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Thread: possible for EB?

  1. #1

    Default possible for EB?

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=51049
    second post down

    look at what I found while looking around the twcenter forums- it's a script that allows for units to
    A) have 0-turn recruitment time- but only from their capitol
    B) be formed outside a city, on the "field of mars" or whatever it's called

    This is a very cool script idea- not for everyone of course, but for the Romans, KH, Makedonia, Averni/Aedui, Casse, and Getai I thinks it's a great idea!

    As the romans, you can only train one unit of trusty Romans at a time and so you must just keep an army standing and slowly replenish it with men churned out of Rome and later, all of Italy.- of course the Romans didn't keep a standing army, and could call up as many men as necesary (ex- 2nd Punic War, vs Hannibal). While I HATE 0-turn recruitment (messes with AI, and doesn't make sense normally) in this case it DOES MAKE SENSE! The Roman core army can be speedily trained (uh oh! Gallic invasion! Better whip up an army!) and then disbanded when there's no threat (well, the Gauls are gone, no sense paying upkeep for all you lot! back to work!). The allies will provide men more slowly, (0-turn only works in capitol) which can be explained by the need for more beauracratic wheel-turning before allies show up. Imagine playing EB Rome with not only realistic unit names, skins, and stats, but also realistic army recruitment and management. It's just too cool for words...


    And it's not just for the Romans. Any faction with a "starting city" should have a similiar system. The Casse can call all their menfold to war to dominate Britian when ready, and don't need to revert the (ahistorical) method of slowly building a standing army over time.

    The KH could have a variant form, where each starting city could have that script (I'm not sure this is possible, but hear me out) so when Athens needs to, she summons her army of Athenian-bred soldiers, same with Sparta and Rhodos. Now it feels like we're commanding an army of a coalition and roleplaying becomes that much better.

    The case is the same for lots of other factions; the only real exceptions being large empires that don't really have one, central city or homeland, or whose armies were more profesional or simply weren't levied armies. (ie Selucia, Parthia, Sarmatia, Saka-Rauka, etc)


    Is this script possible to put in place in EB (for certain factions?
    If so, can we include it in some later version?
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  2. #2
    Krusader's Nemesis Member abou's Avatar
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    Default Re: possible for EB?

    That looks cool, but the team already stated that they are not doing 0-time recruitment.

    From the FAQ:
    Q: Are 0-turn buildtimes for certain units being considered?
    A: The idea has been discussed and rejected.

  3. #3

    Default Re: possible for EB?

    Quote Originally Posted by abou
    That looks cool, but the team already stated that they are not doing 0-time recruitment.

    From the FAQ:
    And thanks God for that.

  4. #4

    Default Re: possible for EB?

    I already know that 0-turn recruitment has been rejected, and I agree; 0-turn recruitment messes with the AI and was largely ahistorical; however, maybe this merits reconsideration because it eliminates those two fatal flaws with universal 0-turn-recruitment. It's only in the capitol, and for certain factions (ie Roma) it is more realistic to allow recruitment to function this way, while the others don't need to have this script in.

    It's not the same as 0-turn recruitment, it's all the good parts without the main flaws, so can it at least be considered?
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  5. #5

    Default Re: possible for EB?

    if the eb team does not implement it you could always do it yourself (its what I do)

  6. #6

    Default Re: possible for EB?

    It doesn't quite give units a 0-turn recruitment time; units still have their normal recruitment time (ie 1 turn), but in this case there's a recruitable general unit (a la BI) and when it is trained, a whole army is spawned via script a few tiles from the city. The general would have to be extremely expensive, of course, but still.

    I like the idea, far more realistic than taking years to train a single army. To balance it out you could make it so that troops trained normally will start with one or two experience points while the 'levied' troops have none.

  7. #7
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: possible for EB?

    I can foresee some intense pain involved in creating a decent army-spawning script like that for the, uh, midly complicated EB recruitement system though...
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  8. #8
    Member Member Dumbass's Avatar
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    Default Re: possible for EB?

    That is a very cool script, I really think it should be incorperated into EB, with Cheexsta's idea about experience.

