Lethargic fights ?

[Akka]

Well, as I see nothing about it on the forum, I'm starting to wonder if I'm the only one who is deathly bothered by this, or if it's something that goes better with the newer units/upgrades.

But right now, I'm really scratching my head : is this just me or are the battle horribly lacking punch ?

What I mean with that, is that for now, I've the ugly feeling of watching a slow-motion fake battle each time I'm in a fight.
The movement speed is alright - perhaps even barely too fast, but really no problem -. But the charge and battle, oh my... The lack of ENERGY !

In RTW, when infantry charged, it was a rush, shouts, clash, people falling and being projected (well, in fact, the "flying people" was quite ridiculous) and pushed aside, some falling under the impact. You could tell and see the intensity and fury of the fight.

Here, in MTW2... It's a bit like in a soft dream...
I tell my troops to charge... They slowly gain momentum... They "charge" the enemy, but even the movement seems to be in slow motion (the moves of the units are really like it's been suspended in the air while slowly faking it's running). When they close with the ennemy, they slow down, rather than accelerate , and they finish by landing softly on the ennemy, taking care not to push him too roughly
Not even a crash sound.
Yeah, the "flying bodies" are removed, as are the "jumping horses", and that's alright, because the former was quite ridiculous, and the latter quite exagerated.
But come on, now they don't even trample the foe, they push them aside slowly and softly. It's like if all the mass has been removed, and two units charging at each other look like some hundred of feathers being cast at one another...

The fights themselves lacks violence, impact, energy, roughness.

So is it just ME, or is this whole lethargy thing also grieving the game experience for some others ?
Because I've some beefs with the game, I've many great things about it, but honestly, this softness and lack of punch is by far the worst thing, and it's really killing the game for me.

[Ciddler]

I was about to say that the armour back then was a lot heavier and that it was hard for them to gain speed in such heavy armour, but I looked up in Wikipedia and the armour, compared to today, is barely nothing!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armour

Contrary to common misconceptions, a well-made suit of medieval 'battle' armour (as opposed to the primarily ceremonial 'parade' and 'tournament' armours popular with kings and nobility of later years) hindered its wearer no more than the equipment carried by soldiers today. An armoured Knight (trained since his teens in its wearing) could comfortably run, crawl, climb ladders, as well as mount and dismount his horse without recourse to a crane (a myth probably originating from an English music hall comedy of the 1830's, and popularised in Mark Twain's A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court). A full suit of medieval plate is thought to have weighed little more than 60 lb (27 kg) on average, considerably lighter than the equipment often carried by the elite of today’s armies (e.g., SAS patrols have been known to carry equipment weighing well over 200 lb (91 kg) for many miles). barding is armour that horses wear.

But you'd also have to think about the fact that back then the average male was smaller than the average male today. Their eating habits were also different and they probably weren't as healthy as we are today and only lived to the age of 40 or so.

Aside of those facts, which I don't know if the developers respected all this info, I like the fact that the battles are a little slower. I don't feel rushed and I can actually enjoy the units clashing upon eachother rather than looking at them charge eachother for 3 seconds then zoom back out to make sure everyone else is doing their job. In M2TW I can watch them slash and dice eachother for a little longer then carry on ordering my men around. Just my view of it though.

[econ21]

But you'd also have to think about the fact that back then the average male was smaller than the average male today. Their eating habits were also different and they probably weren't as healthy as we are today and only lived to the age of 40 or so.

On the other hand, the fighting men may not have been that small. I vaguely recall reading about the skeletons of English longbowmen - six footers with oversized forearms. The report likened them to the professional rugby or football players of their day - big, powerful men. Plus I suspect they might have eaten a fair amount of meat and other food - more than the average peasant at least.

This probably goes for most knights and men-at-arms too.

[Akka]

You misunderstood me.

