MTW 2 Review from an EB / RTR player perspective

[Copperhaired Berserker!]

EdwardL, did you play on VH/VH? Because in MTW2, the higher the difficulty, the better the AI (No stupid stat boosts or anything like that. It actually improves the AI.) There is a few AI bugs needing sorted out but there you go.

[Subedei]

Concerning the AI invasion thing:

I only play on m/h with the HRE....invading Hungary at that point in time....and guess who knocked on my backdoor? The Moors & a full stacked army led by their heir landing on my [pretty much unprotected] Italian shores. Thank god I had an army in Souther France [which was about to invade Spain] to defend Rome.....

I think the AI on the map ain´t that bad.

[econ21]

Interesting review, although I disagree that the AI is not much improved over RTW.

The campaign AI, in particular, seems smarter. I have played quite a few games of "cat and mouse" with AI stacks. They now seem better at avoiding stronger stacks of mine and trying to work around them. On a couple of occasions, they've also played "double team", moving together to make themselves too strong to attack and even attacking together (unlike in RTW when they would attack sequentially, not simultaneously).

The AI also builds bigger fleets and stacks them more. I had a fleet of 10 ships wiped out by the Danes (ouch).

The first few battles were a shock to the system. I had got used to winning with 10:1 losses as Romans in RTR: PE. But that's rare in M2TW. I think the combat formula has changed - units that look uber in stats (e.g. armored swordsmen) still take significant losses in battle with lesser ones. I don't think it is the VH difficulty skewing things - it is not supposed to - although may be it is.

The AI in battle is ok - the two main limitations are the passive behaviour under my archery (CA has said this is a bug); and the AIs tendency to run its archers too far forward from their supports, making them easy prey for cavalry. Otherwise, the AI tends to keep a decent formation and does not do suicide generals.

Sieges are much improved over RTW, IMO. And the AI seems better at both attacking and defending.

Whatever the reason, I am finding my first M2TW campaign (England on VH/VH) at turn 90, still tighter and more challenging than any TW game before except STW. And also more challenging than playing Romans in RTR and EB. The feeling it gives me is that it is like playing on the old risk maps of STW/MTW. You are always worried that pushing in one direction will leave you exposed in another.

[EdwardL]

My review of the AI was more or less directed at some of the old RTW habit the AI carried, such as its inability to invade Islands and its tendancy to lift sieges for no reason. I really didnt go on to discredit or credit the campaign AI in other regards.

Actually played it on Hard / Hard as HRE to seek a challenge as i knew i would be surrounded by enemies but not be completely swamped by financial restraints. However, having an empire in the middle of Europe, that stretched from Oslo down to Naples, and from Vienna to Antwerp, The AI was not able to take advantage of its position. Take in mind i was surrounded and at war with 7 catholic nations on my borders. The AI was unable to go past my border province castles and lay waste to my soft city-low garrisoned militia settlements. Poland, Venice, and Hungary just kept throwing men away against Fortress Vienna. Venetians would occasionally go for.. Venice, which i kept at city status. but no luck there. France, England, and Milanese "which i migrated to the west" took little opportunity to go for the reich's soft core either. Milanese at first kept going after Genoa and Milan, but then stopped after some time. France later picked that pattern up which by then i had those cities well garrisoned and fortified. the AI just kept banging on the same 3-4 settlements which i fortified. There were no hints of a Hannibalesque AI to be found. Frankfurt, Staufen, Innsbruck, Nurenburg all lightly defended high value cities ripe for the taking. Even Antwerp which was on the border with France seen no action. It was garrisoned on and off with 1-2 generals and 1 militia unit. The only time the AI managed to shock me was when i was initially expanding into southern Italy with my emperors SS division, the Venetians launched a 3 prong assault on Venice, Bologna, and Florence in one turn with 1 stack to each city. Lost all cept Venice which came down to the wire. I moved my southern army back up and easily recapped. The AI went kinda brain dead after that. Now if Poland went for Oslo, Stockholm, or Arhus Via ships, or Venetians went for Naples, Crete, or Palmero I would have been stunned. Otherwise it was the RTW camp AI with a couple new tricks up its sleeve

[Obelics]

Whatever the reason, I am finding my first M2TW campaign (England on VH/VH) at turn 90, still tighter and more challenging than any TW game before except STW. And also more challenging than playing Romans in RTR and EB. The feeling it gives me is that it is like playing on the old risk maps of STW/MTW. You are always worried that pushing in one direction will leave you exposed in another.

well, im quiet agree for the Campaign Map, i think is the strong point of m2tw, with all that agents, merchant, princhess etc, but i still like more EB CM.

M2tw is very funny in your first campaign, but after you have finished it, you rather want to retry with another faction.

