Unusually weak and strong units

**lars573** · 11-20-2006, 05:30

Crusader knights aren't that great (they are a crusade merc unit). Order knights (Hospitallers, Templars, Teutons) I haven't taken afeild yet.

**Quillan** · 11-20-2006, 05:44

Based on what Orda Khan found in his comparisons, what seems to make the Janissary Heavy Infantry (and the Danish one, whose name I can't remember) so effective is their reach. They lose a lot of men on impact, but once they kill everyone who can reach them, they pretty much wipe up everyone else because they can't be touched anymore.

With the Varangian Guard, what I've noticed is that they attack vvvveerrrrryyyyy sllllooooowwwwwlllllyyyyyyyyy. They work pretty well as flankers, though. I've switched over to dismounted Byzantine lancers and dismounted latinkon for heavy infantry in my Byzantine game.

The Byzantine top end horse archer, the Vardariotai, is extremely good. They wear armor, by default I think their melee is 11 and missile is 9, fast moving, good morale and good stamina.

**Dorkus** · 11-20-2006, 22:14

Thanks Quillan.

Very interesting, but also very annoying. How are we supposed to figure out which unit is superior, if not by unit stats? Or at least some qualitiative description of a unit's abilities?

I don't remember the ratings of JHI and VG on the printed chart -- does the chart do better in approximating unit combat value? Or do we simply look at unit cost as a proxy of combat value?

Very annoying.

**Quillan** · 11-20-2006, 22:20

Varangian Guard, by default, are attack 20, armor 6, 3 shield, and 6 defense skill. They cost 530 to recruit and 150 or 175 to maintain, IIRC. Their attack is armor piercing, too. I think the Janissary heavy infantry is attack 12 or so.

Like you, I'm finding the stats aren't a good guideline of how effective the unit is. Byzantine cavalry, for example, is melee 7 and missile 6, if I'm not misremembering the stats. However, they absolutely decimate even chivalric knights when used as skirmishers. The knights (and any well armored and shielded unit, for that matter) stand up pretty well from the front, but the moment the cav gets around the unshielded side, or the knights turn their backs to move back to their lines, they start dropping quickly.

**Slaists** · 11-20-2006, 22:21

I guess, part of the story is also, where a unit's defense comes from. If it mostly comes from the shield, the units is likely to lose easily if flanked or attacked from the rear.

**wraithdt** · 11-20-2006, 22:37

I find this intriguing that the stats of most units if not all in M2TW doesn't really reflect how powerfully or weak a unit is anymore.

Either the stats are wrong or there something else thats working under the hood that we're not seeing. In both cases I can't really rely on the unit stat's to tell me whats good and whats not; I'll have to field test each unit from now on.

**Kobal2fr** · 11-20-2006, 23:41

Oddly enough, I've lost one and a half units of militia spearmen to a single peasant unit. That may be because spears have been toned down significantly, but they were still 5/7 soldiers being wiped out by 4/3/low morale idiots :/

Granted, the peasants did get the charge bonus into their shield wall, but I expected them to get slaughtered as the fight dragged on... only they didn't. Weird.

**Marquis of Roland** · 11-20-2006, 23:48

I've noticed missile troops don't go down as easily as they used to. Attacking a rebel town, 1 unit of 0 chevron crossbowmen defeated 1 of my 1 chevron spear militia, who charged the crossbowmen. They did pretty well against mailed knights too.

**BigTex** · 11-20-2006, 23:53

Originally Posted by wraithdt

I find this intriguing that the stats of most units if not all in M2TW doesn't really reflect how powerfully or weak a unit is anymore.

Either the stats are wrong or there something else thats working under the hood that we're not seeing. In both cases I can't really rely on the unit stat's to tell me whats good and whats not; I'll have to field test each unit from now on.

This happened in RTW also. The reach of the unit and the density of the formation have alot more effect then most think. Puting a units spacing down to the smallest factor can make a horrible unit nearly impregnable when in guard mode and facing frontal attacks. Also the reach of the less shielded units is very important, without a shield most attacks against them will suceed so they must outreach their foe's. Something I've noticed with the varangian guard is that they are weak once they close in tight with the enemy. They have good reach but that's meaningless up close. Also they are excellent chargers, 1 guy on a charge can cleave 2-3 enemies in a swoop with that axe.

There might be more at work also, but that will be impossible to know until there's an unpacker.

~edit: Also you may try keeping the Varangian guard and other long reach opponents in guard mode. A disciplined formation is very effective when you can outreach the opponent.

**Basileus** · 11-21-2006, 00:08

One unit that has impressed me is the Norman knight both mounted and dismounted, realy tough and you can get it realy early aswell.

**Dorkus** · 11-21-2006, 00:12

Just to be clear, by "printed chart" i was referring to the actual paper chart of units in the box. It seems to me that the attack and defense ratings on that chart do a much better job of approxmating unit combat value than the in-game stats. (They diverge signficantly from the in-game stats.)