I'm not complaining about the killing speed (in fact, on the opposite, I found the speed at which my knights die to be borderling ridiculously high).
I'm complaining about the lack of perception of brutality in fights.
About the fact that units barely move when they are charged by a hundred of armored knights, that their movements seem slow-motion and the like.

I don't want to have faster movement, or faster killing speed.
I want more energetic animation, people being brutally pushed back/aside, units charging and crashing in a more violent manner.

Just load a RTW game, and look at the intensity the soldiers fight themselves, how they really seem to battle when they fight and the like.
Now load a MTWII game, and look at how lethargic the animations are, and how static the units are in front of a charge.

Nothing to do with movement speed (ok, except perhaps for the charge, where units nearly seems like they're walking) nor killing speed, just the, well, lethargic feeling of the battle.


And honestly, the size of people fighting has nothing to do with the savagery or energy they'll put in it.

[Ciddler]

I find it is good enough, atleast for infantry when they charge the enemy. In my opinion that is done fairly well. The cavalry however I agree is lacking, but that might be a bug which bothers me in my case. The horses would charge, then stop abruptly, turn around and form again, then charge finally.
There I am expecting a glorious charge, the general raises his arm, they storm towards the enemy AND... stop. It totally ruins the atmosphere.

But the way the dismounted knights raise their swords and shields and slash at the enemy, I like that. Cavalry no, infantry yessss very!

On the other hand, the fighting men may not have been that small. I vaguely recall reading about the skeletons of English longbowmen - six footers with oversized forearms. The report likened them to the professional rugby or football players of their day - big, powerful men. Plus I suspect they might have eaten a fair amount of meat and other food - more than the average peasant at least.

This probably goes for most knights and men-at-arms too.

Yes, but not every army was as well equipped as the English and I am sure they also had their fair share of worse-off armies. But those are the exceptions that confirm the rule.

I think it lies in the eye of the perspective of each player if it is too boring or very exciting. I bet for anyone who starts with M2TW these battles are awesome!

[Akka]

I find it is good enough, atleast for infantry when they charge the enemy. In my opinion that is done fairly well. The cavalry however I agree is lacking, but that might be a bug which bothers me in my case. The horses would charge, then stop abruptly, turn around and form again, then charge finally.
There I am expecting a glorious charge, the general raises his arm, they storm towards the enemy AND... stop. It totally ruins the atmosphere.

Yeah, I noticed that about cavalry too.
But the sad thing is, even when they do charge properly, they still seem to barely disturb the formation of the ennemy, and they don't feel brutal at all.

As for infantry, darn, having dozens of people rushing against one another SHOULD cause a loud crash and serious trampling. While here they just flegmatically trot to the ennemy and carefully stop before pushing them and fight softly.

[Bob the Insane]

Well there is a bit of an issue with units charging each other and the charge slowing and only the first couple of rows of men impacting... And then during the fight, well I know people like there personal space but it spacing out can get a little extreme...

I think it is the result of whatever they did to prevent the blobing (the prevention of which si very cool), I just think they might have done just a bit too much of it...

[MadKow]

Well... i charged a unit of Conquistadores against Janissary Heavies. The first charge i used a wedge formation, and it wasn't spectacular, then the Conquistadores backed away, reformed and charged in line, and BANG... there where Janissaries flying everywhere... and got creamed. Plenty of energy, i thought. Wedge formation sucks, i also thought, but that is another discussion.

[Akka]

I think it is the result of whatever they did to prevent the blobing (the prevention of which si very cool), I just think they might have done just a bit too much of it...

Yep, most of my men in the front row just stand here, doing nothing, because ennemies are a bit out of reach or already are fighting someone.
The killing speed seems much more diminished by this than by any new formula, in fact. As soon as fight begins, people die in a matter of second. But it seems to take ages before two people exchange hits.

[BigTex]

Well there is a bit of an issue with units charging each other and the charge slowing and only the first couple of rows of men impacting... And then during the fight, well I know people like there personal space but it spacing out can get a little extreme...

