Circassia

[WCB]

This is the correct Circassian Flag, that was based on Hatti sign of SUN. Created as a sign of unity os all Circassian Tribes.







Notice the Arrows on the flag, these are Circassian arrows, a detail that is not known to many people. the TIP is made not to stick in the body like regular arrow, but to drain more blood when hits the target. You can find this tip in early pictures of Circassians like this one



Circassian warriors used to ware a metal ring on the big finger of right hand, when shooting the arrow , Circassians did not use Europian stile of holding the string with 2 fingers, Circassians used the BIG finger which has more power when pulling the string back, and therefore arrow would shoot further.

There is a lot of details about Circassian Warriors, as i mentioned in Private message there is a professor that i have contact with, who can gie us some very unique details about Circassian warfare, he has been studiing it for over 15 years.
Some special strikes with Shashka, one of the most lethal strikes on battlefield was also presented in a short video (I lost that CD, but will try to find it soon)

Here is a Cartoon about Famous Circassian warrior and legend Hero Sousruko. Might help you to see the landscape and some details

www.adygaunion.us/music/Movies/Sosruko.WMV

By the way Cegorach, are you planning to put any tribe names for Circassians ? or you will have them as One ? As you know geograpically there were several Circassian tribes, or to say small kingdoms with counts, and it might put more interest in the game.

[Yinal_the_Great]

Hello WCB

I agree with you on the flag issue.
----------------------
About adding different tribes...

Since Cegorach will be away for a while I wanted to try answer that:

Well thats abit too much to ask; this mod is much more general, covering whole Europe. At most perhaps Dagistanis /or Chechens, but I think even that does not look likely for now (and for near future).

I mean to give an example from Caucasus you can still add so many things... Chechens, Abazhians, Kaberdians, Kiakhs (Western Adigas -?-), Mingrelians, Lezghis... or go even more deeper; Different Chechen and Georgian tribes and clans, more titles, more units... you got the idea I think...

But imagine doing whole Europe like this! Not possible in Total War games.

As far as I understand, Circassia is barely acceptable at the current detail level in Pike&Musket.

If it was the whole world, and if the nation limit was 10 instead of 30: It would be just Ottoman, Chinese, Mughals, French... etc.

Maybe in Europa Universalis 3 , or a similiar game.

Thanks.

[Savoy]

I do not think that this flag approaches(suits) to(towards) declared length of time of this play(game)

[Savoy]

There is article in russian language about gun complex circassian 14-17 ages. From it you will hear that circassians were a lawmaker of the mode in weapon and defensive element for Europe, Turcii, Caucasus and mamluks of Egypt.

[Savoy]

In 1903 N. Veselovskiy beside cossack village Ust-Labinskaya has found the remainder a ring-plate panoply. This type panoply is characterized the most high defensive characteristic since in wickerwork were included metallic, steel plates. Dignity of the mail and armor successfully matched In ring-plate panoply i.e. this was and the most strong, and the most light panoply. M.V. Gorelik, the largest russian connoisseur of the weapon, dated the discovery Veselovskogo XIV-XV century. The Burial mound excavated Veselovskim, is defined as circassian, on that indicate: 1) anthropological type; 2) weapon, stock and funeral rite. The Important certificate that that for the first time ring-plate panoply came up for circassian ambience, is that fact that his(its) begin to carry mamluks in Egypt, as from period of the rule of the first circassian sultan az-Zahir Barkuk (1382-1399

... Three types panoply were the most widely-used in that time: mail cape, plate panoply and armor. More Wide-spread was shown idle time cape raincoat,... some of them were not simply long, but were dragged on the ground, when rider dismounted. Later part mail cape has a collars. Practically all ed panoply the known on museum and quotient collection, pertain to epoch mamlukian circassian state (1382-1517) and on their study are based findings european specialist on histories of the weapon and panoply. Same we can speak on all other element cavalry, chivalrous arms - known his(its) copies, as a rule, are connected with circassian mamluks XV centuries. The Circassian longing to relieve the arms not reducing herewith defensive function, is particularly seen send "misyurka

The Continuation follows......

(Excuse me for my bad english)

[Savoy]

mamluk-circasian sultan



Zakhir Barkuk



I think here is approaching photography given length of time

[WCB]

Hello WCB

I agree with you on the flag issue.
----------------------
About adding different tribes...

Since Cegorach will be away for a while I wanted to try answer that:

Well thats abit too much to ask; this mod is much more general, covering whole Europe. At most perhaps Dagistanis /or Chechens, but I think even that does not look likely for now (and for near future).

I mean to give an example from Caucasus you can still add so many things... Chechens, Abazhians, Kaberdians, Kiakhs (Western Adigas -?-), Mingrelians, Lezghis... or go even more deeper; Different Chechen and Georgian tribes and clans, more titles, more units... you got the idea I think...

But imagine doing whole Europe like this! Not possible in Total War games.

As far as I understand, Circassia is barely acceptable at the current detail level in Pike&Musket.

If it was the whole world, and if the nation limit was 10 instead of 30: It would be just Ottoman, Chinese, Mughals, French... etc.

Maybe in Europa Universalis 3 , or a similiar game.

Thanks.

I understand, was just wondering.

