By what names would the factions have been known?

[adembroski]

Certainly we know nobody referred to the Byzantine Empire as such, and this applies to most of the factions in one way or another... by what names were the entities that make up our factions be called by contemporaries?

Would England be simply called the Normans? Seems to me that if the word England had come into being at all it would have referred to the geographic region of greater Britain rather than those ruled by King William. If they are called Normans, would that make Sicily? Did people differenciate between political entities? By political entity I speak of a given feudal pyramid under a single King/Kaiser/what-have-you.

[HoreTore]

factions would be known by the title of their leader. As such, the english would be called english, as their king is the king of england...

[Furious Mental]

England was called England. England did not become a part of Normandy. The Duke of Normandy assumed the position of King of England. As soon as William the Conqueror died the two positions were separated again for a while, until Henry I invaded Normandy and put out his brother's (the Duke's) eyes. Also, in geographical terms, "England" referred to the area England now occupies and nowhere else. Scotland, Wales and Ireland were most definitely not part of "England". The only areas of variation would have been the Welsh and Scottish marches.

Although England was ruled by a bunch of people we now refer to as Normans, the only people who generally called them Normans at that stage were the Normans. To the English they were "Franks" and to the French anyone who came from England was "English".

[Memnoch]

What were the Turks, Hungarians and Poles known as?

[Didz]

@adembroski

In truth the factions would be known by a number of names over the period depicted in the game.

If we take England as an example: Prior to Alfred the Greats efforts to unify the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms against the Vikings Angle Land consisted of seven petty kingdoms including Northumbria, Mercia, East Anglia, Essex, Kent, Sussex, and Wessex. Alfred declared himself King of the English in 886 but the country was not finally united into England for at least another 100 years under Alfred grandson Eadred after a series of military campaigns both internal and against Danish incursions.

So, by the time of the Norman Invasion there was a kingdom of England under a single ruler even though it consisted of a number of seperate Earldoms losely matched to the former Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms.

Its worth remembering that William was not a King, until after his successful invasion of England. Normandy was a Dukedom and thus it was natural that upon securing the English crown he adopted the higher title of King of England over that of the lesser Duke of Normandy. He also set about destroying the existing internal structure of the country by eliminating the Earldoms and parcelling the land out amongst his faithful knights and retainers. Thus, by 1087 the transformation of Angle Land into England was more or less complete and the basis of the current Shire system was in place, but it had taken over 200 years.

I suspect that every other faction in the game is going through a similar evolution and of course our own actions merely confuse the issue still farther by adding lands to the overall mix that historically never formed part of that factions domain.

If as HoreTore suggests we renamed the factions to match the family names of their leaders then the English faction would become Gunnor as I believe that was the family name of Dukes of Normandy. However, even this would only be temporarily accurate as ruling family names change over time. England for instance has been through Godwin, Norman (1066-),Blois (1135-) Plantaganet (1154-), Anjou (some land held until 1209), Lancaster (1399-), York (1461-), Tudor (1485-), Stuart (1603-), Orange (jointly 1689-1702) Hanover (1714-1901), Saxe Gotha (1901-renamed Windsor) Windsor (1901-Present)

I've noticed similar changes in the family names of my rulers during the game so it would not provide a stable naming convention.

[Didz]

What were the Turks, Hungarians and Poles known as?

Interestingly I just looked up what the Byzantine Empire was actually called and it was called by its native Greek name Ρωμανία, which translates into Rōmania, or Βασιλεία Ρωμαίων, which translates into Basileia Rōmaiōn.

This is a direct translation of the Latin name of the Roman Empire, Imperium Romanum. The name Byzantine was not used until 1557 and is based upon the original name of Constantinople (Byzantium)

[HoreTore]

What were the Turks, Hungarians and Poles known as?

The turks were first the Seljuk turks, then the ottoman empire.

[Eng]

I think the eygpt faction was knowen as the mumluk empire at least in the jearuslem provinces or something like that...

[Quillan]

Fatimid Caliphate, wasn't it? (Egypt, that is?)

[Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)]

There are many historical problems in this game.

[LegioScythia]

I didnt really notice that.....

[Agent Smith]

The "Russians" were really known as Kievan Rus from the mid 9th century on until the middle of the 12th century. Prior to that it was the Rus Khaganate, which began in the early ninth century at Novgorod at later pushed south to Kiev. Power could not be held together for long, however, and (I think wikipedia put it best) "during the years from 1054 to 1224 no fewer than 64 principalities had a more or less ephemeral existence, 293 princes put forward succession claims, and their disputes led to 83 civil wars."

