Netherlands law proposed to ban wearing burkas in public?

[Aenlic]

What's up with this, my Dutch friends?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe....ap/index.html

Is there, as the article says, a ban on religious discrimination in the Dutch constitution? Burkas like the type being outlawed are worn for religious reasons. It certainly seems a clear-cut case of religious discrimination to me.

The stated reasons don't seem to make much sense.

"From a security standpoint, people should always be recognizable and from the standpoint of integration, we think people should be able to communicate with one another,' Verdonk told national broadcaster NOS.

From a security standpoint, does this mean the Dutch plan on making it illegal for people to wear costumes for costume parties in public, use too much makeup, or grow beards too?

From an integration standpoint, how does a burka prevent one from communicating freely?

[Meneldil]

It's about time the dutch pass such a law.

From an integration standpoint, how does a burka prevent one from communicating freely?

Women who wear burkas will simply not integrate either because
a) they don't want to integrate
b) they can't integrate

It is seriously that simple. In France, most women who wear Burka's barely speak french, and if they do, I'll sure as hell never ever think about even telling them "Hello", "Thanks" or "Have a good day".

Edit : And I'm speaking about the liberal kind of Burka, not the Afghanistan "we'll burn you if we see a part of your skin" kind of Burka. Hopefully, we do not have to see such a crap in France at the moment.

[yesdachi]

The burka is a barrier that stifles integration but it is something that should not be regulated by a law.

The security excuse is lame.

[Moros]

a bruka isn't that women freindly either if you ask me. (In Belgium the same law is already passed, if I'm not mistaken.) It's a symbol of women's oppression. You may say that a lot wear it out of their own will, still this an oppinion they got forced on. They think it's normal because everybody from their envirnment finds it normal, they are raised this way,... Also how can they ever lead a life outside the house wearing a burka? They can't. So they are in fact almost imprisoned at home. And if you think you can't force them o r think forcing this is wrong. Then why can't kids drink, is it forbidden to take drugs,... No, the burka isn't a religious thing. I can't recall that it is in the Saria (except maybe an extreme one, one that allows the execution of young girls because they were raped.) or Koran. It's something some wacko fundamentalists made up to keep women from all will to stand up against the oppression. With the excuse that they otherwise might attract other men. And even if this would be the only real reason it's still against human rights if you ask me. Denying someone the freedom of marrying who they want, to fall in love with who they want or just make freind with someone else. Wearing normal headthingys (what's the english name?) okay, but wearing a symbol of oppression, or wearing a prison.?

[Adrian II]

The security excuse is lame.

It is not. In the past the Dutch have enacted laws against face-covering in specific circumstances such as demonstrations and other situations with increased security risks. The background to this was an increasing number of violent demonstrations c.q. violent incidents during demonstrations. The perpetrators were often able to avoid prosecution by wearing balaclavas, Palestinian headscarves, etcerera.

The background to the new law is the phenomenon that Muslim women are now actively participating in terrorist plots in The Netherlands, i.e. acts that are not planned or even committed in broad daylight. They are also engaged in forging indentity papers. If you are looking for the major concern behind this proposed law, it is right there.

For years, we used to give Muslim women a break with regard to passport photos; officially, a Dutch passport photo must be a frontal shot showing the entire face including both ears. Muslim women were allowed to use passport photos in which they wore headscarves. No more.

[Xiahou]

I can't agree with any such law. People should be free to wear what they want (so long as it's decent). Asking someone to remove their mask for a photo ID, ect. makes perfect sense and is quite reasonable, but criminalizing them outright goes too far.

[Adrian II]

Asking someone to remove their mask for a photo ID, ect. makes perfect sense and is quite reasonable, but criminalizing them outright goes too far.

The proposed law does not criminalise people. It merely proscribes a certain behaviour in public.

[Reenk Roink]

From article:

"This is a big law for a small problem," he said. Tonca estimated that as few as 30 women in the Netherlands wear a burqa and said the proposed law could be unconstitutional if it is interpreted as targeting Muslims.

30 people? Is it even neccessary?

[Adrian II]

The stated reasons don't seem to make much sense.

