M2, HRE Tests PBEM

[Lucjan]

Well, here are my ideas for balancing city economic power with castle military power.

Castle Perks

1 - Cities have to pay an additional 25% rounded to the nearest tens place for units they must recruit from a castle, and + 1 florin for every two men in the unit for compensation in the castle player's population loss. This additional recruitment cost goes to the castle holder as his payment for providing a service. For example. On huge settings a mailed knights unit costs 650 to recruit, and consists of 80 men. So the math looks like this.

Additional Base Cost: 650 x .25 = 162.5 rounded to 160.
Population Loss Compensation: 160 + 40 for the cost of eighty men = 200
Total Cost for Mailed Knights purchased from Castle: 650+200 = 850

Or for Spear Militia.
Additional Base Cost: 310 x .25 = 77.5 rounded to 80.
Population Loss Compensation: 80 + 60(provided a unit is 120 men, which I think it is, but I'm not sure) = 140
Total Cost for Spear Militia purchased from Castle: 310+140 = 450

While the total unit cost is still spent on building the unit itself, the extra funds are kept by the castle lord for compensation for his time and manpower. So ordering a unit of mailed knights and two spear militia from Staufen would cost Staufen 320 population, they would gain 480 florins profit.

These recruitment costs might look large, but take into consideration from an RP perspective that this castle is giving up significant portions of its population to fill the ranks of another duke's army, and they still have to make a profit over the initial base cost of the recruitment.

Hmm..oh, and castles cannot charge extra if they have armor or weapon upgrades, as these don't actually raise the initial base cost of recruitment, and the castle would make them as part of the standard procedure if they were recruiting the unit for themselves anyway.

2 - Only players with a castle can build watch towers and forts. This would reflect the availability of people with the knowledge of proper terrain use and strategic military placement in castles as compared to the more domestic or urban based construction skills of engineers and architects available in cities.



Hmm...not sure on too much of anything besides that. In the spirit of balancing castles with cities, I don't want to overbalance anything, as players will undoubtedly gain control of territories encompassing both a castle and a city, or could alter their lands to be so, these balancing works are really for earlier game balance issues.

[econ21]

Here is a "synthesis" set of rules. Apologies for the length. If I have left out some ideas, it is deliberate - usually for simplicity. Lucjan and any others can suggest amendments.

BTW, on the castle thing - it's worse than it looks from my table, as cities can raise taxes to VH and castles can't. Personally, in my solo English game, I tend to think that only castles are (almost) worth building in - most of the city buildings seem unexciting compared to investing to get the better troops of the castle. The last clause in these rules is a possible workaround - I've decided to restrict obtaining Ducal troops to Ducal castles, not the Imperial castle at Staufen. This should help ensure that at least in the early game, Dukes with castles are well treated by their richer peers in cities.


Rules


How to play – in brief

Players are either Dukes or Counts (collectively “nobles”). Both will have an in-game character (typically a general) or avatar who will represent them.

A key difference between Dukes and Counts is that Dukes micromanage the movement of their avatar and any troops and settlements they control. For example, if he gets into a battle, the Duke is expected to download the savegame and fight the battle. Counts are suitable for players who cannot or do not want to do that.

Dukes will govern specific settlements – cities or castles. They will decide what buildings and troops to purchase, subject to their own resources. Counts may also do this, with some provisos.

Collectively, the nobles form the Imperial Diet where each has one vote.

Every tenth turn, the Imperial Diet will elect a Chancellor. The Chancellor will be the “reigning player” and execute the orders of the Dukes, as well as control central (“Imperial”) assets such as the capital (Frankfurt), the Imperial castle (Staufen) and the Imperial army.

Every five turns, the Imperial Diet will be in session. When in a session, nobles will vote on “edicts” that mandate the Chancellor to specific action. Crucially, these include authorising declarations of war and the setting of taxes.

Game settings

*MT2TW unmodded (but hopefully patched for the real thing).
*Hard campaigns, very hard battles.
*Large unit size.
*Battle timer on. Show CPU Moves, Manage all Settlements
Standard victory conditions (45 provinces, including Jerusalem).

Hard restrictions on play: * only two land units (including a general) may travel on each ship.

How to play - detailed rules


1. Logistical matters

1.1. When the Chancellor announces a new turn, he will post the savegame for the start of that turn. He will also post the current financial balance of each Duke.

