There is no free speech here

[Dhepee]

I've been on the org for awhile, including a stint as a glorious assistant moderator in the Backroom, with scars to prove it.

People have a catalog of arguments when their posts get edited or deleted and they get disciplined, one of the most popular is "I have the freedom of speech." In most cases they are referring to the 1st Amendment of the United States Constitution. As a side note, people in the Netherlands, Great Britain, Germany, and France have invoked the 1st Amendment to mean freedom of speech in their country; so it's fair to say that that Amendment's standards are ubiquitous.

Okay, here's the contoversial part. The First Amendment guarantee only applies to state action. In other words, if a private party, such as the org, deletes your post, edits it or disciplines you for what you said, the freedom of speech doesn't apply. A private entity, such as the org, may limit speech however it wants, period.

That means that when the glorious moderators edit you post, delete it and/or discipline you, it isn't a free speech issue. The way free speech works is simple, if a private entity censors your speech you are free to leave and start your own private entity and say whatever you want.

Note to the glorious mods. I posted this here because it relates to how people react when they are edited and to how the org rules work. Feel free to move, edit, or delete this post.

[MSB]

Of course there isn't: the Org is a communist forum with onlyone rule: Do as admin says or the Gestapo will get you!

[Kralizec]

Note to the glorious mods. I posted this here because it relates to how people react when they are edited and to how the org rules work. Feel free to move, edit, or delete this post.

I think it would be a good idea to make this a sticky thread.

[MSB]

I think it would be a good idea to make this a sticky thread.

Seconded.

[Ser Clegane]

Welcome back, Dhepee

[Caius]

Tomas Pwnias must see this.
And i tooo think this must be stickfied

[TosaInu]

Hello Dhepee,

http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/Rules.shtml

We have the ability to remove objectionable messages and we will make every effort to do so, within a reasonable time frame, if we determine that removal is necessary.
..

The staff has also the ability to edit all messages by all users, but we rarely use it in order to avoid misunderstandings as to the identity of the originator of any given text.


Unfortunately, rarely isn't that rare anymore these days. Perhaps it happens more that the rules/good manners are ignored?

I have removed objectionable language from posts too. It's not rare that I then get a complaint that I should leave it there and politely, humbly and kindly beg the author to edit it. Yes right, keep swearing/rants/insults up for days until the hothead cooled down to please edit it.

[Andres]

Poor guy, it must be hard being at the top...

Hoge bomen vangen veel wind.

Just a pity people forget to appreciate what you guys are doing (all of that on a voluntary basis). And off course, nobody is perfect, so some of the complaints may be just (in which case I suppose you'll gradely (did I spell that correct?) admit it), but still, people should show more respect for all the effort you guys put into this community, all of that for free (or am I totally wrong here and do you gain astronomic (or even obscene) amounts of money for this?).

[Epistolary Richard]

Additionally, please note that the Org is essentially the 'publisher' of your comments. How far do you think I would get saying that a book publisher was restricting my freedom of speech because he refused to publish my 5,000 page novel describing my exploration of navel lint?

[Papewaio]

Lint Speed ... that is a ground breaking tome on how to travel the universe faster then the speed of light!

[Vuk]

They should have to publish you book!! My publisher published my publication (lol) on the importance clipping the nails on the right side of the foot bee4 the left, 300 pages of it to. (It was kinda repetitious).

[Andres]

My book is for sale since yesterday.

It's a philosophical work, entitled: "Nothing", 500 blank pages.

I'll make you guys a special price, only 250 €

[Caius]

My book is for sale since yesterday.

It's a philosophical work, entitled: "Nothing", 500 blank pages.

I'll make you guys a special price, only 250 €

I will start to write:The bored kid,by CF

[MSB]

If I was to say "I am going to kill Tony Blair in the House of Commons tomorrow" I would be arrested. The same applies for radical Muslim Clerics who demand that their addressees “Kill every evil citizen in the US and the UK".

If you are getting my point then you may have realised that there is no such thing as free speech anywhere in the world as you may be disciplined for anything that you say that is considered to be either hate crime or related to past or a future criminal event. Yes the rules are more lenient in the Western World, but say anything wrong anywhere and the police force will be after you the very moment that they find out.

Use the Org as an example of such a nation. They have laws like any other country in the world. Say anything that is considered to be against the Org’s laws and you will have the Gestapo/Secret Police editing/deleting/closing your threads/posts immediately.

[naut]

If I was to say "I am going to kill Tony Blair in the House of Commons tomorrow" I would be arrested. The same applies for radical Muslim Clerics who demand that their addressees “Kill every evil citizen in the US and the UK".

If you are getting my point then you may have realised that there is no such thing as free speech anywhere in the world as you may be disciplined for anything that you say that is considered to be either hate crime or related to past or a future criminal event. Yes the rules are more lenient in the Western World, but say anything wrong anywhere and the police force will be after you the very moment that they find out.

