Campaign map balance

[Neon twilight]

Let's talk about the camp map balance. What factions are always the rulers/crushed too easly/lack of money ressources ect... in your games how can they be balanced to make the game even better, I can't play every faction at time, nobody can but gatthered experience may reveal some issues that can be adressed to CA or changed via mods.

Here are the my toughts so far after 5 days of playing : I've played Danemark, Russia, Egypt and a little bit Milan and France.

- Mongols have too strong army with lots of silver chevrons, they took half eastern europe in my game even constaniople without encountering any good resistance I know they sould be strong but it's a bit overexagerated.
- Conquering holy lands (Jerusalem ect...) is too easy for europeans this weakness sould come from : Musulism factions are to weak to conquer fast the aera to organise a solid resistance, the good things would be to give a part of rebel cities to egypt since the beginning of the game or up the rebels that gard the city.
- Russians need some boost regarding economy and territory, giving them one more city from start could be a good thing.
- Italian cities such as Milan gets an horribly high amount of money compared to others such as the germans or france that have more cities.

Those are more for mods :
- Scandinavia is too small and not well represented expending a bit the map to the north with few province could help the danish expend and become a bit stronger it'll be better for russians too.
- Rebels settlement sould have more/better troops to defend themselve it will limit some AI expansion and increase difficulty in some case also the faction need more money.
- Having more developed cities for all factions at start may improve the AI choice of troops and having nice battles at the start of the game than spearmen + archers fights.

[TinCow]

The Mongols have been experiencing what looks like an AI bug in my game. They haven't done anything at all, so I can't comment on them.

I fully agree that the Muslim factions seem very weak. The Moors were immediately steamrolled by Portugal, despite an alliance with Spain, and later Spain finished them off after taking out Portugal. The Turks and Egyptians have barely expanded. Egypt even caved in quickly to the Crusaders. After I captured Antioch, they quickly made peace with me and I have occupied several territories there for 70+ turns now without any wars with the Turks or Egyptians. The same thing happened when the HRE succeeded in the second Crusade... they captured Jerusalem from Egypt, who immediately declared peace and everyone has been friendly ever since. There has not been one single Jihad in my game.

Europe is a different affair. Spain and Portugal had a long-term struggle. Denmark has been fighting Poland and Russia for ages. Hungary, Poland, and Byzantium have been going back and forth for ages. Venice has been fighting everyone. France put up a great struggle against me until I finally broke their largest armies.

I'm rather annoyed with the lack of action in the Muslim lands, but it didn't decrease the fun factor of my game, since I wasn't located there.

[troymclure]

So far Denmark has been a strong performer in my two games. Regularly in the top 3 overall. Germany has always done badly, usually getting wiped out first or second. England seems very passive, barely expands and so far has never amounted too much (especially when i was the scottish;)).

The Itilian states, do ok, so far one of them has always ended up taking over most of that region and becoming a decent power. Russian had a mixed draw, coming second behind me when i was scottish at about 1250 but getting wiped out early my other game.

Playing as Spain the first time it was fairly easy to conquer the middle east, i made prodigious use of crusades though. Playing as Scotland i barely saw them so hard to comment on that area.

[sarjenius]

On my medium campaign every faction is doing good. I admit though, that the mongols seem to be a bit strong at their first appearance. In the midgame they are easily in greece. Only after the pope declared a crusade against Constantinople, which every catholic faction joined, were they beaten across the Bosporus. The Timurids are strong too, and have settled the Holy Land from north to south.

The Danes are doing very well after initally ignoring the rebel rebel settlements in the north and expanding first south. By now in turn 185 the Scots, the Portuguese and Byzanz are exterminated. The Turks are lingering on the far eastern map border, beaten by the mongols. Mongols, Timurids are among the best 3 (with me the 1st -> England). Danes and Venice with Spain are in the mid range.

Russia seems to be in the boundaries they started with but with the addition of the rebel settlements in their vicinity.

[derfinsterling]

Don't know about the Muslims. I'm playing the Russians and have turned off fog of war (I like to see what's going on elsewhere) and the Moors already have a big, big empire, while the Turks are gobbling up the Rebel provinces in the Southeastern corner.

The Scots could be a little more active, they seem to just sit there and wait for the English to come to them.
Hmm... Maybe I'll have to play as them after I finish with Russia.

[Ciddler]

Hilariously, in my game the Scots have taken England! I found out when I wanted to block the harbour of England and it was actually scottish! The Mongols are almost in Italy and the Timurids are havoking in the Middle-East.

- Italian cities such as Milan gets an horribly high amount of money compared to others such as the germans or france that have more cities.

I think this is because of their geographical position and their harbours that allow them to trade plentifully. Historically they just happened to be a sea-faring trading nation.

I agree that the Mongols are very strong, but that's not a bad thing (unless you are in the East ;) ). Crusades are easy in the beginning, later on they are harder.

[Daveybaby]

Why on earth should they be balanced?

Some factions have a better position than others. Thats how its SUPPOSED to be. That way you get to choose whether to play an easy faction or a hard one.

Balance in MP = Good Thing
Balance in SP = Boring

[urbancohort]

Everything seems to be pretty random.

The Danes are very strong in my game (the first one i started as England), i eliminated the Scots and have almost eliminated France but the Danes will be a big threat. The HRE is fishting with the Milanese whilst the Hungarians are fighting both the Venetians and Byzantines (BYZ down to 1 city). Spain has defeated Portugal and has all of N Africa as well as all Spain. Russia tries to fight with Denmark but fails miserably and has nearly gone.