I think it is the result of whatever they did to prevent the blobing (the prevention of which si very cool), I just think they might have done just a bit too much of it...

Yeah the spacing on cavalry when they chase down routers is a bit insane.

As for men no longer flying. They do, I've seen it happen in both inf and cav charges. It doesnt happen as often anymore, thank god, and it is harder to see since the battles are a bit on the darker shade. As for the cav slowing, you have to set the charge up well, this time the shrubs and uneven terrian have even more of an effect.

The fights are slower but there far far better. On VH/VH I've only seen one mass rout and that was after a long and slugged out clash, ending in the enemy general dieing. No more of that contact and rout crud in RTW.

[Slaists]

But you'd also have to think about the fact that back then the average male was smaller than the average male today. Their eating habits were also different and they probably weren't as healthy as we are today and only lived to the age of 40 or so.

Forgot the source, but I read somewhere that human growth acceleration we see today historiclaly was not a one-way-street. Based on skeleton studies, average European male was supposedly around 6-feet tall at the beginning of the previous millenium (at the time the game starts) . Average human height supposedly went down from that point on reaching it's bottom during the Napoleonic wars.

[redriver]

if ya want vivid battles go back to playin' RTW heheh
there's no heavy units like in Medieval times and most men are half nakid and have a small shield with a short spear or sword. the armor/weapons they have isn't nearly as advanced as well. they just barely invented steel and thus not usin' it as much and it's of far lower quality.

when ya look at the above points it's easy to see why the battles in Rome are rather hectic in most cases. the infantry is super light compared to Medieval times and soldiers fight/die faster as a result.. it's much easier to toss an unarmoured man into the air as opposed to a tincan walkin' one...

basically, to me, RTW battles look very realistic as far as those details go... and I don't have problems with *lesser* graphics either ;)

[Puzz3D]

if ya want vivid battles go back to playin' RTW

The fighting in RTW is in slow motion compared to MTW or STW. In the earlier games, the combat cycle was 1 second. That's men striking with their weapon every second, and men tended to gang up on lone enemies better. RTW isn't even close to this intensity except on the initial impact.

[Akka]

The fighting in RTW is in slow motion compared to MTW or STW. In the earlier games, the combat cycle was 1 second. That's men striking with their weapon every second, and men tended to gang up on lone enemies better. RTW isn't even close to this intensity except on the initial impact.

Perhaps that the game mechanics were more frenetics, but in actual visual results, RTW is by far the more energetic, brutal and active game of the lot.
The units seems half asleep in MTW2 and the 2D sprites of STW and MTW don't lend themselves for an actual feeling of mélée.

[Puzz3D]

Perhaps that the game mechanics were more frenetics, but in actual visual results, RTW is by far the more energetic, brutal and active game of the lot.
The units seems half asleep in MTW2 and the 2D sprites of STW and MTW don't lend themselves for an actual feeling of mélée.

The fighting in RTW seems lethargic to me. The men wait something like 5 seconds between strikes. M2TW also has slow fighing animation going by the demo. In STW, the men are striking every second, and I can see them using their weapons. STW looks frenetic to me while RTW looks like slow motion.

The effect of a long combat cycle is an increase in the statistical uncertainty of a unit's combat results. IMO, the statistical uncertainty of the combat resolution was large enough in STW. So, I think shortening the combat cycle combined with reducing the chance to kill would help M2TW both in visual energy and in gameplay.

[Whacker]

The fighting in RTW seems lethargic to me. The men wait something like 5 seconds between strikes. M2TW also has slow fighing animation going by the demo. In STW, the men are striking every second, and I can see them using their weapons. STW looks frenetic to me while RTW looks like slow motion.

The effect of a long combat cycle is an increase in the statistical uncertainty of a unit's combat results. IMO, the statistical uncertainty of the combat resolution was large enough in STW. So, I think shortening the combat cycle combined with reducing the chance to kill would help M2TW both in visual energy and in gameplay.