  9. #9

    Default Re: possible for EB?

    where can I download RES GESTAE? not to play it of course but I would sure like to see how to make a script like that of my own...

  10. #10

    Default Re: possible for EB?

    There are some issues though:
    1) how is it going to fit in the mod alongside the complex recruitment structure?
    2) how is it going to work with factions that have a very narrow unit roster?
    3) how is it going to work with the more complex events that take place in EB, such as reforms that are not tied to an exact date?
    4) what effect is it going to have on AI? -> The AI is already having trouble with crossing any distance at sea, and it doesn't make sense to script spamming of armies that don't really have a purpose.
    5) what factions get to 'use it', and what factions don't?
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  11. #11

    Default Re: possible for EB?

    hmmm, all good questions, and I'll admit I don't know if they'll be problem with the recruitment system, but I doubt it. All the modders would need to do is add a special General's unit (or whatever they call it) only trainable in certain faction's capitols, and when this unit is recruited, an army is spawned (it is also a good way for EB-ers to have historical armies) out side on a specific tile.

    As for the factions, clearly factions with one "homeland" province, like Roma for the Romans, maybe Casse starting province (sorry, forgot ), or Athenai, Sparte, and Rhodos for KH (see one of my previous posts for explination of different idea for KH. It could even to added to Getai, Makedonia, and any other factions the history buffs around here think could use it.

    And I don't see how rosters will stop it, it just spawns an army- of all one unit if the modders really wanted to...the unit composition isn't really a problem.
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  12. #12
    EB TRIBVNVS PLEBIS Member MarcusAureliusAntoninus's Avatar
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    Default Re: possible for EB?

    Wouldn't this be a human player only option? To the AI they would see a single expensive unit not worth the cost. This would stop the AI from 'spamming' many armies though.


  13. #13

    Default Re: possible for EB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator
    And I don't see how rosters will stop it, it just spawns an army- of all one unit if the modders really wanted to...the unit composition isn't really a problem.
    It's not that it will stop the script from coming into being, and being effective in any way but the 'feel' of "oh, no here we go again..." like people already have with the infamous stacks of Triarii, or light missile infantry, or Klerouchioi.

    IMO, it definately should not just be an extra feature for the human players only, since it would then basically end up being a sort of 'cheap way around the recruitment system'. There is no way of properly balancing the cost of scripted armies and manually recruited ones if we take the prerequired investments for the latter into account, as long as the AI can't make use of scripted armies too. To me it boils down to this: the already poor AI that wastes it's money on worthless stacks, and has to build everything itself, is given a disadvantage by some script that enables humans to get around the recruitment system. In other words: if you create such a script, make it 100% sure the AI will use it!
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  14. #14

    Default Re: possible for EB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios
    There are some issues though:
    1) how is it going to fit in the mod alongside the complex recruitment structure?
    2) how is it going to work with factions that have a very narrow unit roster?
    3) how is it going to work with the more complex events that take place in EB, such as reforms that are not tied to an exact date?
    4) what effect is it going to have on AI? -> The AI is already having trouble with crossing any distance at sea, and it doesn't make sense to script spamming of armies that don't really have a purpose.
    5) what factions get to 'use it', and what factions don't?
    Bearing in mind that I have no ties to the EB team (and thus don't speak on their behalf), but from what I gather:

    1. It'd be reasonably simple. First, it would only be available at that faction's starting capital (but won't move if the capital moves). Second, the 'general' unit that would spawn the army would only be made available at a specific MIC level and with a specific government type (ie type 1). Third, it would only really recruit units that are already available at that time, so for Rome it would recruit maybe 2 Hastati, 2 Principes, 1 Triarii, 2 Leves and a unit of Equites. All of these units would be available from Rome at that level of MIC, so it's essentially the same as recruiting a Legion normally from Rome but without taking so long.

    2. By spawning a very narrow range of units?

    3. Scripted reforms work by placing a building in every settlement and then using that building as a conditional for recruitment. It'd be reasonably simple to have the script check to see whether that building is present in the capital city and then generate the appropriate army. So for Rome, if it detected the Polybian Reforms 'building', the script would place a Polybian army on the Field of Mars.