Now when you say Circassia, I hope you include Kabarda in it, because its an absolute biggest part of Circassia, eastern part.
I agree to include Circassia as one country with borders according to maps from Black see to Dagestan, from Tartar to Georgia.


Savoy,
Its understandable that the flag as it is presented in my post was not exact same in 1570, but it seems to make more sence to have that flag since it represents Circassians worldwide.
When players choose to play as Circassians, they will have Green flag with 12 stars and 3 golden arrows, and whenever they see this flag in real life, they will know what it means.
This flag is the only flag of UNITED Circassia, and thats what it represents. I hope makers of the game choose it as comon flag for Circassians.

[WCB]

A friend of mine, from Caucasus a member of Worldwide Circassian Brotherhood provided this valuable information to the game. His experties are high in history and weaponry, so please adjust the game accordingly so it is historically correct.


First of all, we need to get rid of this Dzhigit word. It is not an Adyghe word, has very little to do with Adyghe.

Prnce Inal is called Nehu of Nef, NOT Tegen, which is a Turkish word, please make sure it isnt in the part 2.


As I understand, we need to give a few names for units and their desciption.

Infantery.

Lhukotl Infantery - basic foot unit type, it is peasantry, with little training, armed with swords (jate) and shields (me'u). Little or no armour at all.

Repatriated Mamelukes - a lot of Circassian Mamelukes returned home in the 16th century. This type of unit could also be mounted on horses. Good training, better quality weapons.

Abadzekh Shooters - missile unit. Armed with (depending on era) bows, crossbows and rifles. Excellent accurate shooters.

Shapsugh Infantery - Shapsygh used to live in the woods and on mountain slopes, so they should have a bonus when fighting in forests.

Psikhadze - "Water Dogs Army". Battle axes, swords and small shields. Excellent when ambush.

Ubykh infantery - best infantery unit of all. Tireless, bonus when fighting in the woods and mountains, and especially in the night battles.

Cavalry Units.

Lhukosho Raiders (Лъхукъуэщо) - basic cavalry. These are lightly armoured (leather armour called tejeley) ex-peasants who preferred knightly life to agriculture. Small shields, sabres.

Beslen-Wark Cavalry - keep in mind, that Circassian nobles (warks) were the backbone of mostly mounted Circassian army. They didnt like much fighting dismounted. However, they made excellent cavalry, far superior to that of Tatars and Cossacks. Leather armour with metal, sashkho - Circassian sword you saw in pictures, bows (yes, they can shoot arrows, too, but they arent a missile unit), later rifles.

Bjedough (or Temirgoy) Wark Cavalry - advanced wark cavalry with metal chain armour. Sashkho, pistols, rifles. Bonus when fighting in forests.

Kabardian Armoured Wark Cavalry - best Circassian cavalry, armoured head to toe with special Circassian mail, that was almost impossible to peirce (afe-jane). Excellent weaponry, firearms as early as 1550's.

Keep in mind that Circassian sashkho was a deadly weapon of first strike. Swift and strong, sashkho's left little chances of surviving to those charged with them. Because of this fact, Circassian cavalry should have an extra bonus when charging.

Circassian weapons and mail was very popular in the middle ages in Europe and Russia. In fact, Polish king Zygmund II August welcomed 5 princes of Circassia and their wark warriors at his court and granted them rights of the Polish aristocracy. More on that see here:
http://www.circassianworld.com/kruszynski.html
Another Polish king Jan Sobesski brought several thousands of Circassian wark warriors to his army in 1682. The king liked Circassian style so much that he wore Circassian clothes and preferred to ride Circassian horses. Circassian regiments proved to be excellent fighters in the numerous Polish-Turkish Wars and remained in the Polish army as the "Petyhorski Horugvi" (Five mountains regiments) until 1795.
(This is from a Polish historian B. Baranovski's book called Caucasus and Poland in the XVIIth Century).

NOTE: Circassians were called Petyhorcy (from Five Mountains), because Circassians of Kabardia were called at that time Piatigorskie Cherkesi.

All units should be armed with Circassian daggers (kama). This weapon was simply a part of national dress and even boys had their own small daggers, which were equally lethal.

As for tactics, they were a lot of different kinds. One that I can remember now was called "Shou Chapse", "A Line of Riders". Enemy cavalry was being lured out of the battlefield by a false retreat so that they were made to break up their ranks and stretch themselves into a line and then the enemy was suddenly charged with sashkho's.

Circassian battle cries - Ewa! Marje!

As for Leaders and titles - i'll post some later.

[Gedonist]

[Yinal_the_Great]

A friend of mine, from Caucasus a member of Worldwide Circassian Brotherhood provided this valuable information to the game. His experties are high in history and weaponry, so please adjust the game accordingly so it is historically correct.


First of all, we need to get rid of this Dzhigit word. It is not an Adyghe word, has very little to do with Adyghe.

Prnce Inal is called Nehu of Nef, NOT Tegen, which is a Turkish word, please make sure it isnt in the part 2.


As I understand, we need to give a few names for units and their desciption.

Infantery.

Lhukotl Infantery - basic foot unit type, it is peasantry, with little training, armed with swords (jate) and shields (me'u). Little or no armour at all.

Repatriated Mamelukes - a lot of Circassian Mamelukes returned home in the 16th century. This type of unit could also be mounted on horses. Good training, better quality weapons.