I second this. STW and MTW, the combat looked more frentic and faster, but it was using the old dated 2d pixelated visuals. (I also loved the combat noise, esp. that high-pitch squeal-yelp that was in STW )

In RTW, the combat looked a bit slower, but it felt more visceral and the initial impacts were much more powerful, visually. Some people hated the flying guys and the jumping horses, even though they aren't realistic, I still liked those animations because it added the overall feeling that violent combat is occurring here.

I can't put my finger on it well, but I concur with Akka's OP, M2TW does feel lethargic compared to it's two predecessors. For one, the initial impacts on charges are woefully inadequate, I'd be all for bringing back RTW's flying men and jumping horses. Second, in terms of combat speed, I think it could stand to be sped up. Methinks they could speed up the animations and cycles and be able to balance out the kill rates and speeds so that it evens out in the end.

To M2TW's credit, while a minor feature, I do like the fact that when soldiers die their textures are darkened and they appear to be covered in blood. It makes it easier to identify when the soldiers bite the dust, versus just getting knocked down like in RTW.

[Akka]

In RTW, the combat looked a bit slower, but it felt more visceral and the initial impacts were much more powerful, visually.

Yep, that's exactly my point !

I don't think, though, that it's necessary to bring back the flying horses and bodies. Just allowing the units to actually charge with and through impact (rather than half-run until being close of the ennemy and then switching to a slow walk until being able to attack), including pushing back the ennemy in a violent manner and knocking down people, would give back the feeling of energy.
A little more reactivity a bit higher acceleration would also be good.

Edit : gosh, this whole lethargy is really sucking all the fun out of the game :-/
I've had to fight a defensive siege. The foes succeed in bashing the door, ok. They start to pour in the place, I send my cavalry to push them back...
Gah, they "run" at half-pace until they're close and then stop to swing their swords... Is it THAT you call a charge to repel the invaders ? 0_o They didn't even pushed a single infantryman out of the way...

[Kobal2fr]

I didn't think combat was that slow paced in Rome, or rather that if it was, it was in a "realistic" way. I don't know if you guys ever LARPed or were part of LCA-like stuff (in which case, you should. Sure, you look like a dork, but it's hella fun), but what I saw on the screen seemed to reflect what I've witnessed in semi-organised latex-sword battles pretty well.

First you charge in like an idiot, hoping that you'll "kill" the guy in front of you as fast as you can (and not the other way round), and then when contact is made, both units are mingled and momentum is lost, you do tend to end up either in a lot of semi-autonomous duels with empty space inbetween, or (but that requires more discipline) you manage to keep close formation, but then you will spend much of your time waiting for the right moment to strike.

The former is what we see in M2 I guess, with unit cohesion quickly lost in a self-preservation reflex. The (mostly subconscious) reasoning behind that sort of thing is that it's hard enough to defend yourself from one man without having to worry about his mates on top of it. Besides, swinging a two-hander requires space. When you're done with your own foe, you can go and help your allies, but not before.

The latter is what happened in Rome : you're between two allies who protect you, in front of you are three enemies protecting each other, and you can't strike any of them. None of you can - stalemate. If you do, you open yourself wide to the other two. Of course, if they do choose to exploit that opening, they open themselves to your allies, etc... so it turns into a game of chicken of sorts, wherein he who cracks first tends to lose in the end. Hence, the deliberate slow pacing and waiting for the opponent to make that mistake (or to be distracted by, say, heavy cavalry charging home from the back ;) ).

Of course, we were just nerds in wool chainmail, not trained soldiers, but I think the principle still applies.

I agree there is some weirdness surrounding charges and unit cohesion in M2 though - I believe they were supposed to be the same as Rome's, only they aren't at all, for some reason. Many charges seem to stop instantly whenever the first few men reach the target unit (and that is, even is the charge actually works, and doesn't stop 5 feet away, draw swords, walk into combat, like we know happens a whole lot). These guys are then on their own, with the rest of the unit watching idly instead of actually reaching the ennemy unit... And of course, they die, along with half your unit, which just stood there, not being in close formation anymore, but not charging in either.