They make a lot of sense. The main thrust, as stated, is that "clothing that covers the entire face in public places" shall be outlawed. The rest of the garment and its various functions are untouched. Make-up, masks and beards that render the face unrecognisable will also be forbidden, except on Carnivals and similar temporary occasions.

From an integration standpoint, how does a burka prevent one from communicating freely?

Vou aw vwoking, mo?

[Scurvy]

well i think it's a bad law.... i honestly dont think a burkha (as long as it allows eye contact) doesnt prevent communication or integratoion, as long as they can talk they can communicate, and as long as they can communicate they can integrate. It's only people prejudices that stifle integration, and although the burkha becomes a symbol of this, it is nothing more than clothing.

is it oppresive? I certainly dont think a non eye covering headress (lacking my terminology here somewhat) is...

I actually think the security argument is far stronger, if someone can't be identified (as with hoodies) then they become a problem for the police.

[Ice]

Personally I could care less for the following reasons:

A) I don't live in Holland
B) I never wear a burka, beard, mask etc.

I really wouldn't have a problem banning it.

[JimBob]

Other forms of face coverings, such as helmets with visors that obscure the face, would also be covered by a legal ban.

Seems it is a ban on face covering, which though I dislike am not completely opposed to it. This still leaves the traditional cloak and scarf, the only thing taken away is the veil. And it does not say "Burqas are banned" but "Face covering" so they are not attacking a religion.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6159046.stm

[Stig]

Well I live in Holland but can't be bothered really.

But there is one thing, if you want to live here adapt, this is Holland, not Marocco, might sound hard, but it's the truth

[GoreBag]

I heard about a case in Florida while I was still in high school where a woman who already had a criminal record became a Muslim and refused to remove her burkha for any given reason, including photos for things like her driver's license because it was against her religion. My immediate thought was that she was a criminal and therefore, sucks to her religion.

In any case, the law has some merit, but come on. If someone doesn't want to show their face in public, forcing them to is asinine. If the person in question is an established criminal, then there's some logic to it. Besides, it's against my religion not to have a beard.

[KukriKhan]

They make a lot of sense. The main thrust, as stated, is that "clothing that covers the entire face in public places" shall be outlawed. The rest of the garment and its various functions are untouched. Make-up, masks and beards that render the face unrecognisable will also be forbidden,...

Uh-oh. I guess neither Gregoshi nor Iwill be travelling to Amsterdam anytime soon.

Signed,

Old bearded guy

[Kralizec]

I'm inclined to support this measure, for reasons already stated.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

yes, I'm lazy. And it's getting late here.

[Shahed]

What's up with this, my Dutch friends?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe....ap/index.html

Is there, as the article says, a ban on religious discrimination in the Dutch constitution? Burkas like the type being outlawed are worn for religious reasons. It certainly seems a clear-cut case of religious discrimination to me.

The stated reasons don't seem to make much sense.



From a security standpoint, does this mean the Dutch plan on making it illegal for people to wear costumes for costume parties in public, use too much makeup, or grow beards too?

From an integration standpoint, how does a burka prevent one from communicating freely?

Fighting percieved fascism with legal fascism. Feeding the flames of intolerance with more intolerance.

If anyone wants to wear a burka, an anal plug, mini skirts, or whatever or their wives do, this is not the business of the state. Period.

The post right after yours is a brilliant example of bigotism and dicrimination, where the poster even declares he won't treat women wearing a burka the same as other women. Why ? because they live differently from you ?

The problem of assimilation is a problem of the state as much as it is a problem of individuals in society. The state has to do more for integration just as much as migrants do, just as much as natives do. If you treat Satanic (members of the Church of Satan) differently than you treat others, that will create even more problems of integration. Why should they integrate with the likes of you. You don't even accept them the way they are. You reject them, they will reject you.

Actually now that you mention it I speak Dutch to an inferior level than I do German and I never lived in Germany. Maybe I should never bother to improve my Dutch because eventually there will be a law that you have to live in a ghetto with all other "brown" people, and if you are "brown" you can't leave that ghetto.

Do you really think that will happen so easy like the nazis did it to the Jews, that the same could be done today with the Muslims and other "brown" people, who btw happen to be citizens of EUROPE ?