Abadzekh Shooters - missile unit. Armed with (depending on era) bows, crossbows and rifles. Excellent accurate shooters.

Shapsugh Infantery - Shapsygh used to live in the woods and on mountain slopes, so they should have a bonus when fighting in forests.

Psikhadze - "Water Dogs Army". Battle axes, swords and small shields. Excellent when ambush.

Ubykh infantery - best infantery unit of all. Tireless, bonus when fighting in the woods and mountains, and especially in the night battles.

Cavalry Units.

Lhukosho Raiders (Лъхукъуэщо) - basic cavalry. These are lightly armoured (leather armour called tejeley) ex-peasants who preferred knightly life to agriculture. Small shields, sabres.

Beslen-Wark Cavalry - keep in mind, that Circassian nobles (warks) were the backbone of mostly mounted Circassian army. They didnt like much fighting dismounted. However, they made excellent cavalry, far superior to that of Tatars and Cossacks. Leather armour with metal, sashkho - Circassian sword you saw in pictures, bows (yes, they can shoot arrows, too, but they arent a missile unit), later rifles.

Bjedough (or Temirgoy) Wark Cavalry - advanced wark cavalry with metal chain armour. Sashkho, pistols, rifles. Bonus when fighting in forests.

Kabardian Armoured Wark Cavalry - best Circassian cavalry, armoured head to toe with special Circassian mail, that was almost impossible to peirce (afe-jane). Excellent weaponry, firearms as early as 1550's.

Keep in mind that Circassian sashkho was a deadly weapon of first strike. Swift and strong, sashkho's left little chances of surviving to those charged with them. Because of this fact, Circassian cavalry should have an extra bonus when charging.

Circassian weapons and mail was very popular in the middle ages in Europe and Russia. In fact, Polish king Zygmund II August welcomed 5 princes of Circassia and their wark warriors at his court and granted them rights of the Polish aristocracy. More on that see here:
http://www.circassianworld.com/kruszynski.html
Another Polish king Jan Sobesski brought several thousands of Circassian wark warriors to his army in 1682. The king liked Circassian style so much that he wore Circassian clothes and preferred to ride Circassian horses. Circassian regiments proved to be excellent fighters in the numerous Polish-Turkish Wars and remained in the Polish army as the "Petyhorski Horugvi" (Five mountains regiments) until 1795.
(This is from a Polish historian B. Baranovski's book called Caucasus and Poland in the XVIIth Century).

NOTE: Circassians were called Petyhorcy (from Five Mountains), because Circassians of Kabardia were called at that time Piatigorskie Cherkesi.

All units should be armed with Circassian daggers (kama). This weapon was simply a part of national dress and even boys had their own small daggers, which were equally lethal.

As for tactics, they were a lot of different kinds. One that I can remember now was called "Shou Chapse", "A Line of Riders". Enemy cavalry was being lured out of the battlefield by a false retreat so that they were made to break up their ranks and stretch themselves into a line and then the enemy was suddenly charged with sashkho's.

Circassian battle cries - Ewa! Marje!

As for Leaders and titles - i'll post some later.

Very good!

Unit Roster looks alot more detailed and more accurate than mine.

I thought alot about Dzhigit I guess it fits Dagistanis more than Circassians.

What about titles like "Shu (Shoo) Pashe" is there are non Turkified-Russofied names for some of the others I posted? If you can find them, please dont forget to change them also, (if you can) Cegorach wants native names as much as possible.

My Circassian is too basic for some of those!

[Yinal_the_Great]

WCB I would like to ask one thing if I may...

Forgive my poor Circassian but how about this:

Cavalry : Showay or Shoo -Horsemen- (Instead of Shoodze -Horsemen Army-) -Spelling *

Infantry: Zevako -Warrior-

Thanks

[Ilkhanate]

the ilkhanate must also be in it in this mod because they were very big and good.

( Hülegü Khan, Abaka Khan, Arghun Khan, Ghazan Mahmud Khan and Muhammed Olcay-to Khan and his son Great and Last Khan: Ebü Sa'id Bahadir Khan )

[WCB]

Very good!

Unit Roster looks alot more detailed and more accurate than mine.

I thought alot about Dzhigit I guess it fits Dagistanis more than Circassians.

What about titles like "Shu (Shoo) Pashe" is there are non Turkified-Russofied names for some of the others I posted? If you can find them, please dont forget to change them also, (if you can) Cegorach wants native names as much as possible.

My Circassian is too basic for some of those!

I insist on useing word WARK instead of word Pashe.
Because WARK - is circassian word meaning royal, cheaf.

Cavalery can be called SHUDZE or SHYDZE - shu-horse dze-army

We have native names for ALL of the units, because Circassians had all of them in the army and named them useing their language. So whatever you need translated please let me know, we will change names to Circassians native names.

Now about the MAP and how Circassia should look in the game. Here is a most acurate map of Circassia 1570-1700 including all the provinces and neighbours that existed at that time.
We should use this map for the MOD and develop battles accordingly.

http://www.adygaunion.com/gallery/al...p1550_1700.png


Lets see what else we need to move forward with the mod ?

[WCB]

The top message was suppose to have a QUOTE .....can someone fix it please ?


