul has so far defended bravely against 4 sieges so far killing all the Mongol inf and lucky enough to be able to retrain between sieges. I´ll play some more tonight and lets see how those brave men in Mosul do in the next siege.

The hard part with the Mongols is the stacks that move together, if you try to attack them you need some stacks your self and in the open its usually tough to beat them.