As far as charging archers, it seems like the cavalry switch to swords as if they were chasing routing units, because the archers are running away. That will hopefully be remedied though.
Re: How to get a good charge
As far as charging archers, it seems like the cavalry switch to swords as if they were chasing routing units, because the archers are running away. That will hopefully be remedied though.
If I wanted to be [jerked] around and have my intelligence insulted, I'd go back to church.
-Bill Maher
Re: How to get a good charge
I think people are mixing up the jobs the different units and are trying to use heavy calvary in a way that it cannot realistically be used. This is probably because all the other TW games, the charging wasn't realistic, but now it is. I think a LOT of people are trying to use heavy calvary like light calvary.
Heavy Calvary - Shock troops well suited to destroying STATIONARY groups of infantry. Effective in a STRAIT line. Horses bear well over 100kg in weight from armor and rider and such are bread to be huge, stronge, and tough. They are not bread for speed because chasing infantry IS NOT their intended purpose. Lining up, and charging at full speed in a strait line to annihilate stationary or less mobile infantry is however.
Light Calvary - Lightly armored horses and riders. Meant and bread for speed, and traveling stamina. Their low armor (both in protection and weight) make them ill-suited for charging directly into stationary infantry. They are much faster, far more mobile and flexible then heavy calvary and this makes them perfect for; chasing down routing infantry, harassing skirmishers, harassing horse archers, harassing engaged infantry from their flank (with the punch method, not prolonged combat).
You have to use your units right! They are not the same and cannot be used as suc
Expecting your heavy calvary to just march around the field the whole battle at full speed charging over everything in their path is not realistic or logical, it's an arcade style of play. M2:TW is getting more into a simulation aspect of the the battles and away from the point-n-click god mode heavy calvary. You actually have to strategically place your calvary units so they can get a clear strait charge at their target. It's difficult to do effectively, but when you do it annihilates the target. This is how it worked in RL battle and this is now how it works in M2: TW and it's a LOT better. Buggy? yes. But is the mechanic for charging fundamentally bugged and flawed, no. It's the next step in bringing realism into the battle simulation.
I honestly hope they add arcade style calvary into the game as an option in the patch, but I sure won't use it.
Re: How to get a good charge
I just did some tests with Feudal Knights vs Spear Sergeants. The charges worked perfectly every time with the one click method. To withdraw without getting all tangled up with the defending unit, I had to immediately double click to retreat when the cavalry charge hit home.
Using the one click method works extremely well with cavalry. And the cavalry charges are devastating even against spears.
Re: How to get a good charge
I agree that the new MTW2 charge is much more realistic than any of the previous games. Takes a bit more time and effort but is a very good simulation of how charges were done in the medieval time frame.
Still think bowman are bit overpowered though.
Re: How to get a good charge
It might be advantageous (though maybe not necessary) to switch the cavalry that just charged into a unit to guard mode right after the initial impact to get out of melee quicker and prevent any chance of them engaging and getting tangled up. It seems they escape the tangled masses faster when on guard mode.
Re: How to get a good charge
Thought of an interesting way to look at calvary that might help people understand how to use it better:
Think of Heavy calvary is like a giant infantry battering ram. The "parts" to the battering ram are the Knights and the "assembled" battering ram is the knights in formation. The advantage to this, is that, the parts of the ram are self mobile and so, can break down, rapidly move, and quickly reassemble. This assembled ram is like a door ram in that it uses a huge amount of kinetic energy to destroy everything in it's path, but can only transfer the energy in a strait line, and obviously needs to be fully assembled to work. So assemble your ram (your knights) and charge the "ram" into a stationary target. once the forward momentum of the ram is broken, the pieces can dissolve and the reform the ram again. But for the ram to be effective it has to set up so it can transfer it's energy in that strait line again. So the pieces of the ram have to be told to set the ram up again in a good strategic place to maximize it's effectiveness. You are left to tell the pieces where to set up the ram."
Re: How to get a good charge
Very useful mate, thanks, it'll come to great use. Now to practice!
Re: How to get a good charge
Thanks for the write up Hashashiyyin, it was excellent.
I agree whole heartedly.
Gentlemen,
I'd say many of our issues with the game are due to the fact that there is no explanation by the designers on why it is so. Without this, we are using our varied opinions to determine if something is correctly implimented or not.
There are some issue with charging that do seem a little buggy (like only the front rank moving off while the rest sit around watching) but essentially I'd say Hashashiyyin concept is correct.
In many ways gentlemen there is no point arguing but simply learning and adapting. CA have a concept of how Cavalry should work and unless you adapt and learn to use it then you will be forever behind the 8-ball.
