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Thread: Battle of Raphia - 217 BC

  1. #1
    Krusader's Nemesis Member abou's Avatar
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    Default Battle of Raphia - 217 BC -- Now with a Beta Download!

    As of now I am using two sources. The first is Polybius's Histories as translated on perseus.tufts.edu: the relevant sections are 5.82 - 5.86. The second is p. 93 of John Warry's book Warfare in the Classical World.

    EB units that I am not sure to use for certain entries have question marks next to them and any help from the team would be appreciated. For example, I find it doubtful that Antiochus would use 6000 Hetairoi, but I can't think of anything else he would use.

    A good location for the site seems to be 196,81; however, you can see the coast and I am not sure how far inland the battle took place. I intend to start messing around with the battle editor sometime tomorrow.


    Arche Seleukeia

    Antiochus III

    Cavalry
    Horse: 6000 – Hetairoi(?)
    Elephants: 102 – Indian Elephants

    Infantry
    Phalanx: 20000 – Pezhetairoi
    Hypaspistai or Argyraspidai: 10000 – Hypaspistai or Argyraspidai
    Greek Mercenaries: 5000 – 2000 as Misothophoroi Phalangitai – 3000 as Misothophoroi ______ ?
    Arabs: 10000 – close-order or heavy infantry(?)
    Medians, Cadusians, and Carmanians: 5000 – close-order or heavy infantry(?)

    Archers
    Cretans: 2500 – Cretan Archers
    Agrianians and Persians: 2000 – Thanvabara

    Peltasts
    Peltasts: 7000 – Peltastai
    Lydian Javelin-men: 1000 – Akontistai(?)
    Cardacian Javelin-men: 1000 – Akontistai(?)


    Ptolemaioi

    Ptolemy IV

    Cavalry
    Guard: 700 – Hetairoi
    Egypt: 2000 – Kleruchoi Agemata Cavalry
    Greek Mercenaries: 2000 – Misothrophoroi Hippes
    Elephants: 73 – African Elephants

    Infantry
    Royal Guard: 3000 – Basilikon Agemata
    Phalanx: 25000 – Pezhetairoi
    Egyptian: 20000 – Machimoi Phalangitai
    Greek Mercenaries: 8000 – Misothophoroi Hoplitai (Polybius states they extended the phalanx)
    Gauls and Thracians: 6000 – Galatian Kleruchoi(?)
    Libyans: 3000 – Machimoi Phalangitai (Polybius states they were armed in Macedonian fashion)

    Archers
    Cretans: 3000 – Cretan Archers

    Peltasts
    Peltasts: 2000


    Are there any other sources that I should be looking at and would anyone be willing to help me with this?
    Last edited by abou; 03-06-2007 at 23:12.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Battle of Raphia - 217 BC

    I don't know the battle well, but if you're just talking about other possibilities for seleukid cavalry, there are a number of options. Some baktrian and iranian and cappadocian and other merc cavalry are possible (baktrian hippeis, arachosian light cav, cappadocian cav, mercenary thracian cav, some galatian cav, etc.)

  3. #3
    Krusader's Nemesis Member abou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle of Raphia - 217 BC

    I'm trying to figure out how exactly I want to split the forces up. There is a lot and because of unit positions and hardcoded limits I've had some trouble. Ptolemaioi will be in two armies and I can fit Arche Seleukeia into one, but it may be two. The nice thing about this battle is that the wings on the extreme from the commanders seemed to have really been occupied with their own devices and away from the commanders themselves; thus they can be split into separate armies logically.

    As of now, the ratio is 20:1 and elephants are 10:1. The elephants are at 10:1 because I can't think that having so few for each side would really do much of anything besides be javelin-fodder.