    4. You'd be surprised how well the AI uses its navy in 1.5 and 1.6. It's not brilliant, but they at least understand the concept of loading an army into ships and reinforcing besieged settlements overseas. In one RTRPE game recently, Carthage took over most of Sicily and sent its victorious armies elsewhere. When I, as Rome, attacked Sicily and destroyed their few remaining armies, I split my army up to besiege their cities. Imagine my surprise when a few full stacks landed on the island to relieve their sieges and my army was in pieces.

    5. I'd say that most armies should have access to it. Rome is known for levying armies at an extreme rate when it needs to (ie Hannibalic War), Carthage would be able to raise an army of Mercenaries, and most other factions would be able to get some levy-type troops quickly and easily if it had to. Of course, the AI wouldn't recruit the general unit that would spawn the army, but it shouldn't be hard to be able to add into the background script a few lines to make the army automatically spawn if the faction is in danger (ie it has cities under siege and has no armies). What would be cool is if that army was destroyed then that faction would sue for peace and accept almost anything, but the closest one can come to that is using the "console_command force_diplomacy accept" cheat in the script (which, I might add, only works in scripts).

    Just my 2c.

  15. #15
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: possible for EB?

    I've read that one of the problems with the Carthaginians' merc-heavy army was specifically the time it took to gather all those sellswords from all around the Western Mediterranean. Although they did have a citizen-militia system of sorts (Citizen Militia and Cavalry basically, AFAIK), who could presumably be put to field very quickly in a crisis. I've read Carthage maintained pretty impressive stockpiles of weapons and armour in stores built into its triple wall.

    Conversely Republican Rome had a huge pool of citizen militia all over the Italian peninsula, and could simply call successive portions to arms as needs dictated in a comparatively short time.

    Just thought I'd point that out.
    Last edited by Watchman; 11-18-2006 at 00:46.
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  16. #16

    Default Re: possible for EB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman
    I've read that one of the problems with the Carthaginians' merc-heavy army was specifically the time it took to gather all those sellswords from all around the Western Mediterranean. Although they did have a citizen-militia system of sorts (Citizen Militia and Cavalry basically, AFAIK), who could presumably be put to field very quickly in a crisis. I've read Carthage maintained pretty impressive stockpiles of weapons and armour in stores built into its triple wall.

    Conversely Republican Rome had a huge pool of citizen militia all over the Italian peninsula, and could simply call successive portions to arms as needs dictated in a comparatively short time.

    Just thought I'd point that out.
    I stand corrected then - Carthage would have to be restricted with this script.

    Everyone else, though, should be able to levy armies pretty quickly. Makedon would get a few Taxeis Phalangitai and Akontistai, the Ptolemies would get Machimoi of various flavours, Pontos would get Pantodapoi (normal and pikes) and so on.

  17. #17

    Default Re: possible for EB?

    Recruitible generals is a BI feature just pointing that out. Also I dont see why AI couldnt handle it. Youd either have it so the AI wont buy it (normal general stats). Or make the generals stats all 60 and making the morale 1 (autoresolve would kinda kill the idea though). So chances are AI wont be able to or simply wont recruit them if it was implemented.
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  18. #18
    Member Member Warlord 11's Avatar
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    Default Re: possible for EB?

    Couldn't you make the general unit cheap, but in the script that generates the army, put in a part that takes money away from the factions treasury. That way, the AI won't see the extra cost, and will probably build it.

  19. #19
    EB TRIBVNVS PLEBIS Member MarcusAureliusAntoninus's Avatar
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    Default Re: possible for EB?

    What about population? If the script could be made to take population out of the city, but it is not a requirement, then what about cities with 400 people in them (about 90% of the cities I take from the AI, btw). Would there be a way of restricting the recruitment of armies to cities that have people in them?