Cheers
AG
Last edited by AussieGiant; 11-21-2006 at 03:55.
Re: How to get a good charge
Perfect formation? No, that's unrealistic. But as I have read it, the standard Frankish charge would still be a very cohesive, "standardized" formation that's slighty saw-tooth shaped on the front, to vary the force delivered and allow for penetration through the mini-gaps formed on impact. Keeping this kind of formation, wearing all that amor, over several hundred yards is not farfetched. Do keep in mind that the men doing this have been trained since their youth to live, eat, sleep, breath, and crap combat and war. These men could also move around in their armor like it was a second skin, in a book I just got done reading about Agincourt, there were multiple references to a knight who could scale the underside of a ladder quite nimbly in full "White harness", as full plate mail was referred to in that time period. There was another thread where it was either econ or myddraal who posted a number of references to medieval warrios being big and powerful, and being able to remain rather agile in their various types of armor. Thus the concept of these men in armor, riding their likewise armored horses, which are also bred and trained for battle, in a cohesive and organized manner doesn't seem so unrealistic in the end. I must admit I had a number of preconceived notions about this before I started reading books on the subjects.Originally Posted by Hashashiyyin
Now I will offer that xy1on's statement about turning in a charge will cause lose of cohesion, which to me would translate as to giving a counter-order or telling the cav to do something different in mid-charge, when within their charge distance. Ordering them to perhaps charge the unit to the immediate left or right of the original target, while still several charge-distances (is this a new unit of measure?) away shouldn't entirely destroy the cohesion as it's not as extreme of a course alteration, but the overall unit cohesion should take a hit, that they will have to reform for the most part before hitting the point that they start the final run.
And while some others have posted a few good points to consider such as the waypoints, etc, my opinion still remains that the bottom line is that the level of micromanagement here is too much. I should be able to, through a single double click, order my cav to run across a distance, then when in range, charge at their targets, and they should do this in a cohesive fashion.
Cheers!
"Justice is the firm and continuous desire to render to everyone
that which is his due." - Justinian I
Re: How to get a good charge
I'd like to see a lot more from Hashashiyyin as far as theories on the game go and different tactics and strategies and everything else. I sure hope you continue to provide us with more wonderful and insightful tips and writeups in the years to come of enjoying M2TW. A true asset to the Org!
Re: How to get a good charge
Keep in mind Whacker, this maybe CA's attempt at keeping the power of Cavalry accurate (statistically) while making sure the overpowered cavalry problems in Rome are solved.
Rome was just a cavalry war if you were really worried about winning.
Re: How to get a good charge
A good point, but I really really hope that your proposition isn't the case.
There are better ways on making cavalry appropriately powerful, imo, instead of making a kludgy interface or through interface mechanics. As it stands, I think the charges are decent. Some of the lighter cav units are overpowered, some of the spears are underpowered. My real complaint is cav's staying power in pitched battle, post-charge. They seem to be eaten alive by even peasants, which is utter BS.
Cheers!
"Justice is the firm and continuous desire to render to everyone
that which is his due." - Justinian I
Re: How to get a good charge
I'd say the concept will be kept. By that I mean the whole, set up, facing, unit order, correct terrain and single click.A good point, but I really really hope that your proposition isn't the case.
There are better ways on making cavalry appropriately powerful, imo, instead of making a kludgy interface or through interface mechanics. As it stands, I think the charges are decent. Some of the lighter cav units are overpowered, some of the spears are underpowered. My real complaint is cav's staying power in pitched battle, post-charge. They seem to be eaten alive by even peasants, which is utter BS.
Cheers!
But I agree with your points regarding some balancing issue and staying power after contact...although staying power after contact would not be appropriate for all units :)
Plus a few more bugs that we have spoken about. In the end, a few good patches and this should work out just fine.
The whole double click and forget is not a good thing in my opinion and would represent a step back the Rome cav supremacy days.
A bit of both concepts and we will have a winner in my view.
Re: How to get a good charge
For the record, I gotta respectfully disagree.I for one am nowhere NEAR that capable.
Cheers!
"Justice is the firm and continuous desire to render to everyone
that which is his due." - Justinian I
Re: How to get a good charge
I agree that my idea only works for SP battles with pause Whacker.
It would not work for MP and your single double click and let the AI do the rest is one option, and certainly the easiest=.
But what do you do?
I'd say that if I was CA then I'd keep the SP set up (more complicated) and inform the MP community that this will be the case.
This will keep Cav spamming down in MP and make sure if you want to take them that you allocate time to them so you get the most out of your cav.