    Ptolemaioi 1st Army
    *Hetairoi with Ptolemaios IV (35)
    Kleruchoi Agemata Cavalry (100) <-- may split up
    Basilikon Agemata (100) <-- may split up
    Libyan Machimoi Phalangitai (150)
    Peltastai (100)
    Pezhetairoi (250)
    Pezhetairoi (250)
    Pezhetairoi (250)
    Pezhetairoi (250)
    Pezhetairoi (250)
    Egyptian Machimoi Phalangitai (250)
    Egyptian Machimoi Phalangitai (250)
    Egyptian Machimoi Phalangitai (250)
    Egyptian Machimoi Phalangitai (250)
    Cretan Archers (50)
    Cretan Archers (35)
    African Elephants (4 or 2 depending on ratio)

    Ptolemaioi 2nd Army
    *Misothophoroi Hippeis with Polycrates? (100) <-- may split up
    Misothrophoroi Hoplitai (200)
    Misothrophoroi Hoplitai (200)
    Galatian Kleruchoi (150)
    Galatian Kleruchoi (150) <-- maybe something else for the Thracians?
    Cretan Archers (45)
    Cretan Archers (20)
    African Elephants (3 or 2 depending on ratio)


    Arche Seleukeia
    *Hetairoi with Antiochus III (200) <-- if split, I will need to make two armies
    Misothophoroi Hoplitai or Theurophoroi (150)
    Misothophoroi Phalangitai (100)
    Peltastai (175) <-- Dahae, Carmanians, and Cilicians
    Peltastai (175) <-- Dahae, Carmanians, and Cilicians
    Pezhetairoi (250)
    Pezhetairoi (250)
    Pezhetairoi (250)
    Pezhetairoi (250)
    Argyraspidai (250)
    Argyraspidai (250)
    Cretan Archers (125) <-- may split up according to Warry's placement (63 and 62)
    Indian Elephants (6 or 3 depending on ratio)

    ---- possible split for second army ----

    *Baktrian Hippeis with Themison (100) <-- may split up or change unit type
    Arabs (50) <-- some type of close-order unit
    Medes, Carmanians, Cadusians (250) <-- close-order, maybe Nizag Gund?
    Caradcian Akontistai (50)
    Lydian Akontistai (50)
    Thanvabara (100) <-- Agrianians and Persians
    Indian Elephants (4 or 2 depending on ratio)

    TA, I'm going to look into the Seleukid cavalry. I'll try and see what other sources I can find - I think Diodorus Siculus may have written some things. Right now though, I'm not sure I want to split the Seleukid forces, but I might have to.
    Last edited by abou; 12-12-2006 at 10:00.

  4. #4
    Come to daddy Member Geoffrey S's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle of Raphia - 217 BC

    I'd really recommend checking The Seleucid army : organization and tactics in the great campaigns by Bar-Kochva. It contains indepth info on the battle with an evaluation of what the most likely army composition was; if you want I can post the numbers given for the various types of troops in that work.
    "The facts of history cannot be purely objective, since they become facts of history only in virtue of the significance attached to them by the historian." E.H. Carr

  5. #5
    Krusader's Nemesis Member abou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle of Raphia - 217 BC

    That would be great, Geoffrey. I was planning on getting the book through my university library system and reading it over break, but any help now would be appreciated.

  6. #6
    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle of Raphia - 217 BC

    If I was you I'd try to put both armies in one slot. Multple armies of the same faction always make it look less real and, it isn't that fun if you play with only a part of an army. Btw: why 4 units of Cretan Archers? Why not one consisting out of 85 men and another consisting out of 65 men?

    Also 0.8 might bring some units you might find usefull...

  7. #7
    Come to daddy Member Geoffrey S's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle of Raphia - 217 BC

    Well damn it. I wrote up some stuff and the forums timed me out, deleting my text. I'll try again tomorrow when it isn't one 'o clock at night.
    "The facts of history cannot be purely objective, since they become facts of history only in virtue of the significance attached to them by the historian." E.H. Carr

  8. #8
    Krusader's Nemesis Member abou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle of Raphia - 217 BC

    Quote Originally Posted by Gertgregoor
    If I was you I'd try to put both armies in one slot. Multple armies of the same faction always make it look less real and, it isn't that fun if you play with only a part of an army. Btw: why 4 units of Cretan Archers? Why not one consisting out of 85 men and another consisting out of 65 men?
    I probably will condense the archer units. Part of the problem is that they were split on either side of the elephants on the wings, but I don't think it would be out of the question to put one large unit of archers behind each elephant unit.

