Maybe spears (or something similiar), but I never heard that Circassians used Lances ?!?
That's Polish area of expertise :P
Re: Circassia
Maybe spears (or something similiar), but I never heard that Circassians used Lances ?!?
That's Polish area of expertise :P
Re: Circassia
cegorach
Circassian cavalry did not heavily rely on spears, and you're not the only one to be surprised. In 1717 a group of Circassian mercenaries and Cossacks headed by Adyghe pshi (prince) Alexander Bekovich-Cherkasski (his Circassian name was Bechmirza Dawlet-Geri) recieved a task from Peter I of Russia to undertake an expedition into the Central Asian shore of the Capsian Sea to explore that area. They were attacked by large numbers of spear armed cavalry of Khiva Sultanate. As one of the Cossacks put it, "then we charged them the Kabardian way and made them leave their spears scattered across the battle field". Unfortunately I dont know the exact "Kabardian way" tactic, but I'll try to find out more. My idea is that they used the sashkho charge after firing a powerful volley at the enemy.
As for lances, Cossacks are more known for using them than Circassians. But even Cossacks gave up using lances against Circassians, with the following explanation: Lances are good against poorly traines cavalry only, whereas Circassians were trained to dodge the the first blow and immideatly get to the enemy at a sashkho strike distance; then the lance became not only useless but acctually hampering.
Re: Circassia
Hmm actually it depends what tactics are used. Poorly trained or poorly formed lancers are iefficient except against worse enemy cavalry, however well trained, disciplined and properly formed lancers can be the most devastating cavalry to face e.g. Polish Winged Hussars.
Cossacks do not represent the highest level of lancer cavalry.
I agree however that circassian cavalry had superb riders - even in 1812 Polish lancers said that only the caucasian cavalry makes the use of a lance inefficient.
Re: Circassia
OK. Another thing to research and propose.
HISTORICAL HEROES
Name and surname of a leader/priest/assassin/spy + his portrait (if possible) and some description to judge his
- command abilities
( 3 for superb commander of a small force, 7 for legendary leaders of entire armies)
- piety/lack of it
- acumen/governing skills
- dread - how feared he wa for his merciless character
- loyalty - to the country, to the higher commanders
Remember - ONLY between 1570 and 1700 (born or still alive)
Here are Inal's proposals
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
and OFFICE TITLES and FAMOUS ITEMS
Honorary ranks, given to commanders/other leaders AND THEIR INFLUENCE
which affects various stats and how of course...
again earlier Inal's proposals
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
OK should be clear this way.
Re: Circassia
If there was a list of "OFFICE TITLES and FAMOUS ITEMS" of existing factions I could come up with Circassian equivalents... As for Historical Heroes and such I can refer you to the list of Rulers of Eastern Circassia (Kabardia) (will translate if needed)
Inal (около 1427-1453) бывал в Египте , объеденил всех адыгов и абхазо-абазин. Воевал с Мингрелией,
Tobyla Inal(1453-1465)
Janjhot Tobyle (1465-1483)
Inarmas Tobyle (1483-1498)
Beslan Jankhot (1498-1525) – ввел судопроизводство в каждом селении в Кабарде
Idar Inarmas (1525-1540) проиграл в борьбе двоюродным братьям Беслану и Талостану.
Ketouko Belsan(1540-1554)
Temrouko Idar(1554-1572) тот самый
Pshe'apshoko Ketouko (1572-1578) – ярый враг Темрюка, неоднократно воевал с войсками Ивана Грозного; был ориентирован на укрепление кабардинской государственности, избегая влияния и России, и Турции.
Kamboulat Idar (1578-1589) старался поддерживать отношения с Москвой, следовал заветам совего старшего брата Темрюка;
1589 – Aslanbek Pshe'apshoko (died same 1589), Jansokh Pshe'apshoko (supported by Mowcow, failed); Country in discord;
Ketouko Pshe'apshoko(1589-1616) very weak, real rulers his brother Kazi (killed 1615) and cousin Sholokh Tapsaroko (killed 1616).
Koudenet Kamboulat (1616-1624) – последний потомок Идара, который был пщышхуэ (уалий)
Alegouko Shogenouko (1624-1653) Один из самых великих уалиев в истории Кабарды, внук Пшеапшоко.
Hatakshoko Kazi (1653-1672). Основатель рода князей Атажукиных
Misost Kazi(1672-1695) – основатель рода Мисостовых
Kourgoko Hatakshoko (1695-1708) – Когда крымца пришли в Кабарду 1708 и затребовали непомерную дань, Кургоко пошел на переговоры, чтобы оттянуть время, сказав, что они сразу не упеют собрать парней и девушек для дани. Крымский паша Алегот по прозвищу Жирный приказал ему снять шапку, выбил свою трубку с тлеющим табаком о бритую голову Кургоко, и дал ему два дня на сборы. Через два дня Кургоко разбил крымское войско у горы Канжал, при этом убито свыше 40 000. Труп Алегота – паши сбросили в реку.