No way.

This is their home too. If someone threatened your home, would you not fight ? If they threatened your religion, your beliefs and your ideals. If they threatened to make you a "lesser" citizen because of discriminatory laws would you not fight ?

When the state becomes a power that victimises and persecutes it's citizens by abuse of it's power, it is a necessity for the citizens to dissolve the powers of the state to maintain justice, for ALL.

We all know about such laws and their purpose. Have we learnt nothing from the Nazis ? Have we learnt nothing from WW2 American where more than 15% favored eliminating the Japanese as a nation. Nothing from the annihilation of the Native Americans. Nothing from Imperial Britain. Nothing from 9/11. Nothing from Iran, Saudi Arabia .

Apparently not. Then we shall learn again, and again, until one day when we don't have to learn the same lessons again and again.

And all this time I thought Holland was a liberated and decent country with human rights, and laws for freedom for all. I believed this even though I repeatedly heard gross generalisations that the Ducth are a deeply racist people who hide their resentment for foreigners.

All it took was the murder of the homosexual (NOTHING wrong with homosexuality btw) far right racist politician (RIP), Pim (and I forget his last name) to bring out the worst in Dutch society. One thing about Pim, at least he was forthright about his beliefs, you knew where he stood, which is far more than you can say for most people in any society.

Then again the elections might have something to do with it, on a political level.

Issues of security ? Only a 4 year old child would believe lies like that.

Finally, just in case, there ARE any children who may read this post.
All questions presented here are rhetorical to which I neither expect, or accept an answer.

[Reenk Roink]

It is becoming increasingly difficult to follow the posts here.

The Dutch government is drafting a bill proposing the ban of burqas.

One reason given is security. The rationale is that it hides the identity of the person underneath, and perhaps it may be used to to evade security in a terrorist plot or some related violent act.

This premise is understandable, at least personally. However, the fact that approximately 30 women wear the burqa out of 500000 and the fact that there has been no incident (at least to my knowledge) of a "burqa bomber" or a person who hid under a burqa to commit an act of terrorism or violence seriously calls into question the importance of the problem.

Another reason is integration. Personally, I can't understand why this is so important to European people. Infact, I'm shaky on what "integration" is exactly supposed to mean. Here we have clusters of each culture living among themselves. Chinatowns, Indiatowns, etc... There are black neighborhoods and white neighborhoods, Polish neighborhoods and Russian neighborhoods. At my high school, almost all of the black kids hung out in one section of the school, same with the Hispanic kids. People are usually more comfortable with people of their same culture and race. Someone needs to elaborate more on integration for me to even completely understand this viewpoint.

AdrianII brought up "what kind of society we want to be". Again, I ask for some elaboration. I interpret this currently as preserving the secular identity of the Netherlands, but this could easily be wrong.

The real issue that caused me to speak up was the fact that real problems like violence and terrorism were somehow linked with headscarves, handshakes (or lack thereof), and burqas. Later, domestic abuse was attached...

This is just absurd to me.

Certainly, there are problems with fringe elements of Muslims in the Netherlands and all over the world with extremism. Everyone will admit to this. The person who killed Van Gogh, the person who killed the politician, the persons who make threats against Ali and others, the persons who burn Muslim schools and mosques, the persons who threaten, injure, and even kill people for being Muslim, all of these people are huge problem. Muslim extremists are the Muslim problem, and a problem for Islam. Dutch fascists and neo-Nazi's are a problem for the Dutch people and a problem for the Netherlands.

Smuggling burqas and headscarves with these problems is just wrong...

In the end, the Dutch people will vote on this, and we will see the result. If the majority of the Dutch hold that a dress code should be followed in Dutch society then the Muslim women should have to follow it or leave. They are living in another country and should follow the rules of the land (although even Saudi Arabia and Iran allow foreign women to not abide by their dress codes). I actually don't think it will be too much of a problem in the big picture, as only 30 women will be affected.

[Adrian II]

AdrianII brought up "what kind of society we want to be". Again, I ask for some elaboration.

To me, a nation is a political project. Nothing more, nothing less.