    Again, I wish I could make just one army for the Ptolemaioi, but the way they were arranged on the field and the number of units mentioned makes that impossible - at least according to Warry's layout. For example, the Libyans and Egyptians may be the same unit type, but the Pezhetairoi were between them; therefore, I can't just make a few Machimoi Phalangitai at 300 men and another at 250.

    Also 0.8 might bring some units you might find usefull...
    I'm hoping so. I'd rather not use Akontistai.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffrey S
    Well damn it. I wrote up some stuff and the forums timed me out, deleting my text. I'll try again tomorrow when it isn't one 'o clock at night.
    Keep trying.

  9. #9
    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle of Raphia - 217 BC

    Quote Originally Posted by abou
    I'm hoping so. I'd rather not use Akontistai.
    Oh, I'm talking about much more exciting units.

  10. #10
    Krusader's Nemesis Member abou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle of Raphia - 217 BC

    Don't tease me, man.

  11. #11
    Come to daddy Member Geoffrey S's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle of Raphia - 217 BC

    Right, second attempt. The section on the battle of Raphia in Bar-Kochva obviously provides more detail on the Seleucid side of the battle and in particular focuses more on tactics than exact army composition. This is what it says:

    Antiochus
    35,000 phalangites
    6,000 cavalry
    21,000 light troops

    Antiochus commanded the right wing of the battleline at the head of 2,000 cavalry: 1,000 companions and 1,000 agema. A further 2,000 mounted troops stood on the right wing, the remainder of the cavalry stood on the left. The centre of the line consisted of the phalangites with 10,000 argyraspides in the right section and 20,000 military settlers in phalanx formation in the left half. Between the cavalry on the right and the centre of the line stood 5,000 greek mercenaries as phalangites and 5,000 light eastern troops. The remainder of the light troops stood between the left flank cavalry and the left centre, and contained Arab and oriental lights. Antiochus’ Indian elephants screened the cavalry with Cretans interspersed between them.

    The main line was 16 to 24 men deep, with (crucially) the light troops being part of the main line rather than screening it.

    Ptolemy
    61,000 phalangites
    6,000 heavy Thracian and Galatian troops
    5,000 cavalry
    3,000 Cretan lights

    Ptolemy stood on the left flank with the majority of the cavalry, opposite Antiochus. Next to this cavalry stood the heavy Thracian and Galatian troops alongside Greek mercenary phalangites, opposite the weaker Seleucid right. The main phalangite force stood in the centre: the Egyptian phalanx (25,000 men) on the right and opposite the Seleucid military settlers and oriental lights, the European settlers (20,000 men) on the left opposite Antiochus’ argyraspides; Bar-Kochva also makes brief mention of this section also consisting of agema and peltasts. Like Antiochus, Ptolemy covered his cavalry with (African) elephants and Cretan light troops.

    The main line was 24 to 32 men deep and did not extend significantly beyond the Seleucid line.

    Battlefield
    The battle took place somewhat inland, with dunes near the flanks. Bar-Kochva argues that the dunes did not actually cover the flanks as room was needed for cavalry to maneuver on either side. The coastline shouldn’t be too nearby but should be visible.

    And by the way, I'd also advise against splitting the Seleucid army. The army seems homogenous enough to get away with large blocks of infantry.

    Good luck!
    "The facts of history cannot be purely objective, since they become facts of history only in virtue of the significance attached to them by the historian." E.H. Carr

  12. #12
    Member Member paullus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle of Raphia - 217 BC

    How did you get 61,000 phalangites on the ptolemaic side? I count 45-48 thousand. Are you counting the basilikon, the peltastai, and the misthophoroi as phalangites?