1.2. During the 48 hours after posting the save, there will be an “orders phase.” During this time, each Duke can give orders for:
(a) troop movements
(b) construction and recruitment in his settlement(s) subject to his current balance.
(c) tax rates
Often they will have no changes to their prior orders. If no orders are received, the Duke’s forces cannot be moved and all their balance is saved. Players are to place any movement orders they have for their army or units in their army in the Ducal Commands thread. Orders should be clear and detailed enough to be understood.

Ex 1 - Duke of Staufen - I'm ordering the movement of my Avatar, 2 Mailed Knights, 3 Spear Militias, and 2 Peasant Archers from the Castle of Staufen to march westwards. Their target is the bridge on the river crossing between the Staufen Region and the Metz Region. Next turn, order them to Besiege Metz.

Ex 2 - I want to recruit 1 unit of Mailed Knights and 2 units of peasant militia from the Castle of Staufen.

1.3. The Chancellor will then execute these orders to the best of his abilities (this - and the management of accounts - must be done strictly ooc - no manipulating orders, fiddling the books etc).

1.4. If a Duke’s army gets into a battle, the Chancellor will upload the savegame and PM the Duke. The Duke will have 48 hours from the sending of the PM to play the battle and upload a new save, or the battle will be autoresolved.

1.5. Troop movements – Dukes may only have one army in the field. Reinforcements can be moved in separate stacks, but must not exceed five units. The Chancellor will control his own Ducal army and the Imperial army, both single stacks. Stacks may be merged but unless players are gifting units, the Chancellor must keep track of units. Armies 5 units or less in strength that are being transferred between players count as part of the receiving player's ducal army, draw income from the receiving player's total income, and do not penalise the receiving player while they are en route to the receiving player. Basically, until they reach the Ducal army, they count as part of it income wise, but not physically until they actually join up. This is to avoid contradicting the "1 standing army per player" rule.

1.6. If an army conquers a new settlement, that settlement belongs to the owner of the conquering army - i.e. a Duke or the Empire.

1.7. If there are players wishing to join the game as Dukes who do not have a settlement, any settlement conquered by an Imperial army will be offered to them. Any settlement conquered by a Ducal army may be offered to them at the discretion of the Duke. If such an offer is made, the new Duke owes a debt of gratitude to his patron. If such an offer is not made, other nobles may take a dim view of the conqueror.

1.8. A Duke who has not given orders and has not actively participated, without giving prior notice that they may be temporarily unavailable, can be dispossessed of his lands and relegated to the role of a Count. If they do not give orders for 10 consecutive terms, they may be removed from the game.


1.9. Dukes who are unable to play for a period of time may transfer management of their lands and armies to another Duke (e.g. the Chancellor), acting as their steward. However, the steward, not the absentee Count/Duke, will have authority over their lands and armies and battles led by their Count/Duke’s avatar must be autoresolved.

1.10. This is a cooperative game - Dukes cannot leave the Empire and become autonomous states.


2. Money matters

2.1. Purchases - Dukes, including the Chancellor, can spend up to their current balance in their own settlement(s) on buildings or troops; or they may save the balance. The Chancellor can also spend up to the Imperial balance on Imperial settlements, agents or ships, or may save the balance.

2.2 Only the Chancellor can purchase and move agents or fleets. He may buy them from other Duke’s settlements with Imperial funds, overriding their build orders if necessary.

2.3. Four Dukes will start the game with one settlement and its garrison each. Frankfurt (the capital) and Staufen are Imperial settlements. The leaderless army in the north is the Imperial army. Other players are landless Dukes or Counts until settlements (and, for all but two, avatars) become available for them.

2.4. The starting balance of 6000 florins is to be divided 1000 to each Duke and 2000 to the Imperial treasury. All florins from capturing a settlement are to be evenly divided between the Dukes, with the Empire receiving a share equivalent to two Dukes.

2.5. For Dukes, current balances are equal to previous balances plus net profits from their settlements. Net profits are gross profits minus Imperial taxes. Gross profits are settlement income minus corruption and minus Army support costs.

2.6. Imperial taxes are lump sums set by 5-turn edicts. They start fixed at gross profits at the start of the game. Only the Chancellor can propose a tax edict. If it is rejected by a Reichstag vote, taxes remain fixed at previous levels.

2.7. The Imperial treasury is to pay for the Imperial army, ships, agents and any sums spent on diplomacy. Revenue accrues to the Imperial treasury from Imperial settlements (just as with Dukes, but with zero tax) and from Imperial taxes. Any sums gained from diplomacy, from ransoms, from missions and from conquering settlements accrue to the Empire. Any troops given as rewards for missions also come under Imperial control. .