I have always thought about it that way since my father gave me the 1882 Sorbonne lecture Qu'est-ce qu'une nation? by Ernest Renan to read. There are English translations available on various websites. In Renans view, a nation was not constituted by a (supposed) common past, but by the commitment to a common future.

In my own view, commitment to a common Dutch future means commitment to a political project based, roughly speaking, on democracy, justice and freedom from want.

Americans will easily understand this principle. They are an immigrant nation united by a Constitution more than by anything else, including any traditions inherited from the countries of origin. Look at the requirements for U.S. citizenship:

Requirements include:

• A period of continuous residence and physical presence in the United States
• An ability to read, write and speak English
• Good moral character
• Knowledge of the principles of the U.S. Constitution
• Favorable disposition toward the United States
• Oath of Allegiance

All these requirements stress the commitment of the new citizen to the common project, as well as his/her ability to participate in it (language, minimum legal knowledge). You no like, you no welcome.

I believe we should take a leaf or two from the American book, maybe adapt them but retain the main thrust. Regarding the subject of this thread, I think the Dutch political project excludes religious practices that result in the discrimination of women. Period. You no like, you go pray somewhere else.

EDIT

Dear Sinan, I am sorry I didn't catch your post (above) about your Canadian friend and yourself earlier. My sincere compliments. That is exactly the spirit I mean.

[Scurvy]

. In Renans view, a nation was not constituted by a (supposed) common past, but by the commitment to a common future.
In my own view, commitment to a common Dutch future means commitment to a political project based, roughly speaking, on democracy, justice and freedom from want.

Surely a nation is constituted by a combination of the two? a common past brings people together, while a commitmnet to a common future binds them together... although i agree with the jist of it (i'v never heard of renan - but it sounds interesting to read)

I believe we should take a leaf or two from the American book, maybe adapt them but retain the main thrust. Regarding the subject of this thread, I think the Dutch political project excludes religious practices that result in the discrimination of women. Period. You no like, you go pray somewhere else.

In my opinion all religions discriminate. By creating a grouping as such a seperation is created between those of that religion and those who are not, if your going to have a plkitical projest, you can't have any religion at all...

[Shahed]

Dear Sinan, I am sorry I didn't catch your post (above) about your Canadian friend and yourself earlier. My sincere compliments. That is exactly the spirit I mean.

That's my cousin actually.

And thanks.

[Tribesman]

More active, in what respect? As of yet, I've never heard of any protestant christians sending large amounts of death threats to our politicians. Or making plans to attack nuclear power plants, or that sort of stuff.

That's probably because of our biased media, though

Well there are hundreds of examples this year alone of "Christians" sending death threats to politicians , the judiciary ,clergy ,entertainers , the police , pressure groups , scientists , college staff , medical staff ........

Then this month there was that other religeous group who following up on their death threats to shopkeepers , bus drivers , restauranteurs , schoolteachers ......this time decided it was the turn of politicians , the police , judiciary and gays .

In every branch together with the holy fruit you also find the religeous nuts .

[Fragony]

What's up with this, my Dutch friends?

quite simple mia muca, elections Dirt! Torturing dutch soldiers shameless hoaxes, independent statechannels, it's beautifull!

[Prince of the Poodles]

If this sends a message to muslims that they cannot expect to be accepted by society if they do not accept social norms, then I support it.

Also, hopefully it might prevent them from concealing terrorists identities.

[CrossLOPER]

If this sends a message to muslims that they cannot expect to be accepted by society if they do not accept social norms, then I support it.

Also, hopefully it might prevent them from concealing terrorists identities.

I heard there are some Islamic terrorists hiding under your bed. (confirm/deny)

[Prince of the Poodles]

edit Mithrandir: no insults allowed.

[Fragony]

If this sends a message to muslims that they cannot expect to be accepted by society if they do not accept social norms, then I support it.

Also, hopefully it might prevent them from concealing terrorists identities.

Kind of handy if the radicals are easy to identify, couldn't care less, whatever will be will be. As long as they don't expect any love/$$$ if they can't get a job because they like walking around in their tents. Give trouble and be dealt with, and don't come begging here for food when you are hungry, eat your cloth instead.