Don't know about the other map areas yet.

[Faenaris]

In my Sicilian campaign, the Venetians were the top dog. I was being a passive faction (only had Corsica, Sardinia, Sicily, Southern Italy and Rhodos), but they had lands from central europe to asia minor! I had Jerusalem, but the Venice were about to siege Aleppo, which was a bit too close for comfort. The French were wiped out, Byzantium was on the point of being kicked out and the Mongols are dominating eastern Europe. The HRE is sandwiched, but still going strong. Milan owns the French lands. Spain is gone, Portugal kicked the Moors out of Iberia, but they aren't out yet. Scotland is holding off the English and Denmark is pretty quiet.

In my Danish campaign, the French have been wiped out and Milan is going to share that fate. Venice is comming up strong, but Hungary and the HRE keep them at bay. The Poles are dueling with the Russians (while the Poles are also harassing the HRE, with a little persuasion and some monetary support from me ). Sicily has captured Rome and La Papa has ordered a Crusade on the eternal city! So far, I haven't seen the Papacy get a new land, so, it might happen if the Pontiff takes a hard fall. England is invading France, while Scotland owns all the northern provinces and have a nice stack hanging around the border with Nottingham. Constantinople has been "Jihaded" and on the verge of going the way of the dodo. The Turks are the major powerhouse in the Middle East and the Egyptians are struggling to stay alive. And the Moors, for some unknown reason, have a full stack running around in Italy! The Mongols haven't arrived yet, but they will be dealing with the Turks, Hungarians and Russians before they can have some serious influence.

Much more random then RTW, if you ask me. And I like it.

[Stolpmeister]

Another vote for "pretty random", here. The only patterns I've spotted so far has been a strong Milan (good economic starting position, almost always expands successfully to the northwest) and, of course, strong Mongols. Other than that things seem random. The HRE were wiped out quick in my first campaign, in my second they're a major player. As Spain, I killed the Moors quickly, but now when I'm playing Danmark they've taken over the entire Iberian peninsula. Sicily were the top-dog of southern Italy and eastern Greece when I was Spain, but now they only have Sicily left (taken over by Venice). Egypt almost always seem to do badly, but I thought that was mostly due to a near-constant arrival of large, crusading Catholic armies.

[gardibolt]

It could be that CA incorporated some of the campaign AI elements from BI that did have kind of a random feel to them---every game you played in BI was very different, with factions behaving differently each time. Sometimes aggressive, sometimes not. The original RTW tended to play pretty much the same (with some exceptions) in the non-player part of the world. To my mind, the difference is a good thing, since it makes the game much less predictable and increases its longevity.

[Dr_Who_Regen#4]

It could be that CA incorporated some of the campaign AI elements from BI that did have kind of a random feel to them---every game you played in BI was very different, with factions behaving differently each time. Sometimes aggressive, sometimes not. The original RTW tended to play pretty much the same (with some exceptions) in the non-player part of the world. To my mind, the difference is a good thing, since it makes the game much less predictable and increases its longevity.

I agree with this Gardibolt. I think it is great that from one game to the next the AI acts differently in different regions. I also like that some nations are weaker to start then others to give the human player a challenge.

[Scipio Africano]

Quick Q Are the Mongols bugged in my game?

They seem to be very indecisive. And they dont hold provinces. Sacking and abandoning. I hold Antioch and Adana, after a Regicide mission and a brief 3 turn alliance they decided to surround Antioch and move everyone towards Adana. But they just lifted the siege after a couple of turns without ever attackig. Now they're moving south again.

Medium campaign turn 120
(slow and steady wins the race)

[Polemists]

I dunno why you guys think the muslims are to weak, I took antioch, jersuelum, and allepo all in a series of swap, fettered them out to my allies. Hoping they would expand and we could have the whole european conquest of middle east thing. Nope, Venice got creamed by turks, France got whipped by Rebels, and I personally had 2000 man jihad launched not once but twice on the holy city itself. Now i have to go back on another crusade to take it cause popes pissed lol.

Only surprise faction of my campaign is portgual, seem way over matched to spain.

Mongols stopped attacking, I think Turmid is a nice balance to them.

[Sir Robin]

I have noticed that the Muslim factions seem pretty tame in my game and shock of shocks Milan was the first faction to expire, not from me either.

[Dooz]

Well then, it seems campaigns are pretty varied, I like! In my game, Muslims are whooping buttocks. The Moors have all but destroyed the Spanish in Iberia, and displaced Portugal to the two cities at the very top of the peninsula. The Mongols.... I don't even think are around anymore, weird. The Turks are powerful in the east, and Egypt is doing it's thing in the Middle East. Actually, the Muslim factions are the most powerful ones around seeing as how Europe is torn by wars and everyone but me is struggling to survive. I think I'll go take a quick screenshot of the campaign map and post it. How's about you all post some up too for comparisons, yay!


Here we go.


Ah, and I took Tunis in my very own Crusade. At some point afterwards, the council of nobles asked me to take Calgliari castle on the island to the north.

[Filipe24]

well in my game the first faction to lose was hre!!! (Not by me no heirs to the throne i think).Milan has also gone (French took them out), so has Spain (I took them out) and poland. As for the rest, the year is 1260 Aprox I Have control of the iberian peninsula and southern france (Portugal) also have Jersusalem. The danish have a fantastic empire that stretches to russia, the scots have the BI, while england only have 1 province paris lol. In the middle east egypt controls things The turks have been pushed north into russia and the mongols haven't done anything yet just wonder around.