2.8. Dukes may pay others to recruit troops for them. The price is negotiable, but for troops bought from a castle, should be at least the recruitment price plus 25%. (This is to compensate castles which are poorer, as they have much less opportunity for economic buildings and cannot raise taxes, but have access to the best troops).

2.9. The Chancellor will keep separate track of his personal settlements and troops, and the Imperial settlements and troops. Imperial income goes straight to the Imperial Armies upkeep and straight into Imperial Coffers. The Chancellor cannot touch the Imperial Territory's income or men for his personal usage. Only his own ducal lands can help him maintain his ducal army and his own ducal strength.


3. The Imperial Diet

3.1. The Imperial Diet will meet in session every 5 turns. Out of session, there can be open debate and deliberations. Each session lasts 3 days.

3.2. At each session, nobles can propose edicts. These require one seconder to be put to the vote.

3.3. Edicts can cover the use of the Imperial army, budgets, fleets, agents and diplomacy. They can also cover the allocation of Imperial settlements (e.g. to landless Dukes) and the coordination of military campaigns (e.g. instructing Duke X to help the Imperial Army). Edicts can transfer Imperial assets to individual Dukes ("privatisation" or rebating surplus tax revenue etc) However, they cannot transfer resources from individual Dukes to Imperial control (no expropriation) except via the setting of taxes. Edicts cannot directly mandate the movement of Ducal armies or spending of Ducal budgets. They could conceivably try to do this - e.g. asking a Duke to help out somewhere. But Dukes can always defy the wishes of the Reichstag on the movement of their armies or spending of their budgets. Dukes would do so at their peril. Dukes cannot defy the taxman, however, and if unhappy with an uncooperative Duke, the Imperial Diet could impose punitive taxes.

3.4. Any declaration of war must be authorised by an Imperial edict. The Chancellor or any Duke is empowered to declare war on a non-allied army entering its lands.

*3.5. The rules of the game can be changed by a Noble Charter Amendments (2/3 majority required) except those marked with a *.

3.6. Tied edicts fail. If contradictory edicts are passed, the one with the most votes takes priority.

3.7. Edicts can only last for 5 turns.

3.8. Every 10 turns (or on the death or impeachment of the Chancellor), there is an election for the post of Chancellor. One noble one vote. Ties lead to a fresh ballot. A second tie is decided by seniority (avatar age). Voting is open for 2 days.

*3.9. The Chancellor can be impeached and removed from office by a 2/3 majority of the Imperial Diet.

*3.10. The Imperial Diet is presided over by the character controlling the Emperor. His rulings are final. The Prince can preside in the absence of the Emperor. The Emperor can call an emergency session of the Imperial Diet - freeze the game - at will. The Emperor can also resolve conflicts between players - for example, in a dispute over a division of the spoils - by decree. Although the Emperor will be a Duke, he will adjudicate ooc in an impartial manner. If he is personally involved in a dispute, he will delegate judgement to the Prince if the Prince is not party to a dispute.


4. Counts

4.1. Counts are suitable for players who would like to participate either do not have the game or do not want download savegames etc.

4.2. Counts have full voting rights in the Imperial Diet and are expected to make most of their contribution there. They should focus on debate and policymaking - since they do not download savegames, they should not get too involved in the minutae of orders etc.

4.3. However, a Count may be given a settlement by a Duke, who becomes the Count’s patron. The patron remains in formal control of the settlement. (He is the only one downloading the savegame and is best informed.) However, the Duke should try to accommodate the Count’s wishes. In return, the Count is expected to vote in accordance with the Duke’s wishes, unless given a free vote. The Count may always renounce his inheritance and seek a new patron if unsatisfied with the relationship; and the Duke may seek a new Count to run their settlement.

4.4. In addition, a Count may be given a settlement by the Empire although preference will be given to landless Dukes (players who will fight battles). The Chancellor (the office, not the man) then acts as the Duke’s patron. He has formal control of the settlement, but the Count can vote freely.

4.5. The movement of the Count’s avatar is decided by the Count’s patron or, if he has no patron, by the Chancellor. The Count may petition to be moved in a certain way, but lacking access to a savegame, this is neither expected nor binding. If frustrated, Counts may show their displeasure by voting or other political actions.

4.6. A Count can always become a Duke (if the player wants to start playing battles etc). A Duke can always become a Count (if the player has to be away for a while). But if the latter change is to be temporary, the Duke must identify another Duke to be steward of their lands.