It's not always the case, but it does happen often enough to warrant looking into it.

[Ignoramus]

I have heard that maintaining a tight formation for a charge was one of the hardest things for a group of cavalry to do. Imagine guiding your horse with one hand, aiming you spear with the other, and trying to make sure you kept in formation.

Remember that armour for cavalry in the Middles Ages would have been heavier than in the time of Rome.

[Whacker]

I don't think, though, that it's necessary to bring back the flying horses and bodies. Just allowing the units to actually charge with and through impact (rather than half-run until being close of the enemy and then switching to a slow walk until being able to attack), including pushing back the enemy in a violent manner and knocking down people, would give back the feeling of energy. A little more reactivity a bit higher acceleration would also be good.

OK, I've paid more attention to this bit in the game this evening after seeing/participating in this thread, and have somewhat revised and solidified my opinion.

I think you said it best Akka, the fact that when one can actually get a GOOD cohesive solid charge that keeps going and connects, the initial impact is ... impressive, but it only seems to affect the first row, and after that first 1/4 or 1/2 second it just sputters out. Like you said, the charge needs to keep going and push deep into the unit you're charging home to, this was much much better in RTW. I think first and foremost the charging is just bugged, and CA knows this and is working on fixing it. Second, I suspect that this behavior may also be a direct result of them making it hard/near impossible to "pass through" friendly infantry units with cavalry. In RTW it was a cinch to have cav move quickly through solid infantry formations, they seem to have "fixed" that. Personally, I listed this as a strong dislike, it's a royal pain and an overall hindrance to maneuvering, in my opinion.

Second, my opinion regarding combat speeds remains. In STW and MTW the combat looked much more fast 'n furious, this is what I'd like to see. If they choose to adjust the current kill rates up or down a tad I doubt I'd care, but I want it to look like fast, strenuous, visceral combat is going on, at least much faster than what we have in RTW and M2TW.

Cheers!

[Morrie]

Charging with lances has to be badly bugged. I refuse to believe that the mechanic is working as intended, more so after witnessing very convincing charge from my glorious French Mailed Knights. Let me relate to you the story of how Prince Loius the Merciless, bless his thick iron heart, utterly vanquished his puny opponents, Captain Milanesedude and Captain Krautbastard (yes, a joint attack was orchestrated to take down the good prince for he had kicked many a backside while frolicking about milanese countryside and his enemies were shaking in their greaves of the pee-soaked variety).

It was fairly usual `odds stacked against you´ battle of 600 strong French army locking blades with 1000 strong Milanese/Holy Roman Empire joint attack force which the French High Command designated "Geethat'salotofspears", a French word which, when translated, reads "We Shall Fight Them Head On With Our Glorious Cavalry Because That Is Obviously What God Wants Why Else Would We Have These Big Horsies." Clearly French language is superior to this crude and raw string of ugly words, but I digress.

After the usual pre-battle exchange of words between prince Louis and the two captains where Louis offered to do terrible things to them, his army of murderers cheering in the background, the two opposing forces readied their arms, strung their bows and mounted their chargers. The battle was titled "Wholelottablood" by the French, another highly cultivated example of the finer language. The Krauts and Pasta-eaters just call it "That one battle where Lucifer swallowed thousand men."

I'm not going to bore you (any further!) with detailed description of how prince Louis the Merciless slaughtered hundreds of enemy combatants but I will tell you of a freak accident involving 60 man unit of Milanese Militia Spearmen, routed, broken, running and being chased by a unit of Mailed Knights, around 20 man strong.