  20. #20

    Default Re: possible for EB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkarbiter
    Recruitible generals is a BI feature just pointing that out. Also I dont see why AI couldnt handle it. Youd either have it so the AI wont buy it (normal general stats). Or make the generals stats all 60 and making the morale 1 (autoresolve would kinda kill the idea though). So chances are AI wont be able to or simply wont recruit them if it was implemented.
    Recruitable generals was introduced in BI, but that doesn't mean it can't be added to 1.5. Most of the stuff that can be implemented in 1.6 can be added to 1.5 as well (obvious exceptions being hordes and unit formations).

    Couldn't you make the general unit cheap, but in the script that generates the army, put in a part that takes money away from the factions treasury. That way, the AI won't see the extra cost, and will probably build it.
    IMHO, it would be better for the player to be able to see how much he/she is paying straight up before doing it. The AI can always be made to spawn an army when it needs to via the script anyway.

    What about population? If the script could be made to take population out of the city, but it is not a requirement, then what about cities with 400 people in them (about 90% of the cities I take from the AI, btw). Would there be a way of restricting the recruitment of armies to cities that have people in them?
    Population can be removed from the settlement as normal, and can be added as a requirement for the spawn army script to work. So part of the conditions would be that the city has more than 3k population, for example.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: possible for EB?

    It might be an interesting idea to make the recruitment cost itself relatively low, compared to the old recruitment system. A full stack of proper (that is, not a levy stack raised for emergency purposes) would cost somewhere between 5000 - 10,000 mnai. The upkeep costs would have to be increased somewhat to make them more relevant.
    If you recruit a "levy stack" to repulse an unexpected invasion, you could disband them afterwards. In RTW and most mods this simply isn't a good idea because training troops again when you need them would be expensive.
    And if you exterminate an enemy settlement, you could disband parts of your armies to recolonize the settlement. I don't know if culture penalities are moddable, but if so you'd probably want to increase the significance of government buildings in this regard.

  22. #22

    Default Re: possible for EB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheexsta
    Bearing in mind that I have no ties to the EB team (and thus don't speak on their behalf), but from what I gather:

    1. It'd be reasonably simple. First, it would only be available at that faction's starting capital (but won't move if the capital moves). Second, the 'general' unit that would spawn the army would only be made available at a specific MIC level and with a specific government type (ie type 1). Third, it would only really recruit units that are already available at that time, so for Rome it would recruit maybe 2 Hastati, 2 Principes, 1 Triarii, 2 Leves and a unit of Equites. All of these units would be available from Rome at that level of MIC, so it's essentially the same as recruiting a Legion normally from Rome but without taking so long.

    2. By spawning a very narrow range of units?

    3. Scripted reforms work by placing a building in every settlement and then using that building as a conditional for recruitment. It'd be reasonably simple to have the script check to see whether that building is present in the capital city and then generate the appropriate army. So for Rome, if it detected the Polybian Reforms 'building', the script would place a Polybian army on the Field of Mars.

    4. You'd be surprised how well the AI uses its navy in 1.5 and 1.6. It's not brilliant, but they at least understand the concept of loading an army into ships and reinforcing besieged settlements overseas. In one RTRPE game recently, Carthage took over most of Sicily and sent its victorious armies elsewhere. When I, as Rome, attacked Sicily and destroyed their few remaining armies, I split my army up to besiege their cities. Imagine my surprise when a few full stacks landed on the island to relieve their sieges and my army was in pieces.

    5. I'd say that most armies should have access to it. Rome is known for levying armies at an extreme rate when it needs to (ie Hannibalic War), Carthage would be able to raise an army of Mercenaries, and most other factions would be able to get some levy-type troops quickly and easily if it had to. Of course, the AI wouldn't recruit the general unit that would spawn the army, but it shouldn't be hard to be able to add into the background script a few lines to make the army automatically spawn if the faction is in danger (ie it has cities under siege and has no armies). What would be cool is if that army was destroyed then that faction would sue for peace and accept almost anything, but the closest one can come to that is using the "console_command force_diplomacy accept" cheat in the script (which, I might add, only works in scripts).