Islam Misost (1708-1732). Его родная сестра была замужем за наследником крымского хана, политика была соответствующая, хотя это не помешало крымцам регулярно нападать на Кабарду. В 1720 году в Кабарде в походе убит крымский хан.
Tatarkhan Bekmirza (1732-1736) должны были избрать Асланбека Кайтуко, но не избрали, из-за чего он обиделся и ушел в Крым. Пять лет резни. После 1737 года изгнан из Кабарды Асланбеком Кайтуко. Разделение Кабарды на Кашкатаускую и Баксанскую партии.
Aslanbek Ketouko (1737-1746), the Great прозванный Великим. В молодости вел переговоры о возобновлении кабардино-русских отношений с Петром I по борьбе с Крымом, при личной встрече в Дагестане. Петр пообещал помочь, но никакой помощи не дал. Его советником был Казаноко Жабаги. А.К, принадлежит известное выражение – «Между этими двумя морями (Черным и Каспийским) и одному князю тесно». Получается, он идеолог великочеркесского шовинизма . Легендарная личность в фольклоре абазин, осетин, карачай-балкарцев.
Batoko Jamboulat (1746-1749) Распри в Кабарде.
Bamat Kourgoko (1749-1762) Распри в Кабарде. Фактически, был правителем только в Баксанской партии. В Кашкатауской в это же время старшим был Джамбулат Кайтуко.
Kasey Hatakshoko (1762-1773) При нем началась Русско-Кавказская война. Краткосрочное перемирие в Кабарде, новые распри.
Jankhot Tatarkhan (1173-1785) Старался лавировать между сторонниками независимости и русской императрицей Екатериной II. В 1774 году при штурме восставшими русской крепости Наурской убит его родной брат Кургоко (сражался на стороне восставших). Крупнейшие столкновения 1778-1779 года кабардинцев во главе с сыном Асланбека Кайтуко – Хамырзой – с русскими войсками во главе с ген. Якоби, потерян цвет кабардинского дворянства в битве на острове Кетуко на Малке (октябрь 1779). Ж.Т. не принимал участие в боях. Потеря северной Кабарды вплоть до реки Малка.
Misost Bamat (1785-1793) Один из первых князей, оказавших вооруженное сопротивление российской агрессии (Эшкаконская битва 1768 г.). Его избрание свидетельствовало о перемене в умах кабардинских князей. Поддерживает восстание Шейха Мансура в Чечне 1785-1788. Под конец жизни смирился с
Interregnum (1793-1809) Кто был в этот период валием в Б. Кабарде, я не знаю (((. Но это период роста освободительного движения, когда главную роль играл Адиль – Гирей Хатахшоко (Атажукин). Он и главный эфендий Кабарды Исхак Абук вели борьбу с насаждаемыми русскими властями т.н. родовыми судами. Это был период т.н. шариатского движения (шариатский суд был независим от русской администрации). В конце концов, после кровавых экспедиций Глазенапа и Цицианова в 1804-1805, после чумы и смерти от этой болезни Адиль-Гирея и Исхака, в Кабарде повсеместно было введено шариатское управление.
Hatokshoko Hatokshoko (1809) Умер вскоре после избрания, накануне нового восстания
Koushuk Jankhot (1809-1822). Last independent ruler of Kabardia, deposed by Russian General Yermolov. Избран вместе с А.Атажукиным, чтобы избежать споров о том, с какой стороны (Баксанской или Кашкатауской) будет следующий уалий. Трагическая личность. Потерял трех из четырех сыновей в войнах с Россией, последний – Джамбулат – был убит на его глазах в крепости Нальчик 1825. Прокламацией Ермолова 1822 лишен независимости в управлении Кабардой. Умер 1829.
Re: Circassia
Cegorach,
Asyou know we are working with mod builders from "Ognem i Mechem" at the same time. Do you guys communicate on daily bases ?
Just want to make sure that noone is doing double work and we all know what needs to be done and what stage it is on.
Re: Circassia
cegorach,
Dont think that we forgot about you, its just the language barier that some members of our organisation have when speaking English.
AS you know more information is availible in russian.
I would like to copy the images from other forum so you have a clue what we talk about.
Lhukotl Infantery therefore would be Lhukotl Tlesidze.
These were used to defend towns and villages, in large battle they were used as "cannon fodder". Possessing a weapon was a must for every Circassian, except for slaves (pshitl) and women. There was a special set of child weapons - smaller copies of real weapons. So even a commoner had to have som sort of weapons, mostly swords made at a local smithy and a round wooden shield. Those commoners that abandoned their peasanthood for search of glory and became wandering knights (see lhukosho raiders) had better weapons since their lives depended on it.
