Cav domination (again) and other mtw2 thoughts

[Dorkus]

Finally got to play mtw2 a bit. didn't even bother with the campaign -- just tinkered a bit in custom battle. Some initial thoughts:

1. Cav are going to dominate, as in rtw. I won't be building anything but cav and peasants (for garrisoning) in the campaign. Cav charge is even more devastating than in rtw, and unlike in rtw, it seems that you can charge multiple times with equal effectiveness, even if your cav are fatigued.

A unit of armoured sergeants gets absolutely decimated 1on1 by most heavy cav. And non-spear units do even worse. JHI, despite their armor-piercing, literally are instantly annihilated by chivalric knights without doing any signifciant damage (2-3 knights, sometimes 0) themselves.

The only unit that does reasonably well against cav is a pike, since the charge bonus (as in rtw) is turned back against the cav. Even pikes do very poorly unless you spread out their formation a bit -- if cav charge in around the corners/flank, they'll send men flying all over the place.

2. Spears/pikes seem significantly nerfed, both against cav and other inf. Pikes can still do reasonably well if you spread out their formation, and give them support. But they seem to have problems engaging enemies unless you actually right click to attack. (They will stand there doing no damage, while the enemy infantry wakl straight into their pikes as if walking into a wall.) But if you do right click, they break formation.

3. Very disappointed in the lack of an easy way to manipulate unit stats. I scanned through the mtw2 directory, and no analog to the unit_descr file from previous tw games.

4. Gunpower units still seem very weak for their cost and tech requirements. Though i suppose, by the time they're available, cost probably isn't a problem. Still, as in mtw, i will probably end up ignoring them completely. Or at most including 1 unit for the morale effects.

[Widget Maker]

Cav seem to have become something akin to a glass cannon, whilst yes they can charge through a group of spear men and rout them in one charge, if anything goes wrong and they get bogged down then even basic militia units can often cause massive damage. The trick is simply to make your lines deep enough to absorb the charge so even if you lose that unit of speak militia to the charge their expensive knights will get cut to pieces.

I think they're including the tools to easily modify unit stats in the patch.

[Mechstra]

Plus peasants are crap garrison troops this time around - you want militia instead. Free upkeep in cities plus they don't have the public-order-keeping penalties that peasants have.

[Djurre]

wtf, i have yet to see a good charge from my own cavalry....

[Rurik the Chieftain]

It seems like there are a lot of conflicting accounts of the quality of cavalry and cavalry charges around here. Some say they are moronic ninnies who shy away from charges at the last second and gently caress the enemy when they do charge. Others, like Dorkus, claim cavalry to be unstoppable killing machines that explode through enemy ranks like a sledgehammer on a watermelon. I can't wait to see what this is all about when I get it in a few days.

[Garnier]

I have seen both occurences. Once I charged a group of mailed knights at a wall of egyptian spears, and the succeded in carrying out the charge without stopping before arriving. The spearwall was completely squished as if by a steamroller, no one got away. It didnt look good at all, basically the horsemen rode right through and the spearmen all did their hollywood death animation.

But most of the time, my charges have stopped before arriving at the enemy, drawn swords and walked to their deaths.

[Ibn Munqidh]

1. Cavalry need to be well lined up and facing their target unit to perform a proper, well penetrating charge, otherwise, they will become in bogged in a bloody melee fight and made in to mincemeat.

2. The cavalry seem to be more realistic (atleast to me), if they charge a well braced, deep ranked unit, plus on guard mode, they will get slaughtered, no matter how well armoured they are. However, if they manage to make a proper charge, at a thin unit, or one that is manouvering (not stationed), they will chop it up and rout it instantly.

[Cheetah]

It seems like there are a lot of conflicting accounts of the quality of cavalry and cavalry charges around here. Some say they are moronic ninnies who shy away from charges at the last second and gently caress the enemy when they do charge. Others, like Dorkus, claim cavalry to be unstoppable killing machines that explode through enemy ranks like a sledgehammer on a watermelon. I can't wait to see what this is all about when I get it in a few days.

It depends on whther you played a custom game (like Dorkus) or campaign battles (or MP). In custom games 1 knight vs 1 armoured sergeant knights feel like sledgehammer. In a campaign battle or in MP where you have terrain, other troops, and and an eager opponent to outmanouver you a clean cav charge is a lot more difficult make, thus cav does not feel to be overpowered, in fact it is not overpowered at all.

[Bullethead]

I have yet to get M2TW myself, so I'm hoping to get some answers from those of you who have it.....

In the sticky about battle map research, RomoR posted that infantry in loose formation was MUCH more effective at stopping cav than dense infantry. I can't verify this myself, of course, so I'd like to see if somebody else can verify this result.

As I understand it, the root problem seems to be that the whole cav unit stops charging as soon as any 1 man of it encounters a defender. This is combined with the cav being able to inflict its charge bonus damage on everybody it meets at once. Thus, if you have a dense formation of infantry, the cav can hit the whole front rank at once and kill them all, with massive morale loss to the infantry their subsequent rout. OTOH, if the cav unit hits a handful of dispersed defenders, those guys are toast but they stop the charge, allowing the rest of the infantry to close in and flank the cav, cutting it to pieces. Therefore, it's in the infantry's best interest to be in loose, thin formation when receiving a charge. This, of course, is completely at odds with everything history has handed down to us. So if that's how M2TW works, it really needs to be fixed.

Note: the above is assuming the cav REALLY charges home (lances instead of swords), which apparently is done by single-clicking on the target instead of double-clicking on it. So please don't get into how to make cav charge properly, just check to see if loose formation is a better formation in which to receive a charge than tight formation.

[danfda]

I've also seen the cavalry's infamous "walking charge," and it is infuriating. They are panzers when you can give them the time and room and they actually charge, but it seems they have a very strong aversion to doing just that. In cities and castles, good luck. If you can get them to charge, then you're a better man (or woman as it may be) than I. I have all but given up on the single click, panzer charge unless my cav are in a great position (which does happen and is an awesome sight). Otherwise I've been using the less effective double-click charge variety, and I suffer much greater casualty levels than in previous incarnations of TW. I am hoping that this lil' ol' issue gets fixed...

On a related note, do your troops seem less responsive than ever? I click and tell them to go somewhere, and even if they aren't engaged they tend to ignore me. I end up clicking several times, and then they seem to get confused and I get confused...eventually it all works out okay, but that too can be frustrating...

[IPoseTheQuestionYouReturnTheAnswer]

My cav haven't been showing any significant problems from what I've seen. As the Turks, I use armies comprised 100% of cavalry and just hire merc infantry along the way to attack cities. Even though I have access to Janissary Heavy Infantry, I still field all-cavalry armies and just use the Janissaries to garrison highly important or squalorous border cities, like Constantinople. I find that infantry just slow down factions that rely on cavalry, because even horse archers can cause huge casualties in a charge in M2TW.

That said, it's not difficult to kill a cavalry unit once you've pinned it down. I can't tell you how many Byzantine family members, who lead units of kataphraktoi, that I've killed with simple spear militia. But against armies that are completely composed of cavalry, it's impossible to get enough infantry to bog them down and stop them. Usually I just shoot up the enemy army, surround it, and charge in when I run out of ammo. By that time, they're so weak and demoralized that the whole army routs almost instantly upon contact.

I haven't really formed an opinion on how powerful cavalry are. They're powerful, that's for sure, but I don't think they're OVERpowered, though I need more playtime to fully determine that.