I had double clicked my knights to close the distance between the fleeing spearmen without actually telling them to attack them, I had just clicked a point little way back from the blop of men. After they were suitable close I ordered my men to attack the milanese by right clicking once on their banner. What happened can only be described as Divine Occurrence: my unit did not slow down from their charge speed but instead lowered their lances and continued at full pace towards the doomed spearmen, riding through the unit with their lances lowered, killing some 40 men, then wheeling about and hacking them to pieces with their swords. It is a charge unlike any I've seen before in M2TW, something that I think is the indended mechanism for charging moving enemies, something that I've imagined would be realistic. I haven't been able to duplicate the event, instead getting the bog-standard "push them a little bit and then change to swords" effect.

In case anyone is interested the terrain was completely flat around the spearmen, no obstacles or obstructions were present. One time accident which has never surfaced since. There weren't any flying bodies by the way, just men hitting the ground - hard.

(I actually posted all this just to get that damned friendly reminder to post and make myself welcome in the Org. from appearing on top of the page. I also enjoy M2TW a lot. More than MTW/RTW:BI at any case. It's probably better than shogun. I've only been frequenting the Org since shogun so eh)

[Quin]

I wholeheartly agree. The clash of the two cavalry forces from the Battle of Tannenberg (spelling) was heard for miles. Here you don't hear or see practically nothing, even if you manage to get your cavalry charging (as hard as it is).

Cavalry charges are probably broken, they should be possible and they should be more devastating. You can't really compare them to RTW era since medieveal knights with their armour were heavier (so the force of an impact was by far larger), they had stirrups and way larger battle horses. Charge of heavy cavalry SHOULD penetrate at least 2 or 3 lines of enemy's foot units, especially if latter are some peasents or low grade milita, even if they are armed with (short) spears. Currently cavalry can't smash thorugh 3 lines even if they are in wedge formation (!?).

They weren't called the kings of the battlefield for nothing, you know...

On a side note, maybe they should had only one charge per battle since once their lances are broken they can't use them anymore...

[Koval]

I'll have to agree that the fights are lethargic to some extent.
The main thing that has been bothering me is the recurrence of a problem from RTW, where only the front few soldiers in a group are halfheartedly attacking, while the rest of the team stands back and makes an effort to edge away. This seems to be especially evident in siege battles on top of walls. It seems to be slightly better than what happened in RTW, but nonetheless it is annoying.

Something else i was peeved about was when, as the English, i was repelling a Scottish siege assault from my Fortress of York. After routing the majority of their soldiers, i noticed an undefended group of catapults which proceeded to rain boulders onto my walls. I immediately assigned a full team of mailed knights to take care of them. Their army fleeing around them, the Scottish catapult crew, clad in their light tunics, pulled out their short daggers and before being overcome, took out about 7 of my mighty knights, whose charge wavered as they approached the siege equipment. Either its just me, or there was something not right about that. In the original MTW, a platoon of peasants, let alone pathetic siege engine crew, taking out EVEN 1 knight was unheard of.

[Akka]

Ok, so for now, from my own observations and the feedback of this threads (and some informations from other threads) it seems there is four elements giving this feeling of lethargy :

- Slow-motion animations. The smallest of the three, but still, when people are "running" or "charging", they seem to barely trot, which somehow diminish the feeling of power.
Samely, deaths are usually slow animations, quite removed from the "hack and fall death" one can expect in battle.

But again, this one is quite minor. The two below seem to hold the majority of the responsability :

- Units are somewhat unresponsive.
Seems that a unit have a hard time to follow an order to charge/attack/run. They seems to first reform, and then obey. Which mean they simply take forever do it if they are already in fighting (as fighting tend to disrupt formation), and they usually move in another place while reforming, while you still wait for them to go where you told them.

- Charges just don't usually work.
The units tend to run toward the ennemy, then slow down nearly to a stop and cover the few last meters walking. Sometimes, I even have the units go back (to "reform" ?) before the connection with the ennemy, while I'm still madly clicking either on the target unit, either on the space between them and the target unit. Most frustrating.
Even if they do run into the ennemy, they barely move them, and the feeling of "impact" is totally lost.