Done - Cegorach

[Yinal_the_Great]

Cegorach:

Hmm... I want to try to make a list of all the things that I couldn't translate very well. Mostly titles for now: I don't know if you want to get in to more detail with Circassian military units (I know its only a minor faction) but WCB really made a perfect list.

Most things with my names I thought was allright (did my best anyway), but a few really bug me. I will think about all of them and post them tomorrow or next couple days.

[cegorach]

Ok. Time for some questions I hope that you and Savoy will be able to help answering them.



Units - in general I need the names for those in CIRCASSIAN - I want to avoid English if possible.
So the names should be completelly Circassian - every single word in unit's name should be in this language.

If possible use historical names, if not please translate the existing ones.


Finally if POSSIBLE we will need to reconstruct the images of each unit - weaponry, uniforms - everything.

One good image for one unit - 3D models will be based on this image here in PMTW2 and in Ogniem i Mieczem - I cooperate with them and told Alias from their team that this thread will be used to describe circassian military for BOTH mods.

Infantery.

Lhukotl Infantery - basic foot unit type, it is peasantry, with little training, armed with swords (jate) and shields (me'u). Little or no armour at all.

OK. So poorly armed peasants. How were they used ?

Only in defence of local communities, as the last resort or maybe more often and even in larger battles too ?
Finally this sword and shield how did those look like ? Some sort of unique circassian style or rather diverse collection of weaponry - whatever a peasant could get ?

Repatriated Mamelukes - a lot of Circassian Mamelukes returned home in the 16th century. This type of unit could also be mounted on horses. Good training, better quality weapons.

What weaponry did they use ? Were they from Persia or the Ottoman empire ?

Abadzekh Shooters - missile unit. Armed with (depending on era) bows, crossbows and rifles. Excellent accurate shooters.

Tactics ? I mean - marksmen, guerilla fighters or something more used in open battles ?

Shapsugh Infantery - Shapsygh used to live in the woods and on mountain slopes, so they should have a bonus when fighting in forests.

Weapons ?

Psikhadze - "Water Dogs Army". Battle axes, swords and small shields. Excellent when ambush.

Interesting name. Why they were called this way - maybe they lived on the coastline and were in fact some sort of pirates like Cossacks ?

Ubykh infantery - best infantery unit of all. Tireless, bonus when fighting in the woods and mountains, and especially in the night battles.

Again weaponry ?

Lhukosho Raiders (Лъхукъуэщо) - basic cavalry. These are lightly armoured (leather armour called tejeley) ex-peasants who preferred knightly life to agriculture. Small shields, sabres.

Was this tejeley similar to this kind of Russian armour ?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Beslen-Wark Cavalry - keep in mind, that Circassian nobles (warks) were the backbone of mostly mounted Circassian army. They didnt like much fighting dismounted. However, they made excellent cavalry, far superior to that of Tatars and Cossacks. Leather armour with metal, sashkho - Circassian sword you saw in pictures, bows (yes, they can shoot arrows, too, but they arent a missile unit), later rifles.

Tactics. I mean how did they use the missile weapons - to soften the enemy before a charge, in defence or was that used even less often ?

Bjedough (or Temirgoy) Wark Cavalry - advanced wark cavalry with metal chain armour. Sashkho, pistols, rifles. Bonus when fighting in forests.

In forests ? For what reason, I mean did they use guerill tactics, some sort of missile unit or perhaps for ambushing the enemy ?

Kabardian Armoured Wark Cavalry - best Circassian cavalry, armoured head to toe with special Circassian mail, that was almost impossible to peirce (afe-jane). Excellent weaponry, firearms as early as 1550's.

Tactics. Were they used as bodyguards for the commanders, elite shock cavalry to smash the enemy when he was 'ready' for the knock-out ?

Keep in mind that Circassian sashkho was a deadly weapon of first strike. Swift and strong, sashkho's left little chances of surviving to those charged with them. Because of this fact, Circassian cavalry should have an extra bonus when charging.

That is a reasonable request.

Circassian regiments proved to be excellent fighters in the numerous Polish-Turkish Wars and remained in the Polish army as the "Petyhorski Horugvi" (Five mountains regiments) until 1795.

True, though not always 'Circassian' units were made of Circassians - the fashion to have crtain units called in certain way in the Commonwealth meant there were 'Cossack', 'Tatar', 'Hungarian', 'Wallachian' and 'German' units sometimes without a single non-Pole in those.
I think that only Scottish infantry in Poland was always formed from local Scots.

As for tactics, they were a lot of different kinds. One that I can remember now was called "Shou Chapse", "A Line of Riders". Enemy cavalry was being lured out of the battlefield by a false retreat so that they were made to break up their ranks and stretch themselves into a line and then the enemy was suddenly charged with sashkho's.

So only the infantry fought in open battles or was the infantry used to attack the enemy lured to pursue the cavalry ?
In general I am interested how important was the infantry for Circassian commanders - some sort of elite, 'cannon fodder' or militia used only in ambushes ?

Also were there any tactics in sieges, were the Circassians besieging anyone at that time ?

In the game I need to determine several things for example how will the Circassians attacking enemy strongholds - any information about siege engines - cannons, mines etc ?