Anyway, there is a good read about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus%27

[edyzmedieval]

At the start of the game, the Byzantines were known as Romania, and they called themselves Rhomaioi.

Turks - Saljuq Turks
Egypt - Ayyubid Caliphate, later Fatimid Caliphate
Russia - Kievan Rus, Novgorod Cnezate(sp?)
Hungarians - Kingdom of Hungary, with the capital at Buda (Budapest is made by Buda and Pesta)
Spain - Kingdom of Castille, Kingdom of Leon, Kingdom of Toledo
Moors - Almoravid Berber Caliphate, later Almohad Caliphate
Italy(Milan and Venice) - Republic of Venice, Milan, Genoa, Florence
Sicily - Norman Kingdom of Sicily (Palermo and Naples)

[spark82]

Hi all, this is my first post!

So, for not to be off topic:
I play 1.1 patch with Deus lo Vult 2.0 mod, and in that all the kingdoms are named as they called themselves in their own language. As for Hungary (Kingdom of Hungary) the name is "Magyar Királyság". AFAIK it's correct, and I'm Hungarian, so...
And all the others seem correct, for Poland: Krolestwo Polskie, Turks: Selcucklular, Spanish: El Reino Leon y Castille, etc...
Maybe that method could be used, and also, the authors of that mod returned the territorial ranking system (Count of Pest, Lord of Croatia (for Zagreb) etc.), so it's quite cool. Also they included the crowns of each christian faction, and you have to return to your capital with the faction heir to be crowned and so on. But it's not my work, so check it out. I can't remember the address completely but google surely helps.

[Temujin]

Egypt - Ayyubid Caliphate, later Fatimid Caliphate

Fatimids came before the Ayyubids, surely? Replaced by the Mamelukes in mid 13th century, IIRC.

Mongols could be either Golden Horde or Ilkhanid, depending on where they appear. Historically, they should appear in both Baghdad and Volga-Bulgaria, and not be mashed into a single horde with Batu and Hulegu both present.

[spark82]

Oh and I forgot that in the age the game occurs, not Buda nor Pest was the capital of Hungary... Until about 1050 there was no "capital", the residence of the king was Székesfehérvár (SouthWest of Budapest), which means "white castle with throne" or something like that. Then came our first capital, Esztergom (North of Budapest) until it was moved to Visegrád (near Esztergom) about 1300. Visegrad remained capital until 1422 when King Sigismundus (later Holy Roman Emperor) moved his residence to Buda. But when he became Emperor, he moved to Vienna maybe - I have to check that. Buda started to function as capital in 1456 under Matthias I. But he also moved to Vienna when he captured it in 1480. And in 1541 Buda was captured by the Seljuk turks and it was held by them until 1686. During that period the capital was Pozsony (today Bratislava, capital of Slovakia). And Buda became capital again only in 1873 when it was merged with two other towns: Óbuda and Pest... So, technically Buda was capital in the mediecal ages only for the shortest periods...
And one more thing: the former Kingdom of Hungary gave not less than 4(!) capitals to today Europe: Budapest (Hungary, quite ovious ), Bratislava (former Pozsony, Hungarian capital for over 300 years, today Slovakian capital), Zagreb (Croatia), and Beograd (former Nándorfehérvár, where the Turkish army was defeated in 1456, and according to history tolling at noon was ordered by the pope on that victory of christendom, today Serb capital).
So that for capitals and M2:TW historical accuracy :)

[Empirate]

This thread belongs in the monastery.

However, to add my 0.02$:

Italy was actually part of the Roman Empire (Imperium Romanum), which from about 1160 called itself the Holy Roman Empire (Sacrum Imperium Romanum). This included everything north of Rome and what today is the italian province of Marche (Ancona etc.). Nominally, Venice was part of this, but the Repubblica di Venezia was largely independent. The same doesn't go for Milan, however: It was (more or less) firmly under the boot of the german emperors, until gaining its independence during the first half of the 12th century. The Regnum Burgundiae, also called the Arelatum, was also part of the (Holy) Roman Empire. It was located in moder southeastern France, encompassing everything near the Rhône river down to Provence and Toulouse.
Sicily and southern Italy (up to Gaeta, which is about 50 kilometers from Rome) formed the Regnum Siciliae, at least from 1130/36 on, when the Pope had to accept this state of affairs, having been soundly beaten by the Normans. But in the 1190s, this realm was conquered by Heinrich VI. of Hohenstaufen and made part of the Holy Roman Empire, too. The same emperor also took Cyprus as a stepping stone toward the Holy Land, but died before he could start his crusade.