- Spacing is just ridiculous.
By "spacing", I talk about the space that a unit take when it's fighting. I tend more and more to think that this spacing is in fact responsible for the above charge problem (perhaps that the units enter in "combat mode" soon before the charge connect, and suddendly they are surrounded by the wall of force of spacing making all other units around them stop and give them space, which effectively nullify the charge ? Just guessing here, but it sure feel like it) and also the unresponsiveness (spacing blocking/hampering the movement of units in combat).
Each unit take a HUGE space to fight, and it ends ofent up into absurd situations, where a unit is massed just before some thin-spaced battle line, with barely 5-6 men fighting in the middle. Just like a crowd admiring some duels, but really unlike any kind of organized combat between two formations...
Even more frustrating, it seems to often make movement bug, with units unable to make a coherent rush toward the ennemy, and rather crawling along the walls in streetfight, or taking a lot of time to slip around when attempting to make a rear/side attack.


I hope that this thing is patched soon, or at least moddable, because it's really a game-killer for the moment.

[MadKow]

Unit cohesion seems a bit of an issue...
And i agree that in general there is a certain lack of weight.

I also think some of that impression comes from some of the graphics design but i cant quite put my finer on what... i guess more realistic proportions make relatively skinny models, amplifying the effect of spacing between indivduals...

Not to mention the way my Turcomans scattered when engaged in melée...

[Garnier]

the animations are halfhearted, and the fact that so few men are fighting at a time is annoying. In real life, medieval battles would be very brutal, crashing combat, where a mass of men would collide with another mass of men, and they'd be hacking and chopping left and right, getting mixed up with each other, isolated and destroyed, and fighting "together", not individually. I HATE how spearmen in M2TW "swing" their spears at the enemy. In reality, spears were used in packed formations, thrusting forward, not swinging side to side through enemies. To withstand a cavalry charge, you needed to plant spears and shields in front of a PACKED mass of infantry, and skewer the cavalry as they collided with you, which would be loud, and like.. its hard to describe but you know what I mean.

[Garnier]

Here are some refreshing screenshots of combat in chivalry total war: http://www.stratcommandcenter.com/fo...howtopic=17477

[Akka]

Gosh, the combat system of RTW seems much better in action than the one from MTW2 :-/

[Kobal2fr]

Remember that armour for cavalry in the Middles Ages would have been heavier than in the time of Rome.

Not necessarily true. That's the same as saying that since M1A1 tanks are far sturdier, they must weigh twice as much as Tommy Cookers. But if armour technology breakthroughs only consisted in "Lars, mate, just strap sum' more stuff on da git's back and be done wij it already, beer's a-waitin !", I'm quite confident the Romans would have figured.

Contrary to belief, medieval armour (and, I assume, armour in general) wasn't so much about being thicker or covering more space as about developping ways to either derive more protection from the same weight, or give the same amount of protection with lighter armour.

Of course, I'm no specialist however far you stretch my understanding of these things, but I'm confident that should you compare Byzantine Kataphracts (spelling ?) with, say, Gothic Knights (rough era equivalence there), you'd find out that Gothic armor proves either lighter and more wieldy, or just as cumbersome but 100% safer.

Besides, whatever the weight may have been, you just get used to it over time, and that's a good way to exercise actually. Try wearing weights around your wrists. The first few days/weeks, moving your arms will be more difficult and tiring. Then you'll move them as fast and easily as you did without the weights. And then you take 'em off, and you concuss yourself answering the phone. But that's another issue :).

[Husar]

On the other hand, the fighting men may not have been that small. I vaguely recall reading about the skeletons of English longbowmen - six footers with oversized forearms. The report likened them to the professional rugby or football players of their day - big, powerful men. Plus I suspect they might have eaten a fair amount of meat and other food - more than the average peasant at least.

This probably goes for most knights and men-at-arms too.

Which makes me wonder why all those armours in museums tend to be very small?