4.7. A Count is normally given a general as an avatar. However, they could instead take on an agent (they can be “honorary Counts” sort of like the Bishops who sit in the UK House of Lords). I advise against players taking on roles of merchants, spies and assassins, they're all lost far too easily. However, I see no issues with a priestly, diplomatic or princess avatar. A Priestly avatar may actually be highly interesting if by chance the player actually finds himself sitting on the Papal throne.


5. Inter-character relations

5.1. Players are expected to role-play their avatars - act according to their stats and traits. For example, loyal generals should cooperate with the Consul. Chivalrous generals should cooperate with other nobles and be merciful with enemies (the player fighting the battle gets to decide what to do with prisoners, but any ransoms go to the Imperial treasury). Generals with high dread may be less amenable with other nobles and should be merciless with enemies. Pious generals should build religious buildings and agitate to go on crusades.

5.2. In the mid-term session of the Imperial Diet (only), the Chancellor receives bonus votes equal to half the Emperor’s authority, rounded up. This is to help them see through their agenda.

5.3. Nobles may enter binding contracts with each other. These should be posted in the Noble commands thread and agreed to by all sides. The Chancellor must enforce these contracts and there can be no reneging. Possible contracts include but are not limited to trades (e.g. men for florins) and loans (with a mutually agreed rate of interest and duration).

5.4. When a Duke dies, he will simply choose a spare avatar as an heir and continue to play with that land. If there is no spare avatar, the Chancellor will manage the Dukedom as a separate entity until one becomes available.

5.5. Ducal armies may work together to take a province. It is up to player to allow the borrowing of their armies.

Example 1 - Metz is heavily fortified by the French, the Duke of Staufen thinks with some help from Innsbruck he can take Metz. The Duke of Innsbruck agrees to lend the Duke of Staufen an additional 10 units (which still operate under Innsbruck's income, as the troops are not loan, not sale) This boosts Staufen's army significantly and the Duke of Staufen then controls these units until Metz falls, at which time they return to the Duke of Innsbruck's control, and the Duke of Staufen-Metz gives the Duke of Innsbruck whatever it was he wanted in exchange for the army loan, lets say the agreement was the first 3 turns worth of income from Metz go to Innsbruck in exchange for the army loan.

Example 2 - The Duke of Nuremburg and the Duke of Prague both have a ducal army in Stettin, both have just taken out equally sized Danish armies. Both are poised to besiege Stettin. This is a dilemma that is up to the two dukes to work out between each other. Or the Emperor may step in and use his power of decree to say that no matter who takes Stettin, Stettin will become Imperial Territory until the next edict session, at which point the conflict will be resolved in a vote.

5.6. When offered a guild, the Chancellor can use his discretion over whether to accept (I don't think we can save at this point). Dukes may specify in advance which guilds they would or would not want accepted - the Chancellor should honour those wishes, but these instructions must be clearly posted as standing orders.

5.7. Dukes cannot buy, borrow or receive troops from Imperial settlements; they cannot enter contracts with the Chancellor to borrow or gift money from Imperial assets etc. Imperial assets are strictly ringfenced for Imperial use (exception: edicts can transfer Imperial assets; this rule 5.7 is about private trades not extending to include Imperial settlements; it is not to limit edicts). But this is asymmetric - Dukes can gift or lend the Empire troops or money (e.g. in a crisis). They cannot receive payment or interest for such actions though (again a specific edict might include a quid pro quo and that would allowed; this is about private trades).

[Tamur]

Looks superb econ, thanks for spending the amount of time this must have taken, very well worth it to have it all lined out so well. And that last para (5.7) is exactly what's needed to foster cooperation. If there's no source but castle-endowed Dukes for good troops, then those castles will be highly prized.

A couple of amendment suggestions...

2.4. The starting balance of 6000 florins is to be divided 1000 to each Duke and 2000 to the Imperial treasury. All florins from capturing a settlement are to be evenly divided between the Dukes, with the Empire receiving a share equivalent to two Dukes.

I think this paragraph ought also to mention

1. the division of income from the completion of missions, probably in the same vein as the split mentioned for capturing a settlement (equal parts to Dukes, with double-Duke portion to the Empire), and...
2. some sort of rule about who controls troops given as reward for mission completion. I would suggest that these come under imperial control rather than trying to split them amongst four+ Ducal armies.

5.3. Nobles may enter binding contracts with each other. These should be posted in the Noble commands thread and agreed to by all sides. The Chancellor must enforce these contracts and there can be no reneging. Possible contracts include trades (e.g. men for florins) and loans (with a mutually agreed rate of interest and duration).