Repatriated Mamelukes (Qakozha Mamyloukher) - Circassians became a part of Middle Eastern Mameluke system as early as X cent. A.D. Since some of them managed to become sultans of Egypt during the Bahri period (1250-1389) they kept bringing in even more of their countrymen into the Mameluke ranks, "buying" them in batches as many as 5000-6000 men from Genoese and Venetian merchants which controlled the entire Black Sea trade until 1475. By 1389 they outnumbered Turkic Mamelukes and seized power in Egypt and Syria until 1517 when Egypt was conquered by Ottoman Turks. XV century authors descibe Circassians having absolute power in Egyptian sultanate, even call it "Circassian State on the banks of the Nile". Of course, the majority of the population being Arabic, hated self-centered Circassian rule and greeted Ottomans as liberators.
After the fall of Circassian Burji (Tower, since Circassian headquarters was situated in a tower of the Cairo citadel) dynasty and execution of the last Circassian sultan Tuman-bay II, some Circassian Mamelukes stayed in Egypt, and by mid-1600's Egypt was again semi-sovereign from Ottoman rule, although now there were all sorts of Mamelukes, Albanian, Georgian, Abazian, Greek, Circassian and even Slavic. Others repatriated to Circassia from Egypt and conteporary authors (Evliya Chelebi, a Turk whose mother was Circassian or Abaza) describe many settlements of repatriated Mamelukes in Circassia up until 1660's. They brought back the "fourussiya" - special Mameluke physical training system.
Repatriated Mamelukes should be armed with Circassian sabres, metal shileds and spears (Circassian - bzhi or pchi, depending on dialect). They also carry small hadcuffs for capturing prisoners. Effecrive against cavalry.
Abadzekh Shooters (Abazekhe Shabzawoher) - Circassia was divided in 12 larger provinces and 6 more smaller ones, which later merged with their larger neighbors. Each province spoke their own dialect of Circassian langauge. Abadzekhia was one of them. Circassians have a saying - "Shapsugh (see below) is a cutter, Abadzekh is a marksman". So Abadzekh Shooters are marksmen. One of their tactics was climbing trees in a dense forest and shoot at enemy troops from there. Several barricades in a row in the woods was their favorite tactics, by shooting at enemy and retreating from one barricade to another they'd exhuast the enemy. Also good at defending settlements since they shoot far with their bows (shabza), crossbows (sagyndak) and guns (foch or shkonch)
The Warrior in the MIDDLE is Abadzekh Shooter
Shapsugh Infantery (Shapsugh Tlesidze)- Shapsughia is yet another province of Circassia. There was Greater and Lesser Shapsugia, Lesser being at the Black Sea coast from modern Tuapse (by the way it is an authentic Circassian name) to Novorossiisk and the Greater one was in the Transkuban region. Weapons were similar to those of Mamelukes. They were good at hand-to-hand combat so we can assume them being basic Circassian infantery unit with good stamina. "Shapsugh don't like to burn much gunpowder" - is another saying about them.
Psikhadze - "Water Dogs Army". (Psi - water, kha - dog, dze - army). I guess my friend Savoy's already answered your questions. I can add that their namee is said to be derived from their practice of using inflated wineskins (fend or shuent) to cross rivers at unexpected places (they didnt need a ford) and thus sneak up on enemy. Ambush and reconaissance is their specialty.
Ubykh Infantery - Ubykhia is yet another Black Sea coastal prvince of Circassia at the border of Abkhazia. Ubykh and Kabardian (another region, see below) leaders had absolute power over their troops in battles and unlike other Circassian tribes could punish even execute a soldier for lack of discipline or routing from battlefield. Living in mountaneous area, cavalry wasnt Ubykhs relied on in their warfare. On contrary, they managed to develop a strong infantery unit, called wunaru, which means "building demolishers". These were truly tireless, mountains taught them to walk far in any terrain, run real fast. Their weapons were usual daggers, sashkho's (Circassian sabres) and guns, since Turkish presence in the Black Sea region made it easy to acquire gunpowder. I'll try ro provide pictures to illustrate each type of unit.
These illustrations are something that can be used as a base for the units in the game, although some additions and corrections must be done, especially for armor and weapons.
Re: Circassia
I am checking the topic in the OiM forum every two-three days so no worries, but still posting someinformation right here is for your own good.
I used this thread as the database and recommended it to some people so it is always good to allow english readers to learn more about Circassia.
I am sure you will agree.
Re: Circassia
2) Cavalry in Circassian is shuudze, shu - horseman, dze - army.
Lhukosho Raiders - Lhukosho means peasant rider. Tejeley or tenjeley was a short jacket made of thick leather that protected from missile fire but could really help in a had-to-hand sword fight.