Regarding the Battles, they are boring, and all Easy. And you forget the nice graphics after 5 minutes of playing. (I'm very very poor sensible to the "cool!!!" factor) and they haven't impressed me, when you become used to the new graphics, you can appreciate even better the EB graphics, and even the RTR graphics, or IberianTW graphics.

so here my personal minivotes (from 1 to 5) for some popular mods (and i say personal, all what i wrote was a personal opinion, very much opinable):

Campaign Map how it is fun, intriguing etc.
M2TW +++
___EB ++++
__RTR +

Cool factor (it may depend, for someone can be the first 5 minutes of play, for others the first hour or even the first day you play, for other people could be it stay for all the time you play, for some people this factor is very important, for others it is useless) example: "wow! look at that building! i must call my friend to show him what i have on my monitor!", "look at that unit, it is very improbable they went to war dressed at that manner, but they are soo cool!"
M2TW +++++
___EB +
__RTR +++

Battles
i dont know, pheraphs im a strange man, but i found them boring. In EB/RTR/ITW at last they have so much different units and you have some tactical choices according to your unit roaster. Despites the great graphics, in M2TW all the units seem the same...
M2TW +
___EB ++
__RTR ++

Replay factor (in the short and medium period)
It is your compulsive wish to play it again...
M2TW ++
___EB +++
__RTR +++

Replay factor PLUS (in the very long period)
It is not a replay compulsive wish, but it is somethink that come from times to times, when you want to reload the mod just to see some units in action, to read a unit description you never had read before, just to see that unit you loved so much if it looks still good as the first time you saw it, ... etc... it's somethink more internal than the above replay factor.
M2TW +
___EB +++++
__RTR +++

all this is not to say i dont like it.
I like it almost the same as i like vanilla RTW.
It is a game, while EB is a more specialized think. Waiting even more for 0.8

[MSB]

Cool factor (it may depend, for someone can be the first 5 minutes of play, for others the first hour or even the first day you play, for other people could be it stay for all the time you play, for some people this factor is very important, for others it is useless)
M2TW +++++
___EB +
__RTR +++

EB is not cool? You HERITIC, the inquisitors of the Papal States will get you for that evil and un-orthodox comment!

Anyway, slightly more seriously: EB is one of those things that is, in theory, a load of generic rubbish that is practically pointless. However in practice it is one of the best things that ever happened to the TW community. So in theory it is rubbish, but in practice it is cooler than anything else that can be bought or downloaded for free. So it deserves at least three +'s.

[Obelics]

EB is not cool? You HERITIC, the inquisitors of the Papal States will get you for that evil and un-orthodox comment!

Anyway, slightly more seriously: EB is one of those things that is, in theory, a load of generic rubbish that is practically pointless. However in practice it is one of the best things that ever happened to the TW community. So in theory it is rubbish, but in practice it is cooler than anything else that can be bought or downloaded for free. So it deserves at least three +'s.

please forgive me, it was not intended a specific hight-end cool factor, for example the first time I loaded the EB mod me too had a great "WOW!", but here i intend a "generic" low-end cool factor, intended for a wild range of people who have a "video-game" approach, so for example shine graphics, hi-res skins, eye candy or whatever you call it, etc. etc.

my only + to EB is intended as a compliment...
and as you can see i gave a +++++, to "replay PLUS" factor, that is a sort of deep addiction factor... me for example after have finished a france campaign with m2tw, returned to EB, and at the view of my mixed greek army composed even of samnite heavy infantry and spearmen and torakitai (my preferred infantry), and xistophoroy cavalry (it was an army trained in center italy) had a strong virtual emotion, it was so better for me...fresh air, "cool!" how someone could say, but im strange, and what is cool for me could be not cool for others.

salut!

PS it's me now that im not agree why "rubish" in theory? In theory it is an extreme Utopistical project, and if you too are a bit an "utopistical/idealistical" soul, you can understand it even better...
anyway i understood your joke, so this was just to explain my point.

[MSB]

Yes, it is ideal, but before I played EB I hated the idea. This was due to CA saying how historical accuracy can destroy gameplay and how rubbish and incomplete mod skins would be. When I started playing EB I loved it and found it much more entertaining than RTW vanilla, however. Henceforth I thought it was terrible at first, but I thought it was brilliant after I had played it.

[Dram]

The first few battles were a shock to the system. I had got used to winning with 10:1 losses as Romans in RTR: PE. But that's rare in M2TW. I think the combat formula has changed - units that look uber in stats (e.g. armored swordsmen) still take significant losses in battle with lesser ones. I don't think it is the VH difficulty skewing things - it is not supposed to - although may be it is.

why wouldent it?. assuming that they have not changed the difficulty levels from RTW, the enemy gets +7 to attack and morale on every unit.

[econ21]

why wouldent it?. assuming that they have not changed the difficulty levels from RTW, the enemy gets +7 to attack and morale on every unit.

Read Palamedes blog on difficulty levels. He says there are no such stat hikes and so far, I believe him.