    As for the seleukids, the misthophoroi on the right flank should not be phalangites, they should be thorakitai or conventional hoplites.

    ptolemaics:
    1-klerouchoi agemata cav (could be reduced into the hetairoi unit)
    1-basilike ile/hetairoi
    1-african elephants
    1-kretan archers
    1-basilikon agemata
    1-"peltastai" - should probably be thorakitai
    1-klerouchoi agemata
    2-pezhetairoi
    2-klerouchoi phalangitai
    4-machimoi phalangitai
    2-misthophoroi hoplitai
    1-galatai klerouchoi
    1-thraikioi peltastai
    1-misthophoroi thessalikoi

    Seleukids
    2-hetairoi
    1-mad asabara
    2-indian elephants
    1-kretans
    1-thorakitai
    2-argyraspidai
    4-klerouchoi phalangitai
    2-arabian levies
    1-thraikioi peltastai
    1-persian archers (name slips me)
    1-misthophoroi hippeis
    leaving two more for other levy units

    I hope that helps in figuring out where to allocate things.
    "The mere statement of fact, though it may excite our interest, is of no benefit to us, but when the knowledge of the cause is added, then the study of history becomes fruitful." -Polybios


  13. #13
    Come to daddy Member Geoffrey S's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle of Raphia - 217 BC

    Quote Originally Posted by paullus
    How did you get 61,000 phalangites on the ptolemaic side? I count 45-48 thousand. Are you counting the basilikon, the peltastai, and the misthophoroi as phalangites?
    Yeah, this was annoying. Bar-Kochva specifically mentions 61,000 phalangites, but only mentions the 20,000 Europeans and 25,000 Egyptians in the battle report and a number of greek mercenaries. I found 61,000 too high myself, particularly since he makes no mention of lighter troops in the battleline such as the peltasts; these must be in addition to the 45,000 phalangites.
    "The facts of history cannot be purely objective, since they become facts of history only in virtue of the significance attached to them by the historian." E.H. Carr

  14. #14
    Member Member paullus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle of Raphia - 217 BC

    yeah, there are something like 61,000 medium-heavy infantry in the ptolemaic line, but there ain't no way they're all phalangites.
    "The mere statement of fact, though it may excite our interest, is of no benefit to us, but when the knowledge of the cause is added, then the study of history becomes fruitful." -Polybios


  15. #15
    Krusader's Nemesis Member abou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle of Raphia - 217 BC

    Thanks, Paullus and Geoffrey. I'm going to look more into what you guys wrote, but right now the project is on hold. I've had a hard time trying to get the battle editor to work both on my computer and a friend's -- CTDs and all. Hopefully I won't have those problems with the new base of RTW 1.5.

  16. #16
    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle of Raphia - 217 BC

    try copying the imperial_campaign map files to the base folder. It should work for 0.74 then. For 0.8 it will be different.

  17. #17
    Krusader's Nemesis Member abou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle of Raphia - 217 BC

    *sigh*

    I just picked up From Samarkhand to Sardis from my library and it contains a chart for Seleucid numbers in three big battles - the first of course being Raphia. The forces are slightly different, but at least I guessed correctly that the Lydians were akontistai. Here is what Sherwin-White and Kuhrt list:

    Phalanx
    20,000 Macedonians
    10,000 Argyraspides
    5,000 Greeks

    Semi-heavy infantry
    1,000 Thracians

    Light infantry
    1,500 Cretan archers
    1,000 Neo-Cretan archers
    500 Lydian akontists
    10,000 Arabs
    1,000 Cardacians
    5,000 Dahae and Cilicians
    2,000 Persian and 'Agrianian' bowmen and slingers
    5,000 Medes, Cissians, Cadusians, and Carmanians

    Heavy Cavalry
    4,000 military settlers
    2,000 Royal Guard
    At the bottom of the chart it states this:
    Fig.2. Sources of manpower for the Seleucid armies (after Bar Kochva 1989).
    So, assuming that this is the most correct (because it is a relatively recent publication) it answers a few questions and then raises a few more in return. The mystery cavalry on the left wing is somewhat taken care of, but what the hell are Neo-Cretan archers?

