Cav way too powerful

[A.Saturnus]

You forget the effects of a spear formation. The densely packed mass of men, in which each man's weight contributes to the staying power of the man in front of him, is a major reason why a spear formation can stop cavalry. That is the power of the shield wall, the major infantry tactic in the early ages of MTW2's timespan.

Like pikes, spears do not massacre cavalry; rather, they win by sheer staying power. Cavalry bogged down is no force at all.

The difference between, say, a spear-armed formation of Anglo-Saxon fyrdmen and the gladius-armed Roman cohort is the reach of the spear. The Roman cohort could most certainly stop an oncoming cavalry charge, yes, but its soldiers couldn't reach the man on the horse. A spear's reach remedies that problem. Again: killing power is not the power of the "long pointy thing" soldier category.

No doubt that disciplined spearmen in tight formation could stop a cav charge but in medieval times spearmen never were highly trained. Even Sargeant Spearmen would be rather would be rather untrained, since almost the entire fighting elite in these times were knights. That's why heavy cav dominated the battlefields until the late medieval times.

[Maizel]

Also bear in mind, that a unit of gendarmes, is more than 2 times as expensive to maintain in the campaigngame

[econ21]

Interesting test, RabidGibbon. It fits my impression from solo play - knights vs spears head on = mutual assured destruction. Yes, the knights may prevail but at such a cost you don't want to do it. (Think charge of the light brigade.)

As to whether they are overpowered, I think there are at least two alternative standards: gameplay or historical accuracy. Probably three, if separate SP and MP gameplay.

For SP gameplay, I don't have an enormous problem. Unlike RTW, I don't find the AI cavalry rolling over me, nor do I find myself trying to roll over the AI with my cavalry. I'd still rather use swords or missiles to kill those spears. And I'd still rather use spears than other units to soak up a cavalry charge (although apparently pikes are the best).

For historical accuracy, it's open to debate. CA might have got it right - knights could prevail over spearmen but it would not be a smart general who tried a simple frontal assault. I've read more about Napoleonic warfare, where cavalry seem to have balked at steady infantry, but it's likely in the pre-gunpowder age, with heavier armour, they were used more aggressively.

On balance, I rather like M2TW knights. They are very powerful, but very fragile, and so interesting to handle. They remind me a little of heavy cavalry in RTR Platinum Edition. By contrast, I found MTW knights lacked a little punch while RTW cavalry were a little too robust.

[Sheogorath]

For historical accuracy, it's open to debate. CA might have got it right - knights could prevail over spearmen but it would not be a smart general who tried a simple frontal assault. I've read more about Napoleonic warfare, where cavalry seem to have balked at steady infantry, but it's likely in the pre-gunpowder age, with heavier armour, they were used more aggressively.

Thats what I love about the Napoleonic Russian Army, especially the units like the Pavlovsk Grenadiers.
Cavalry? Where? There?
CHARGE!
Imagine the effect THAT would have on cavalry, used to being the ones doing the charging :P


Anyway, one thing I have noticed with cavalry recently is the fact that the skirmish range for them is INSIDE the range of javaline units, EX: Polish nobles. This means that when fighting such units and trying to avoid MAD, you need to constantly move your cavy on your own.
'Tis quite frustrating, but I guess it would be hard to code proper skirmishing for such occasions.

[AussieGiant]

From what I've seen it looks about right. I don't think Cav are overpowered as you can't just charge around willy nilly, which is correct.

The game play Econ is describing is about what you should expect.

Please note If EVERYONE could please state what difficulty they are playing on so these discussions can be compared.

The only issue that needs to be addresses globally is the issue with only a few front rank soldiers in any formation charging when given the attack order. When this happens with a charge it is suicide (both Cav and Infrantry). You must have all the soldiers in a unit hitting at the same time. This I believe is a patch issue and should solve much of the balancing issues we are all talking about.

Maybe, "prepared" spear units should be a little more robust but it is certainly not going to get off a cav charge without some serious losses.

"Prepared" to me is either a spear unit in Guard Mode or in a shield wall or shiltron formation.

Please note, unprepared spear units would be very ugly.

Just a thought Waleed, can you double check this when spear units are 5 deep or greater. This should help.

[Leaping-Tall]

hmmm a good way of beating cav is to stop them from hittiong your infantry with a long ranged attack sacrafice archers or ur weakest infantry

[Daveybaby]

I really think the balance is about right.

Cav, if used properly, will devastate spearmen, especially if its 1 on 1.
Spears, if used properly, will devastate cav, especially if theyre used to pin the cav so another unit can get stuck in from the sides/behind.

Its not about one unit being better than the other, its about how you use them in combination with the rest of your army. Perfect.

Admittedly cav charges do seem a little fragile, and difficult to set up. It would be interesting to hear from CA as to whether this is intentional or a bug.

RabidGibbon's test is all well and good, but, as he admits himself, it isnt really relevant for a realworld battle. The purpose of spears isnt to beat cavalry, its to hold them while another unit does the killing. Also, unit purchase costs arent nearly as important in the campaign as maintenance costs are - in reality those gendarmes are going to cost more than twice as much per turn in upkeep - maybe this should be reflected in MP game unit costs.

[Whacker]

I'm inclined to agree with Mr. Davey, with the possible exception that *some* spear units are slightly underpowered, and some of the light cav units feel a bit overpowered. Even against basic spears the average "Frankish charge" of heavy knights and it's various cultural equivalents was absolutely devastating, even if the receiving company did not break on impact.

Just my $0.02 USD.

[Ulstan]

Those gendarme vs spearmen results don't make cavalry seem overpowered at all.

Man for man, expensive top of the line heavy knight units should definitely defeat an unsupported spear unit. I mean, what are the spearmen going to do to harm heavily armed knights on horseback with lances that may well outreach their spears? Nothing.

The real danger is that the horsemen would get bogged down slowly killing spearmen (they can't just dash them away in a glorious charge) and then other units would rush in and attack them in the flanks, or they'd get counter cavalry charged or shot up by archers or something.

I think this is probably the period where heavy cavalry was most dangerous to infantry, if there's one place for cavalry to be powerful, this is it.

[monkian]

I'd say some Knights are underpowered - Frankish knights always seem to get butchered.