A small amendment here: the last line "Possible contracts include..." could be changed to "Possible contracts include, but are not limited to, ..." since Dukes should be able to enter into any sort of contract with each other (i.e. lending of troops for X number of turns, formal agreements of long-term military assistance, etc).

[Ignoramus]

I dislike the Reichstag and Chancellor names. It makes this sound like WWII Germany, not Germany in the Middle Ages. I think "Imperial Diet" and "Emperor" are far more fitting.

[econ21]

Good suggestions, Tamur. For simiplicity, let's give the mission rewards to the Empire, rather than divide them. Sacking a settlement can give serious money - 20k or more sometimes. But missions tend to be smaller sums - 1k or so - and not really worth the bother of dividing.

I dislike the Reichstag and Chancellor names. It makes this sound like WWII Germany, not Germany in the Middle Ages. I think "Imperial Diet" and "Emperor" are far more fitting.

OK - let's compromise; keep the Chancellor name but switch to Imperial Diet.

I got "Reichstag" from the Wikipedia entry on the HRE, but going back to it, it appears the name only arose in the late 15th century, so we are not beholden to it. Reich is German for Empire, but maybe in the PBM we just use the word Empire, not Reich, to avoid sounding like we are doing cheap Basil Fawlty-type Hitler impressions?

The Reichstag (German for "Imperial/National Diet") ....However, until the late 15th century, the Reichstag was not actually formalized as an institution. Instead, the dukes and other princes would irregularly convene at the court of the king; these assemblies were usually referred to as Hoftage (from German Hof "court").

You are right, that Emperor should be what we call the reigning player to be true to history. The problem is that we have an avatar walking around called "Emperor X". He and his son are going to be called Emperor for most of the game while the reigning player is swapped around very regularly. It's personal taste, but I just find ignoring the fact that another general is called Emperor hard. Plus we need a fairly permanent Senate Speaker type authority figure and it struck me that could be the use we put the Emperor avatar to (I'm not reserving that avatar for myself, BTW). We are deviating from history a little, I know, but it's a game not a simulation. I think Chancellor has pretty good associations - it's a fairly old term, not just WW2; it's clearly distinct from Emperor/royalty and will avoid confusion; and nowadays its got monetary associations (at least to Brits) which fit with the spreadsheet management duties of the role.

For information, some other terminology from Wikipedia:

An entity was considered Reichsstand (imperial estate) if, according to feudal law, it had no authority above it except the Holy Roman Emperor himself.

Earlier, the Empire's strength (and finances) greatly relied on the Empire's own lands, the so-called Reichsgut, which always belonged to the respective king (and included many Imperial Cities).

WW2 associations not withstanding, I think we can use Reichsstand to refer to each Duke's settlements (Duchy is an ugly word) and Reichsgut to refer to the Imperial settlements. English terminology would be fine as an alternative though.

The "kurfursten" - the elector-princes were the electors for the Emperor. They sat in the Council of Electors.

Initially, there were seven electors: the Count Palatine of the Rhine, the King of Bohemia, the Duke of Saxony, the Margrave of Brandenburg, and the Archbishops of Köln, Mainz, and Trier. During the Thirty Years' War, the Duke of Bavaria was given the right to vote as the eighth elector. In order to be elected king, a candidate had to first win over the electors, usually with bribes or promises of land.

BTW - on the issue of bribes for votes etc. I think it is ok (although not advocated) BUT unlike the real world, in our game, the Chancellor cannot loot the Imperial treasury to get his investment back! (Which we will greatly reduce the incentive for vote buying).

[econ21]

One suggestion - let's trial this game at Medium - not hard - campaign difficulty, very hard battles.

The reason is I am curious about diplomacy. I think most WoS players would like more amenable AI diplomacy - alliances that matter, not always being attacked by neighbours - and I suspect we are more likely to get that on medium than on hard difficulty. The only question is whether that setting would make the game too easy. A trial should show that. If we feel unchallenged, we do the real thing on hard.

AFAIK, M2TW is already hardwired so that the AI gangs up on the human when he becomes the strongest, so even on medium, we probably will get a fairly challenging experience.

HRE is probably not easy anyway, especially with the potential inter-Duke coordination issues.

[Ignoramus]

Ah ok. It seems a shame that Reich sounds so modern. I suppose that's because all of our history books are written in English and naturally use English rather than German words. I see now that there's nothing wrong with Reichstag, but the very word throws me; especially considering that it's Germany's House of Parliament.