  18. #18
    Member Member paullus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle of Raphia - 217 BC

    if someone finds a convincing argument by someone as who the neo-cretans actually are, I'd love to see it. some think they are second-class cretan citizens, and that other than that there is little battlefield difference. some think they are armed in a different manner, perhaps as slightly heavier troops. still others have proposed that they are all-around marine-types, capable of boarding duties, but also skirmishing with their bows.

    for the purposes of the raphia battle, i'd treat them as cretans, there aren't enough of them in either army to justify separate units.
    "The mere statement of fact, though it may excite our interest, is of no benefit to us, but when the knowledge of the cause is added, then the study of history becomes fruitful." -Polybios


  19. #19
    Krusader's Nemesis Member abou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle of Raphia - 217 BC

    So, now that I have 0.8 installed I thought I would have better luck with editing battles. 1.5 vanilla had no problem getting to the editor; however, with EB 0.8 it keeps going back to the main game menu.

    I'll be building a new computer sometime within the next two weeks so I'll actually be able to play at the huge setting. By that time hopefully 0.81 will be out and will correct any problems I'm having. In the meantime I will just have to work on what units to use for the questionable deployments. Right now I'm leaning towards Thraikioi Prodromoi for the Seleukid wing, but if more cavalry units will be released I'll have to wait and see.

  20. #20
    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle of Raphia - 217 BC

    have you tried what I posted above? Otherwise maybe I can help with the battleeditor stuff.

  21. #21
    Krusader's Nemesis Member abou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle of Raphia - 217 BC

    The copying of the impertial_base folder? Actually, no I haven't so I'll give that a try.

  22. #22
    Krusader's Nemesis Member abou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle of Raphia - 217 BC

    Hey Gertgregoor, do you know what I need to get editing to work in 0.8?

  23. #23
    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle of Raphia - 217 BC

    Well I haven't tried yet, I'll have a look to see if I get it working. For 0.74 it's just the copying.

  24. #24
    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle of Raphia - 217 BC

    strange whatever I try, I can't get it to work.

  25. #25
    Krusader's Nemesis Member abou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle of Raphia - 217 BC

    Well, that's not good at all.

  26. #26
    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle of Raphia - 217 BC

    Know what I'll ask it to the other EB members, there must be someone who knows it.

  27. #27
    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle of Raphia - 217 BC

    Okay the solution, thanks to TK-421, is to install EB but not as submod but in the main data folder. then it should work. He also gave another piece of advise which I'll quote:
    Quote Originally Posted by TK-421
    Take the number of men at the battle and divide it by 25 and that will get you the number in RTW on large unit size. For instance, at Magnesia, their were 3000 Cataphracts on the right side of the Seleucid phalanx. 3000/25=120. 120 is too large for a single cav unit on large unit scale, so divide it into two units of 60 each. This doesn't work on some especially large battles.
    Using that for the Seleukids would give an army of 2720 men, which is a normal number for an RTW army. However note that imo some units like elephants and scythed chariots should be divided by a smaller number. As they would be useless as a single elephant or chariot.
    Last edited by Moros; 12-30-2006 at 21:15.

  28. #28
    Krusader's Nemesis Member abou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle of Raphia - 217 BC

    So how then do I install to the main directory? Should I just copy things or do a clean install?

  29. #29

    Default Re: Battle of Raphia - 217 BC

    abou?

  30. #30
    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Battle of Raphia - 217 BC

    Quote Originally Posted by abou
    So how then do I install to the main directory? Should I just copy things or do a clean install?
    You'll need to copy all files and check them all for directories which need to be changed. In a normal install they'll be something like this:
    .../EB/Data/...
    Obviously in this case the EB needs to be deleted as you know have copied your files over to the normal Data folder. You'll need to check all files referencing files (images, textures, models,...).

    EDit: sorry for the late awnser. I forgot about this.

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