    Just my 2c.
    1) Not historical accurate, as those armies simply were assembled on a predefined meeting point, that is for example Rome for the Romans. This means you should be able to move such a place around.
    2) That's not fun, is it? I believe I stated this in this thread before.
    3) You're using a lot of buildings just for scripting, and how is this going to affect the whole mod regarding the building limits? Remeber that only few factions are nearly completed, thus that there will probably new buildings needed to portray the others.
    It's not that it's wrong to use such building conditionals, it might simply be not enough especially since the mod isn't near completion (factions, units, etc.)
    4) This is due to a simple line in the strat.txt, which tells the faction to prefer naval invasions. Point is, that although AI is clearly improved regarding naval activity, EB has such expensive ships that this might simply be too much to cope with. After spending all your income, included scripted income, the AI doesn't have anything to build new ships with.
    5) I'm of the same opinion there, but is the EB team?

    Note that all of the 'issues' I mentioned prior to and in this post shouldn't stop the script from coming into being. Oh no, all I'm stating is that it's all very simple to want it in, it's quite another thing to incorporate this alongside the mod as it is now, or as it is in EB 0.8 (for as far as I know it).
    Last edited by Tellos Athenaios; 11-19-2006 at 15:55.
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  23. #23

    Default Re: possible for EB?

    Its not as hard as you might think, just takes a bit of effort :)

  24. #24

    Default Re: possible for EB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios
    1) Not historical accurate, as those armies simply were assembled on a predefined meeting point, that is for example Rome for the Romans. This means you should be able to move such a place around.
    2) That's not fun, is it? I believe I stated this in this thread before.
    3) You're using a lot of buildings just for scripting, and how is this going to affect the whole mod regarding the building limits? Remeber that only few factions are nearly completed, thus that there will probably new buildings needed to portray the others.
    It's not that it's wrong to use such building conditionals, it might simply be not enough especially since the mod isn't near completion (factions, units, etc.)
    4) This is due to a simple line in the strat.txt, which tells the faction to prefer naval invasions. Point is, that although AI is clearly improved regarding naval activity, EB has such expensive ships that this might simply be too much to cope with. After spending all your income, included scripted income, the AI doesn't have anything to build new ships with.
    5) I'm of the same opinion there, but is the EB team?

    Note that all of the 'issues' I mentioned prior to and in this post shouldn't stop the script from coming into being. Oh no, all I'm stating is that it's all very simple to want it in, it's quite another thing to incorporate this alongside the mod as it is now, or as it is in EB 0.8 (for as far as I know it).
    1. Problem there is that it would be near-impossible to script. So to have such a levy army only available at the capital is an abstraction of reality, like most of the features of RTW and its mods. But it would still be more realistic than taking 3 months to train a single unit of men.

    2. Is playing such a faction fun? If so, then why wouldn't having a scripted army of such units not be fun? Most factions, though, have access to a reasonable number of troop types so this shouldn't be a problem at all.

    3. Have you ever gotten reforms in EB? They work by using the script to place a building in every settlement that is used in building conditionals. I don't see this changing with 0.8 since there is virtually no other way to implement reforms (well, there is one other I can think of, but it still involves a scripted building...). So it's quite feasible to have a different set of scripted armies for a faction depending on what buildings are in their settlements at the time.

    4. descr_sm_factions.txt, yes. And this was not a setting that I had enabled for my game. But you do have a point regarding the AI's hesitant attitude towards building fleets.

    I don't think it'd be overly hard to implement, and I only have an intermediate knowledge of scripting. But in the end it's up to the EB team to decide whether it's feasible or not.
    Last edited by Cheexsta; 11-19-2006 at 22:25.

  25. #25

    Default Re: possible for EB?

    glad to see I'm not the only one who likes this idea, and thanks Cheexsta for explaining it- I wasn't sure it could be done!

    can any EB mods comment? Is this just too big a change to make? Or can it be put into place? Or maybe you've made all your plans for 1.0 and don't intend to add anything to the checklist...

    but if non of that is the case than could it be added, pretty please!
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  26. #26

    Default Re: possible for EB?

    We really do have our hands full right now. I don't think we can even think about it before 0.8 is out (so for the rest of the month). We're just trying to get to 1.0 right now, and a number of other cool things we've got with scripts are tabled for the time being.

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