Use the Org as an example of such a nation. They have laws like any other country in the world. Say anything that is considered to be against the Org’s laws and you will have the Gestapo/Secret Police editing/deleting/closing your threads/posts immediately.

Uhhh, did you read what Dhepee posted?

Also read the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, especially its prohibition of defamatory speech or publications.

Or from the UN Charter:

1. Everyone shall have the right to hold opinions without interference.
2. Everyone shall have the right to freedom of expression; this right shall include freedom to seek, receive and impart information and ideas of all kinds, regardless of frontiers, either orally, in writing or in print, in the form of art, or through any other media of his choice.
3. The exercise of the rights provided for in paragraph 2 of this article carries with it special duties and responsibilities. It may therefore be subject to certain restrictions, but these shall only be such as are provided by law and are necessary:

(a) For respect of the rights or reputations of others;
(b) For the protection of national security or of public order (ordre public), or of public health or morals.

[MSB]

Uhhh, did you read what Dhepee posted?

Yes. I was just adding a little bit more to it saying that no free speech actually exists anyway.

[naut]

No worries.

[doc_bean]

Bah, i thought this was going to be another post by some new member complaining his post got deleted. I was already thinking up new ways to make fun of the idea of 'freedom of speech'. alas, wasted effort.

I agree with the first post, of course. Except for the idea that 'freedom of speech' would apply non-US citizens. Despite what Ramstein claims, we're not all living in America just yet

[TosaInu]

It's a philosophical work, entitled: "Nothing", 500 blank pages.

I reckon blank copypaper will get more expensive due to copyrights.

[Andres]

I reckon blank copypaper will get more expensive due to copyrights.

And when that happens, TheCunning will show up with his huge stockpiles of blank copypaper!

Hahaha! You'll all have to pay for TheCunning's paper! I will rule the world with blank copypaper! Muahahaha

Hm, ok, it's that time again :

[Dhepee]

In the US, home of the First Amendment, free speech co-exists with the prohibition on fighting words, defamation, threats, obscene speech, etc., because those forms of words are deemed non-speech because they are broadly considered to have no social value. The term "non-speech" is a legal fiction, that describes the absolute lack of value assigned to those types of speech.

Although people all over the world talk about their "First Amendment right" it is only an American right, however the concepts of the First Amendment are present in every non-totalitarian state, including the idea that certain forms of speech are non-speech and are therefore not covered by that nation's free speech guarantee. Most notable among these are Germany's laws on National Socialism, although a German jurist might not use the phrase "non-speech" to describe the promotion of Nazi ideals, it is conceptually the same. Without using the phrase "non-speech" a German jurist might well say that promotion of Nazi ideals is so abhorrent and is absolutely without social value that it cannot be covered by an express or implied right to free speech.

In a private forum, such as the org, the decision what is and is not "speech" is entirely at the discretion of the owner of the private forum.

[Crazed Rabbit]

A good thing to point out.

Additionally, please note that the Org is essentially the 'publisher' of your comments. How far do you think I would get saying that a book publisher was restricting my freedom of speech because he refused to publish my 5,000 page novel describing my exploration of navel lint?

Depends on where you are...reminds me of Atlas Shrugged.

CR

[The Wizard]

He speaks the truth. A forum just can't be run as no democracy. The Internets () are the last bastion of despotism in Western society. Be considerate. Protect the despot!

[Papewaio]

Due to the laws of entropy there is no such thing as free speech.

[The Stranger]

its like a hit to complain these days... ive got around 30 warnings and maybe like 2 werent correct... stop whining if you dont like it nobody stops you to leave

[Avicenna]

The Gestapo is fascist.

+0

[Adrian II]

No, there is no free speech on the .org, and for a reason. Deal with it. Stop bothering admins and moderators who put an inordinate amount of time and energy into making this board arguably the best of its kind. And don't you dare compare the likes of TosaInu or Mithrandir to the Gestapo again -- you are lucky you weren't banned for it. Now shoo.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Agreed Adrian.... I also got at least 10-12 warnings in the Many Months I been here... and 2 or 3 proably was wrong.... But it like, stop whining. There really no Free Speech in Real Life or here. You say somelike that Tib, for example, then you proably going to get banned, there you go..

[caravel]

It seems to me that certain member's go through a few distinct phases during their time on a messageboard. They start off as positive, helpful contributers, then become slighlty bored and head for the offtopic, then, once they're bored with that, they either disappear or they start complaining about the administration or the general policy of the website. This boredom -> attention seeking cycle is evidence that the member in question should probably move on and do something else with his or her time. If you're bored or feeling oppressed get ye to the .com to experience some real boredom and oppression.

[Meneldil]

Although people all over the world talk about their "First Amendment right" it is only an American right

Slightly OT, but I never heard someone talking about his First Amendment right out of the US.

Free speech is worthless anyway. Just close every topic except the Babe Thread, the Org will only get better that way.