In general we will need to create working roster where we need to know how armed, how used and how numerous are certain units.
It is a matter how the Circassian army will work on the battlefield.
I have shown several rosters and in general I already know for what purpose each units is going to be used.

Circassian battle cries - Ewa! Marje!

So they were mostly Orthodox ? I wonder was that autonomic, local church or a part of larger organisation under the guidiance of Constantinopole patriarch, or maybe someone else ?

I mean how did they see the Catholicism - enemy, friend or just a distant relative ?


Regards Cegorach

[cegorach]

WCB

Cegorach Can you read russian ? if you can, there is a some historical info we can forward about 1570-1700 time frame.

Badly. I can try to read that, but English is the language which makes my work easier.

Also remember that by posting in English you make this thread almost a circassian database - I already told some guys they can learn much from this thread.


It is also possible I will write a text about Circassian military to a Polish history magazine - and if it will be good enough they will print it.
I am not a historian, but I couldn't find anything about circassian army anywhere so this could be the source to be exploited and used to write something.

I am still not sure if I will do so, I have considerable knwledge about the period, but I never wrote anything to any newspaper.

[WCB]

Welcome back Cegorach,

Let us work on a list with answers for you. Few days needed.

About the newspaper and article, it would be great, after all Poland and Circassia use to be allies in some battles and wars. There is always a first time for everything

Units - in general I need the names for those in CIRCASSIAN - I want to avoid English if possible.
So the names should be completelly Circassian - every single word in unit's name should be in this language.

I agree, we will try to get all names to be Circassian.

Finally if POSSIBLE we will need to reconstruct the images of each unit - weaponry, uniforms - everything.

I'm no designer, but we will supply all the pictures that we can, so you guys can create a 3D image fo Circassian warrior. Then when its ready we can take a look and make corrections.

3D models will be based on this image here in PMTW2 and in Ogniem i Mieczem - I cooperate with them and told Alias from their team that this thread will be used to describe circassian military for BOTH mods.

Thats good, Savoy and me started a thread in OiM about Circassia as well, but good thing is taht they read russian, so more info is availible. Hopefully cooperation with them will help to create most acurate MOD.

[cegorach]

I made 3-4 unit rosters for OiM and I am present at their forum, though it will be good for you cause to put as much well written descriptions in English - more readers after all.

[P007]

Hello all,

I am honored to be present at this forum. Special thanks to cegorach who came up with an idea of introducing Circassia as a faction in this great game - it is most the powerfull way of spreading the knowledge about Circassia and Circassians around the globe - and to WCB who invited me to this forum.

I compiled the list of Circassian untis listed above, made it in a hurry, so I'm sorry it isnt as informative as I would like it to be. Some changes and additions to it should be done. I'll try to give answers to all your questions. If I lack knowledge about a particular question i'll contact more knowledgeable people to provide mst accurate information.

Before I proceed any further I want to ask my own question - since modern Circassian uses Cyrilic alphabet, do you want names of units to be in Cyrillic letters or you want us to provide Latin transliteration of Circassian names of units and characters?

I'll try to answer some questions later on today. As for graphic depictions of Circassian weaponry and mail, I think Gedonist's done an excellent job providing picters of all of it. See if we can add more.

[cegorach]

[QUOTE=P007]

Hello all,

Welcome !

I compiled the list of Circassian untis listed above, made it in a hurry, so I'm sorry it isnt as informative as I would like it to be. Some changes and additions to it should be done. I'll try to give answers to all your questions. If I lack knowledge about a particular question i'll contact more knowledgeable people to provide mst accurate information.

Very well.

Before I proceed any further I want to ask my own question - since modern Circassian uses Cyrilic alphabet, do you want names of units to be in Cyrillic letters or you want us to provide Latin transliteration of Circassian names of units and characters?

Latin alphabet - gamers should be able to read the names, even if they will have problems in remembering those.

I'll try to answer some questions later on today. As for graphic depictions of Circassian weaponry and mail, I think Gedonist's done an excellent job providing picters of all of it. See if we can add more.

I agree he did an excellent job, however what I mean is to have one-two images for each unit - this way we will have all the information in one place - no need to search for everything or to ask too many questions.


See here - https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=72382 - in general one image is used to describe one unit.
I have considerable knowledge about almost every single army from the list and only Circassia, India, Georgia and Persia will need more notes describing every unit to some degree (game-wise).




Finally I want to add that in the last release of the MTW1 edition (PMTW 2.0) I want to revise Circassian roster according to the information you all will post HERE.


Especially I need the answer for one question

- which units should appear as more important/interesting - please pick 5 ot 6 - the rest might not appear due to lack of space ( in MTW1 edition - in MTW2 it should be easier - more space).

[P007]

Please remember, ALL units are armed with daggers in addition to their standart weapons.

Circassian for infantery is лъэсыдзэ (tlesidze, tles - walking, dze - army)

Lhukotl (it means "commoner") Infantery therefore would be Lhukotl Tlesidze.
These were used to defend towns and villages, in large battle they were used as "cannon fodder". Possessing a weapon was a must for every Circassian, except for slaves (pshitl) and women. There was a special set of child weapons - smaller copies of real weapons. So even a commoner had to have som sort of weapons, mostly swords made at a local smithy and a round wooden shield. Those commoners that abandoned their peasanthood for search of glory and became wandering knights (see lhukosho raiders) had better weapons since their lives depended on it.

