Netherlands law proposed to ban wearing burkas in public?

[Adrian II]

Yes, the economy is picking up, so they have more time and money to waste on tiny issues.

I don't think you understand the social and emotional impact. The proposed law merely concerns face-covering in the technical sense, but the cultural connotations of the burka are a hot issue in themselves.

Many non-Muslim Dutchmen will support the measure simply because they dislike the burka and all that they feel it stands for; many Muslim Dutchmen will feel that it is discriminatory because it appears to target only Muslims and is supported by a large section of the public that dislikes Islam.

It is part of an ongoing debate about the wearing of headscarves and religious symbols in public and particularly in public or private office, about manners and etiquette, attitudes towards sexual matters, etcetera. In the end, the entire debate revolves around the public image and position of women, education, the social fabric, in short: the kind of society we want to be. We may be a tiny country, but to us this is not a tiny issue.

[Mithrandir]

I don't think you understand the social and emotional impact. The proposed law merely concerns face-covering in the technical sense, but the cultural connotations of the burka are a hot issue in themselves.

Many non-Muslim Dutchmen will support the measure simply because they dislike the burka and all that they feel it stands for; many Muslim Dutchmen will feel that it is discriminatory because it appears to target only Muslims and is supported by a large section of the public that dislikes Islam.

It is part of an ongoing debate about the wearing of headscarves and religious symbols in public and particularly in public or private office, about manners and etiquette, attitudes towards sexual matters, etcetera. In the end, the entire debate revolves around the public image and position of women, education, the social fabric, in short: the kind of society we want to be. We may be a tiny country, but to us this is not a tiny issue.

I am very well aware of the entire situation .

Making huge issues of things like this only keeps "immigration problems" in the media. If things aren't in the media, people don't worry about it (agenda-theory)[not nearly as much at least]. If people don't make a big fuss about this, the muslims will feel more welcome and generally adapt easier to the native culture, which results in more mutual respect.

[Adrian II]

Making huge issues of things like this only keeps "immigration problems" in the media.

It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a problem to disappear because the media stop reporting it.

Adrian II, 23:14

[Mithrandir]

I didn't say disappear.

[Adrian II]

I didn't say disappear.

Speaking of which.

Migration problems tend to grow and fester the moment they 'disappear' from the public eye. This applies particularly to the problems of migrant women because of their lower status in their countries of origin, which is often replicated in the new environment and makes them more vulnerable than the men. That is why this is highly relevant to the kind of society we want to be.

The shelters for abused women in The Netherlands for instance are overflowing with thousands of Muslim women who have been seriously abused and threatened. Survey after survey shows that they are just the tip of an iceberg. It is obvious that the immersion of Muslims in western cultures does not always bring out the best in them, but past attitudes of playing this issue down or pretending that is has nothing to do with religion have not helped one little bit.

Religion is central to this problem of extreme domestic violence. The abuse of women is endemic to any religion that proclaims women are second-rate citizens, subject to male control and violence, and have no business in the public domain except for domestic reasons. I don't care what the Quran says on the subject. I am speaking of what Muslims do in the name of their faith. After a hundred years of gradual emancipation of women, I don't want such views and practices to take hold in Dutch society once more, be it in the name of God, Allah or the Big Mumjojumbo.

Burqas, the refusal of the handshake, headscarves, gay bashing and battering, religously inspired threats of violence against politicians, artists and other public figures all belong to the same equation. Muslims are not the problem, but Muslims have a problem. And it will not disappear if we stop reporting on it.

[Tribesman]

OK Adrian if this proposed law is no problem then how about this ...
It is a typical freezing winters day in the very lowlands , clear sky but with snow on the ground , you go out in a nice warm hat , a scarf or muffler and some sun/snow glasses .
You are a criminal
A stupid proposal for a law and unworkable .

[Adrian II]

OK Adrian if this proposed law is no problem then how about this ...
It is a typical freezing winters day in the very lowlands , clear sky but with snow on the ground , you go out in a nice warm hat , a scarf or muffler and some sun/snow glasses .
You are a criminal
A stupid proposal for a law and unworkable .