So you see, the HRE could have been depicted as a much more powerful nation in the game - although I find it very much acceptable from a gameplay perspective that it wasn't.
/

[Taliferno]

Scotland was called the Kingdom of Alba. In Gaelic it actually meant the whole Island of Britain, but the Scots called themselves it in order to tout their own 'superiority' over the Saxons (later Normans) and various welsh princes. The 13th Century was when Scotland began to enter common usage in Scotland itself, when Edward I was about.

[phunkbot]

.....

The name Byzantine was not used until 1557 and is based upon the original name of Constantinople (Byzantium).....

Slavs and bulgarians in the balkan peninsula called Byzantium "Tzarigrad" (City of Kings or smth like that) and the byzantians themselves "romey" or "vyzantiitzi" (romans and byzantians) so i guess the name depends on what angle you look at it from. And, wasnt the byzantine empire gone in 1557? as far as i know the turks conquerered Constantinople in 14-something...

[Anti-TotalWar]

Constantinople was taken in 1453 by Mehmet II.

[HoreTore]

Slavs and bulgarians in the balkan peninsula called Byzantium "Tzarigrad" (City of Kings or smth like that) and the byzantians themselves "romey" or "vyzantiitzi" (romans and byzantians) so i guess the name depends on what angle you look at it from. And, wasnt the byzantine empire gone in 1557? as far as i know the turks conquerered Constantinople in 14-something...

Yes, that's what I believe is didz point... The "byzantines" were never called that by anyone other than historians centuries later.

[edyzmedieval]

Fatimids came before the Ayyubids, surely? Replaced by the Mamelukes in mid 13th century, IIRC.

Mongols could be either Golden Horde or Ilkhanid, depending on where they appear. Historically, they should appear in both Baghdad and Volga-Bulgaria, and not be mashed into a single horde with Batu and Hulegu both present.

Salah-al-Din (Saladin) was from the Ayyubid Dynasty. Mamlukes came to power in 1280, rising to power after Ayn Djalut, in 1260. It's weird with Egypt, because it was a simple caliphate, the Arab caliphate, which split up into 3: Cordoba, Cairo and Baghdad.

The Ilkhanate was the Mongol power of Baghdad, AFAIK.

[phunkbot]

Yes, that's what I believe is didz point... The "byzantines" were never called that by anyone other than historians centuries later.

Sorry, i forgot that part, i beleive we did call the state Byzantium after what Constantinople's name used to be

[Sirrvs]

Yes, that's what I believe is didz point... The "byzantines" were never called that by anyone other than historians centuries later.

I heard that this is the equivalent of calling present day Americans "Washingtonians."

[HoreTore]

I heard that this is the equivalent of calling present day Americans "Washingtonians."

Not really. It would be the equivalent of calling americans whatever-the-continent-of-america-was-called-before-it-was-called-america'ns

[Didz]

Not exactly because the Byzantine Empire never existed until some historian invented the name in the 16th century. So, Sirrvs analogy is correct it would be like some future historian deciding to refer to the United States of America as the Washingtonia Republic.

Its a bit like the current arguement about feudalism which also never existed until it was invented by a historian.

[HoreTore]

Well it would be correct in the sense that the name is simple made up, I was thinking about the name itself... Ie, "Byzantine" is drawn from the former name of constantinople, so americans would have to be called by the former name of america....or the former name of washington dc, I suppose.

[Jekermesh]

Salah-al-Din (Saladin) was from the Ayyubid Dynasty. Mamlukes came to power in 1280, rising to power after Ayn Djalut, in 1260. It's weird with Egypt, because it was a simple caliphate, the Arab caliphate, which split up into 3: Cordoba, Cairo and Baghdad.

The Ilkhanate was the Mongol power of Baghdad, AFAIK.

The Cordova Caliphate was infact set up by a descendent of the Ummayad family, the caliphate itself only lasted a comparitively small amount of time, and by 1080, there were only 2 caliphates, the Shia Fatimid one based in Cairo and the Sunni one in Baghdad. It was in fact Saladin whom ultimately extinguished the Fatimid caliphate, with of course characteristic solemnity. Furthermore i believe someone may have suggested that the Almohads came before the Almoravids, when the opposite is in fact true, if it was me who got mixed up and I am just repeating what you said, apologies.

[Grifman]

The Byzantines called themselves the "Roman Empire" but the western European nations called it the "Empire of the Greeks" or the "Empire of Constantinople" from what I have read.

[darth_napo]

btw why did the Moors now called the Moors not Almohad like in MTW?