Repatriated Mamelukes (Qakozha Mamyloukher) - Circassians became a part of Middle Eastern Mameluke system as early as X cent. A.D. Since some of them managed to become sultans of Egypt during the Bahri period (1250-1389) they kept bringing in even more of their countrymen into the Mameluke ranks, "buying" them in batches as many as 5000-6000 men from Genoese and Venetian merchants which controlled the entire Black Sea trade until 1475. By 1389 they outnumbered Turkic Mamelukes and seized power in Egypt and Syria until 1517 when Egypt was conquered by Ottoman Turks. XV century authors descibe Circassians having absolute power in Egyptian sultanate, even call it "Circassian State on the banks of the Nile". Of course, the majority of the population being Arabic, hated self-centered Circassian rule and greeted Ottomans as liberators.
After the fall of Circassian Burji (Tower, since Circassian headquarters was situated in a tower of the Cairo citadel) dynasty and execution of the last Circassian sultan Tuman-bay II, some Circassian Mamelukes stayed in Egypt, and by mid-1600's Egypt was again semi-sovereign from Ottoman rule, although now there were all sorts of Mamelukes, Albanian, Georgian, Abazian, Greek, Circassian and even Slavic. Others repatriated to Circassia from Egypt and conteporary authors (Evliya Chelebi, a Turk whose mother was Circassian or Abaza) describe many settlements of repatriated Mamelukes in Circassia up until 1660's. They brought back the "fourussiya" - special Mameluke physical training system.

Repatriated Mamelukes should be armed with Circassian sabres, metal shileds and spears (Circassian - bzhi or pchi, depending on dialect). They also carry small hadcuffs for capturing prisoners. Effecrive against cavalry.

Quote:
Abadzekh Shooters (Abazekhe Shabzawoher) - Circassia was divided in 12 larger provinces and 6 more smaller ones, which later merged with their larger neighbors. Each province spoke their own dialect of Circassian langauge. Abadzekhia was one of them. Circassians have a saying - "Shapsugh (see below) is a cutter, Abadzekh is a marksman". So Abadzekh Shooters are marksmen. One of their tactics was climbing trees in a dense forest and shoot at enemy troops from there. Several barricades in a row in the woods was their favorite tactics, by shooting at enemy and retreating from one barricade to another they'd exhuast the enemy. Also good at defending settlements since they shoot far with their bows (shabza), crossbows (sagyndak) and guns (foch or shkonch)

Shapsugh Infantery (Shapsugh Tlesidze)- Shapsughia is yet another province of Circassia. There was Greater and Lesser Shapsugia, Lesser being at the Black Sea coast from modern Tuapse (by the way it is an authentic Circassian name) to Novorossiisk and the Greater one was in the Transkuban region. Weapons were similar to those of Mamelukes. They were good at hand-to-hand combat so we can assume them being basic Circassian infantery unit with good stamina. "Shapsugh don't like to burn much gunpowder" - is another saying about them.

More answers tomorrow

[Savoy]

Cegorach:

What weaponry did they use ? Were they from Persia or the Ottoman empire?

More exactly that this was returned from Egypt and Syrias warriors or their children. Could return and from Turkey.

Interesting name. Why they were called this way - maybe they lived on the coastline and were in fact some sort of pirates like Cossacks?

They more moved on river riverbed. Particularly they were strong in river coast with bulrush (Kuban and Azov). This was a reconnaissance troops for completion sabotage. Beautifully sail.

Was this tejeley similar to this kind of Russian armour?

This looked like mongolo-tatarian armour from skin .. she beside they were identified "tegeley" (do not know who beside who has adopted name)

Tactics. Were they used as bodyguards for the commanders, elite shock cavalry to smash the enemy when he was 'ready' for the knock-out?

The Commander (Dzepsh) protected (fought near by him) his(its) own werq (werk) and special troops "pshichey" ("bodyguards of the prince").

So only the infantry fought in open battles or was the infantry used to attack the enemy lured to pursue the cavalry ?
In general I am interested how important was the infantry for Circassian commanders - some sort of elite, 'cannon fodder' or militia used only in ambushes?

As militias was used special class circassian - "beygol", which consisted of former not free peasants

I mean how did they see the Catholicism - enemy, friend or just a distant relative?

Formally circassians of that time were considered christians, gradually came the moslem religion (the influence Crimean khanate). The Attitude to both religion beside circassian was neutral, they saved its faith.

[Yinal_the_Great]

Cegorach these new friends are way behind me... I am scared!

I can still answer a few of your question should I continue with my contributions?

- if there is a mistake there is at least someone to correct.

WCB I will PM you - Thanks!

[Yinal_the_Great]

A-)

In general I am interested how important was the infantry for Circassian commanders - some sort of elite, 'cannon fodder' or militia used only in ambushes ?

B-)

Also were there any tactics in sieges, were the Circassians besieging anyone at that time ?



In the game I need to determine several things for example how will the Circassians attacking enemy strongholds - any information about siege engines - cannons, mines etc ?

C-)

So they were mostly Orthodox ? I wonder was that autonomic, local church or a part of larger organisation under the guidiance of Constantinopole patriarch, or maybe someone else ?