What nonsense. Dutch law acknowledges force majeure just like any modern law code. Extreme cold is force majeure.

Dutch law also forbids public nudity, but if my clothes catch fire and I shed them all, I will of course not be arrested for indecency.

Stop finding silly excuses, address the issue.

[Reenk Roink]

Burqas, the refusal of the handshake, headscarves, gay bashing and battering, religously inspired threats of violence against politicians, artists and other public figures all belong to the same equation. Muslims are not the problem, but Muslims have a problem. And it will not disappear if we stop reporting on it.

How on earth are you equating or even mentioning together burqas, headscarves, and refusal of handshakes with violence against artists and gays?

They don't compare...

[Crazed Rabbit]

How on earth are you equating or even mentioning together burqas, headscarves, and refusal of handshakes with violence against artists and gays?

They don't compare...

I do believe they have one common factor. Ever hear of a recently deceased guy named Van Gogh?

Adrian - is it just the women who refuse handshakes, or both men and women?

It is a typical freezing winters day in the very lowlands , clear sky but with snow on the ground , you go out in a nice warm hat , a scarf or muffler and some sun/snow glasses .
You are a criminal
A stupid proposal for a law and unworkable .

I wasn't aware 'crazy hypothetical situation you pulled out of your ***' qualified as a good reason not to have a law.

CR

[Adrian II]

How on earth are you equating or even mentioning together burqas, headscarves, and refusal of handshakes with violence against artists and gays?

They don't compare...

Ask the battered women how they compare.

What you wrote above was the official line for decades, but the problem would not disappear. Then a member of Dutch parliament, a woman originally from Somalia named Hirsi Ali, began drawing attention to the issue of abuse in a very public manner. Subsequently, she had to be guarded in military fashion round the clock and was several times shipped out of the country because of persistent and realistic death threats from islamists.

You still don't see any problem?

[InsaneApache]

Speaking of which.

Migration problems tend to grow and fester the moment they 'disappear' from the public eye. This applies particularly to the problems of migrant women because of their lower status in their countries of origin, which is often replicated in the new environment and makes them more vulnerable than the men. That is why this is highly relevant to the kind of society we want to be.

The shelters for abused women in The Netherlands for instance are overflowing with thousands of Muslim women who have been seriously abused and threatened. Survey after survey shows that they are just the tip of an iceberg. It is obvious that the immersion of Muslims in western cultures does not always bring out the best in them, but past attitudes of playing this issue down or pretending that is has nothing to do with religion have not helped one little bit.

Religion is central to this problem of extreme domestic violence. The abuse of women is endemic to any religion that proclaims women are second-rate citizens, subject to male control and violence, and have no business in the public domain except for domestic reasons. I don't care what the Quran says on the subject. I am speaking of what Muslims do in the name of their faith. After a hundred years of gradual emancipation of women, I don't want such views and practices to take hold in Dutch society once more, be it in the name of God, Allah or the Big Mumjojumbo.

Burqas, the refusal of the handshake, headscarves, gay bashing and battering, religously inspired threats of violence against politicians, artists and other public figures all belong to the same equation. Muslims are not the problem, but Muslims have a problem. And it will not disappear if we stop reporting on it.

Adrian I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said here. I couldn't have put it better myself. Living in a city with approxomatley 35-40% Moslem population I see and hear a lot of such matters. There are cases of Moslem women who have lived here for 20 years or more who cannot speak a word of English. Do I have to explain why they can't?

The last time this was brought up in the BR I initially supported the notion that anyone can wear what they bloody well like. After some reflection, I changed my mind. Also consider this. In England at least, the concealing of the face is looked upon as something sinister. The executioner at the gallows, the robber, the terrorist for example.

At least the Dutch government has the intestinal fortitude to take this step. Somehow I couldn't see my mate Tony Charles Lynton taking such action.