Eles into Europe

**KrooK** · 11-17-2006, 01:49

I have just read book about polish-turkish war into 1620 - 1621.
Into 1621 great turkish army attacked Poland (about 120.000), and they bring even elephants there. I think it was last using eles at war into Europe. Does anybody know newest example?

**Watchman** · 11-17-2006, 11:44

The Ottomans were again around Vienna at a later point of the same century, so they may have had a few there too.

Although I've read the big animals were usually more useful for construction work, particularly building bridges. For combat use one wonders if they aren't a wee bit too attractive targets for artillery...

**The Wizard** · 11-17-2006, 15:14

They could survive the Eastern/Central European winter?

**Kralizec** · 11-17-2006, 15:22

Hannibal took a bunch of them across the Alps. Most of them died, but that's because it's way colder up there. Maybe they could survive an average winter if the handlers take proper care of them.

**Watchman** · 11-17-2006, 15:26

Originally Posted by Kralizec

Hannibal took a bunch of them across the Alps. Most of them died, but that's because it's way colder up there. Maybe they could survive an average winter if the handlers take proper care of them.

Of Hannibal's elephants something like a quarter survived the trek over the Alps. By the end of the next winter, there was exactly one left alive - and I don't think combat casualties featured heavily in the reason.

Obviously the beasts didn't feature too heavily in his Italian operations, although one imagines they made a major impression on the assorted Celts along the way there.

**The Wizard** · 11-17-2006, 15:29

I have read that most of Hannibal's elephants (in one go, mind) died when he crossed the Appenines, lower than the Alps but more rugged.

Anyways, your explanation sounds about right, Watchman. But those facts given, what are the chances that these beasts could be found in any European adventures of the Ottomans? The chance seems very slim to me.

**Kralizec** · 11-17-2006, 15:38

I thought that Hannibal fought with elephants in every Italian battle except Cannae? By then they had all certainly died.

Though I still think it's possible, I'm cynical about it. Were they African or Indian elephants? For the last one they'd have to go all the way to...well, India since the elephant population in the middle east had died out already in Roman times...
It would be logistically inpractical, and the shock value of a handful of them in this time probably wasn't very high.

EDIT: to clarify, by African I mean the African forest elephants, not the savannah dwellers.

**Watchman** · 11-17-2006, 15:22

Given that the rest of the Ottoman army couldn't, I doubt it.

For the most part major operations were restricted to the warmer seasons, and armies finding themselves still in siege camps when the snow came could usually consider themselves lucky if they got home with a fraction of their men still alive. Which was one of the big headaches for the Ottomans when it came to campaigning in Central Europe - Paris is closer to Vienna than Istanbul (the main Ottoman staging and muster area) as the bird flies, and the extremely inconvenient geography of the Balkans along the way didn't help one bit. By the time the Ottoman main army reached the actual front they could consider it a rare boon if there was still as much as half of the viable campaign season left...

And this with the leanest, meanest logistical and adminstrational apparatus of the period. Small wonder the ability of Europeans to invade Ottoman territory beyond the outermost crust of allies and client states was minimal.