I mean how did they see the Catholicism - enemy, friend or just a distant relative ?


Regards Cegorach

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A-) Circassian never had that much manpower so canon fodder would be out of question (not saying it never happened!). Regular Circassian Infantry could cause some serious trouble when fighting in forests or mountains. Good for ambushes!

Still they should have the same fears the other infantry have:
Artilery, A heavy horsecharge in open planes.

B-)Hmm... siege equipment comes mostly from a powerful ally like Russia (when fighting vs Tatars or Ottomans) or Ottomans (vs Russians, Cossacks)
of course also captured guns...
Well I know that the Circassians at times made there own cannons (rarely) but these must have been low quality and very small (light).

Regular stuff: Climbing walls, opening doors from inside, seaking at night very close and suddenly attacking, other explosive equipment (to blow up fort gates for example).

C-) Just want to add: generally, religion (Historically) for Circassians did not play a very important role, unlike some other nations. And I think Evliya Chlebi (a famous Turkish explorer) did mention this when he was visiting Circassia.

He said something along these lines:

- ''They are not devoted Muslims but if you call them infidels they get upset and angry''

Just some stuff I thought no one answered yet.

Please feel free to correct me if I have mistake Adigas.

[P007]

Psikhadze - "Water Dogs Army". (Psi - water, kha - dog, dze - army). I guess my friend Savoy's already answered your questions. I can add that their namee is said to be derived from their practice of using inflated wineskins (fend or shuent) to cross rivers at unexpected places (they didnt need a ford) and thus sneak up on enemy. Ambush and reconaissance is their specialty.


Ubykh Infantery - Ubykhia is yet another Black Sea coastal prvince of Circassia at the border of Abkhazia. Ubykh and Kabardian (another region, see below) leaders had absolute power over their troops in battles and unlike other Circassian tribes could punish even execute a soldier for lack of discipline or routing from battlefield. Living in mountaneous area, cavalry wasnt Ubykhs relied on in their warfare. On contrary, they managed to develop a strong infantery unit, called wunaru, which means "building demolishers". These were truly tireless, mountains taught them to walk far in any terrain, run real fast. Their weapons were usual daggers, sashkho's (Circassian sabres) and guns, since Turkish presence in the Black Sea region made it easy to acquire gunpowder. I'll try ro provide pictures to illustrate each type of unit.

2) Cavalry in Circassian is shuudze, shu - horseman, dze - army.

Lhukosho Raiders - Lhukosho means peasant rider. Tejeley or tenjeley was a short jacket made of thick leather that protected from missile fire but could really help in a had-to-hand sword fight.

Beslen-Wark Cavalry - As I've already said, some Circassians (Ubykh, shapsygh, abadzekh) lived in the mountains. They had similar customs and closer related dialects. Since 1790's they also had a revolution and got rid of their nobles (wark) and lived under a "democratic" rule, electing their own leaders and judges. Other Circassians (Kabardian, Belseney, Temirgoy, Bjedough, Hatoukway and others) lived in plains. They had strictly aristocratic type of government, on top of which were the pshi (princes), the royal family, all of them being descendants of Yinal or Inal the Great, a Circassian prince who repatriated from Egypt and united all Circassians into one single state. He died in 1427. So the pshi of all Circassian provinces considered themselves to be relatives and they are referred to as the Inalids.

Then there were nobles (wark) of 4 ranks, tlakotlesh (most influential, only a few families belonged to this rank), dizhinugho(means silver-plated, they were second best), beslen-wark (these were vassals of pshi and formed the backbone of Circassian cavalry) and the wark-shaotlighusa (lowest in nobility, rarely owned a village, were most numerous, could be vassals to any other warks, some of them were ex-commoners).

Beslen-wark cavalry, as other Circassian cavalry, used their missiles before charge to soften the enemy. They had leather armor with metal stripes and better quality than lhukosho swords and sabres.

Bjedough (or Temirgoy) Wark Cavalry - Bjedoughia and Temirgoy were neighboring Circassian provinces ruled by Inalid princes. They had light chain armor and weapons similar to other wark cavalry.

Kabardian Armoured Wark Cavalry (Kabardey Afe-Jane Wark Shuudze) - these were the best of the best, coming from Eastern Circassian province of Kabardia (Kabardey). Rich plains of the Kuma and Terek River made these lands a desired prize for every invader since ancient times. With no natural defences, like high mountains, Kabardian Circassians had to develop the best military orgainzation, weaponry and ammunition in order to survive. That they did. They grew their own special Kabardian horse breed (See here http://kabardians.com/), and horses later went through a training of their own, and were taught to bite enemy horses, hit enemy horses with their chest in order to overthrow enemy riders, not be scared of loud firearms shots, etc. Kabardian Circassians imposed strict discipline in their ranks. Weapons wer most valued in this region, and heaviest Circassian chail mail was produced here. It was so good that even in 1830's Russian bullets could pierce them. Kabardian sashkhos- sabres were thin (one could wrap a sabre like that around his waist), sharp (it cut a hair lying in water) and most durable. Kabardian noblemen had both long guns and pistols in addition to their complex bows (glued together from bones, wood and other material) to decimate enemy ranks before a powerful charge. One of the tactics they used to implement was this - they tied together their saddles by strong ropes and smash the enemy flank like a lava. Thus they simplu cut off the entire flank. Once they did that, they cut the ropes with their sashkho's and slaughter the overwhelmed enemy.