**********
Beslen-Wark Cavalry - as other Circassian cavalry, used their missiles before charge to soften the enemy. They had leather armor with metal stripes and better quality than lhukosho swords and sabres.
**********
Bjedough (or Temirgoy) Wark Cavalry - Bjedoughia and Temirgoy were neighboring Circassian provinces ruled by Inalid princes. They had light chain armor and weapons similar to other wark cavalry. More green-gray armor for mountain, forest landscape
Kabardian Armoured Wark Cavalry (Kabardey Afe-Jane Wark Shuudze) - these were the best of the best, coming from Eastern Circassian province of Kabardia (Kabardey). Rich plains of the Kuma and Terek River made these lands a desired prize for every invader since ancient times. With no natural defences, like high mountains, Kabardian Circassians had to develop the best military orgainzation, weaponry and ammunition in order to survive. That they did. They grew their own special Kabardian horse breed (See here http://kabardians.com/), and horses later went through a training of their own, and were taught to bite enemy horses, hit enemy horses with their chest in order to overthrow enemy riders, not be scared of loud firearms shots, etc. Kabardian Circassians imposed strict discipline in their ranks. Weapons wer most valued in this region, and heaviest Circassian chail mail was produced here. It was so good that even in 1830's Russian bullets could pierce them. Kabardian sashkhos- sabres were thin (one could wrap a sabre like that around his waist), sharp (it cut a hair lying in water) and most durable. Kabardian noblemen had both long guns and pistols in addition to their complex bows (glued together from bones, wood and other material) to decimate enemy ranks before a powerful charge. One of the tactics they used to implement was this - they tied together their saddles by strong ropes and smash the enemy flank like a lava. Thus they simplu cut off the entire flank. Once they did that, they cut the ropes with their sashkho's and slaughter the overwhelmed enemy.
Circassian Prince
Tlekotlesh- royals of 1st rank
******************
So, lets come to a conclussion about colors on Circassian Cavalery.
Lhukosho Raiders- will be brown-grey color, simple armor, brown horse.
Beslen-Wark Cavalry - Will be Blue-silver armor, grey brown horse, Better firhting next to water.
Bjedough (or Temirgoy) Wark Cavalry- will have green-silver armor, better fighting in mountain and forest areas. grey -greenish horse.
Kabardian Armoured Wark Cavalry (Kabardey Afe-Jane Wark Shuudze)- will have RED-silver armor, Best weapons, Black horse.
Additional
I would like to show you picture of Kabardian (Circassian) horse bread. It was very known for its strengh and bravery on battlefield. Kabardian horse was trained to fight the enemy, bite enemies horse, kill enemy with chest strikes and so on.
Bet horse for mountains and Caucasus labdscape.
Mixed with English horse, had new bread Anglo-Kabardian hourse, one of most expensive horses in the world.
http://www.adygaunion.us/gallery/thu...s.php?album=77
Anglo-Kabardian horse
Circassian horses had a mark on back left leg, indicating their owner. That mark was a family sign of the warrior or rider. YOu can see these indications on a lot of images of Circassian horses.
Circassian Saddle
Royalty Saddle- red color indicates royalty.
******************
Additional Mameluk weapons
Re: Circassia
Great Job!
Re: Circassia
We have to keep up on both sides, or cegorash will get madOriginally Posted by P007
Great Job!
Re: Circassia
I already am mad
I am visiting OiM forum often but still it is useful to have it right here anyway. Thanks guys !
Ehh lately I am spending too much time before computerand the worse is it has hardly anything in common with modding...
Re: Circassia
http://www.unpo.org/member_profile.php?id=18
site on general info on circassias history
Re: Circassia
Ingushian (not Circassian) Castle - Ingushland (XVII c) incorporated in Kabardey (East-Circassian kingdom).
Last edited by Gedonist; 04-01-2007 at 11:41.
Re: Circassia
hey everyone ive been reading at this forum and i want to say goodwork and thanks for doing all those searches for this mode
myself i am adyghe if you want help at anything you can ask me
Re: Circassia
Dzhigit (Dzhiket) word is essentially Georgian. There was a tribe of Abaza people at the Black Sea coast who lived in the modern town of Adler area, who called themselves "Sadz". They were ruled by Gech (Gechba) princely family. These were fierce warriors and famous pirates. Western Georgia was their target of raids, Georgians called the Sadz people "Dzhiket". So fierce and fearless were this people that Georgians started calling that name any brave warrior. Russians adopted that word after Georgians and spread it across the Caucasus.
First of all,Dzhiketi(Jiqeti in Georgian) is geographical toponhym,so it can't be the name of the unit.this word means ,,country of jiqs",so you can use name Jiqs.Secondly,Jiqs were independent people,so this region must be rebel's faction,were able to hire Jiq pirates,as mercenaries
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