As you can see, infantery was inmoprant to those Circassians who lived in the mountains, and was anly a cannon fodder and auxilia unit for Circassians of plains.

3) Sieges.

Circassians stormed Bakhchi-saray, the capital of Crimean Khanate in early 1500's. They captured Astrakhan from Astrakhan Horde Tatars twice - in 1532 and 1534. In 1574 they sacked Trabzon in Northern Turkey. during Russian-Circassian War 1763-1864 they captured Russian fortresses many times.
Early siege tactics were primitive - ladders, ropes, night attacks, spies who opened the gates. Later Circassians used a special device - a mantlet in Circassian called Shaipkhot (bullet-catcher), which was a large shield made of logs with dirt and stone between them, mounted on wooden wheels or a wheeled carriage and protected several approaching to the walls soldiers. Once at enemy walls, they used explosives to blow up enemy defences and then Wark cavalry would rush in and turn the place into a bloodbath.

Cannons were rarely used, since they werent too dependable and there wernt too amny people who could operate a cannon. For exmaple, in the later stages of Russian-Circassian War, from 1830's Polish soldiers who were sent to fight Circassians as a punishment for their participation in the Polish uprising of 1830 and then fled to Circassians to fight against Russians, manned the Circassian artillery. We have written reports of XVIII century princely strongholds with light cannons on the walls, though, used for defence.

4) Religion. Circassians of the XIV-XV century were Pagans with some traces of Orthodox Christianity in the East and Catholicism in the West. Genoese and Venetian presence in the region until 1475 ensured intermarriages and Catholic proseletism. There even was a Circassian catholic Archbishop in 1330's called Joann de Zichi. On another hand, Emperor Justinian of Byzantia is said to bring Orthodox Christianity to Circassia as early as VI century AD. With mamelukes returning from Egypt and Turksish conquests Islam started to spread and by XVI century all pshi and nobles were converted to Islam, especially Eastern ones. Commoners remained mixed pagan-christian-muslim until XVIII century. Only at later stages of Russian-Circassian war, in 1840-1850's Western Circassians completely gave up their druidic practices and adopted Islam.

Since Circassians felt indifferent towards religion, preferring their own Adyghe Habze (Circassian Common Law), niether Orthodox, nor Catholicism, nor Islam (the latter - until Russian-Circassian war began in 1763) didnt play significant role in the region. Circassians were tolerant to any religion, since it was earthly deeds of knighthood and valor that occupied their minds, not the thoughts about the afterlife.

Hope the answers will be useful. Ask for more info if needed.

[P007]

Cegorach these new friends are way behind me... I am scared! I can still answer a few of your question should I continue with my contributions?

Please stay and continue your contribution, si qwesh! You kept the fire burning in this thread, without you the topic could have faded away!

A few things for you, I thought you might be interested.

Dzhigit (Dzhiket) word is essentially Georgian. There was a tribe of Abaza people at the Black Sea coast who lived in the modern town of Adler area, who called themselves "Sadz". They were ruled by Gech (Gechba) princely family. These were fierce warriors and famous pirates. Western Georgia was their target of raids, Georgians called the Sadz people "Dzhiket". So fierce and fearless were this people that Georgians started calling that name any brave warrior. Russians adopted that word after Georgians and spread it across the Caucasus.

If you would like to see Dzhikets in the game, they should be a separate infantery unit called Sadz (Dzhiket) Pirates (Sadz Khydze, khy - sea, dze - army).

About cannon fodder. The population of the pre-war (1763) Circassia couldnt be any less than 2 million, perhaps even more, so there was a place for "cannon fodder". One of the tactics that coastal Circassians used against Russian fortresses was simply carrying fighters as second rider by horses up to enemy walls and then climbing them with ladders. Given that the Russians had cannons loaded with shrapnel, these attacs were at the verge of being suicidal and Circassians suffered heavy casualties. Because of that fact such attacks were carried out only when intelligence reports showed that an attack like that will be successful.

[WCB]

P007, finally you showed up brother. I'm glad to see you here.

Cegorach, from the answers that P007 gave you, hopefully you can make descision in which troops to add to the game.
If you did so, maybe you can let us know so we will look for images or maybe even ask one of our friends to DRAW (roughly)
useing a description in books. Since there are not a lot of images of Circassians of that time 1570-1700, we need to make up for it.


Ynal_the _Great, of course we need your input in this. You are the one who knows the game, none of us are gaimers. So by useing our information you can apply it to the game itself with Cegorach.

[cegorach]

I will have some questions later. I will need to think about those first.

For images you can combine the existing ones e.g. use an image and add that 'they should use this *another image* kind of armour and this *image* weapon' and so on.

This is accurate enough to me.


Also if you want a historical battle to be added to the mod later you can start digging for data, especially the map of the battlefield.

[cegorach]

I am suprised by the single fact that according to your descriptions Circassian cavalry didn't use spears or lances - is it so obvious that you didn't mention it ?
Or perhaps the use of lance was limited to a certain part of warriors - those Petyhorcy present in Poland-Lithuanian did use lances, actually were nown for that.