Re: How to get a good charge
Or another option, which would be useful irregardless of our discussion here, would be to let the MP game leader limit the number of various types of units in game. For example, max 6 units of cav per player, max x units of type x per player, etc.
Or, an option in the game menu that allows for this (and possibly let the MP game leader select which option). Or make it modable through some means (not likely given much of the game mechanics aren't, but we'll have to see with this iteration of the game).
"Justice is the firm and continuous desire to render to everyone
that which is his due." - Justinian I
Re: How to get a good charge
This isn't necessarily the case. If you refer back to an earlier post of mine, I mentioned how you can set waypoints and not have to pause at all, rather set the initial destination and the charge following it will be automatic. So, in theory, you can just as effectively charge in MP as in SP, no pause necessary.
Oh, and not to be an ass, but lets not highjack Hashashiyyin's excellent thread and keep specific MP discussion where they'd belong. I know I'm not a mod and I hope I don't come off like a douchebag, I'm just saying.
Last edited by Dooz; 11-21-2006 at 05:43.
Re: How to get a good charge
So now, how does one counter a heavy cavalry charge?
Re: How to get a good charge
One endeavours not to be on the receiving end
Seriously though, pikes in deep formation, longbowmen with stakes, your own heavy cavalry, horse archers/crossbowmen/javelins, AP infantry charging in after the knight have spent their momentum, all of those can counter knights efficiently enough. And of course, a castle wall provides adequate protection too ;)
Anything wrong ? Blame it on me. I'm the French.
Re: How to get a good charge
Braced pikes or a higher quality unit of braced spears. Cav generally gets chewed on pretty good when in a melee.
Can you give this a go and see if it works? Be interesting to see your and others findings, I'm travelling and not near my gaming rig so I'm useless for the next week or so.My main complaint with this is that it's still more work that I want to do, and if I want to make a change, I'd have to mess with each individual unit of cav and fix them. In a "standard" army I run with 3 units of cav on each wing, that's potentially 6 times I'd have to do this. In SP it's a pain but doable possibly, but in MP that'd be far too much time taken to correct, imo.
Nar, not being an ass at all mate.But I do think that our discussion have been in line with Mr. Hash's OP about charging mechanics. My apologies if I started us down the SP vs MP balancing, my intent was to provide more examples of why I prefer the "single action solution", so to speak.
Cheers!
"Justice is the firm and continuous desire to render to everyone
that which is his due." - Justinian I
Re: How to get a good charge
I concur with you man, and I have to say that when properly executed, a charge in M2 can be even deadlier than in Rome or any version of the game. Just yesterday I saw a unit of 60 dismounted knights get mauled (6 survivors then route after 5 seconds of fight) by a frontal charge of 20 Knights Hospitalier.
The need for properly preparing before a charge adds to realism, but also breaks the rythm of the game and requires to much micromanagement for an enjoyable experience. The "double-click" behaviour of units is indeed moronic in a normal situation, but can be justified when you want to engage units as soon as possible (ie : reinforce a faltering or routing unit, pursue routers, etc...)
On the other hand, I've had quite a few problems with bad single-click behaviour too. If you're too close to the enemy unit, the soldiers will simply walk slowly to engage without any bonus, and if you're too far they'll take ages to get in position. Single-click to attack and toggle the units to run has so far given me about the same result as a double-click.
How do you think the behaviours should be changed? I personally think it's mostly the single click behaviour that should be changed: if single-click on an enemy, make the units RUN to get into charging position, assemble, then charge. I can't thing of many combat situations when I've clicked on an enemy units and wanted my men to attack slowly. If I want my guys to walk in slowly, I simply click in of empty terrain, usually using the right click thing to lay out my army's position.
As for the double click behaviour, I believe it should be pretty much the same as now: engage as fast as possible, and only charge if the unit is already in the correct position to do so. It should however be smoothed a bit to keep formation as actual professional soldiers would (maybe depending on the unit), and avoid the bug where only the front rank engages. Also chasing routers should be optimised.
Don't take me for a whiner, I am very much enjoying the game as it is, and would prefer CA to take their sweet time to come up with an efficient solution, rather than botch up a patch. Also, am I the only one who thinks they deserve a some vacations? It's summertime in Australia now, and they have all these wonderful beaches full of hot girls who just happen to have that special place in their heart for software developers...
Re: How to get a good charge
Goods point made by all.
Whacker and Wonderland some of those idea would deal with the SP and MP cav charging issue.
Zoltan you have ID'd the bugginess of the charge mechanism right now.
My fix would be to correct the preset motions of those cav units given a single click attack when inside their charge radius up to a point.
Options
1) Outside charge radius. Walk to preset distance. Form up then follow the walk/trot/canter/lances down and bam!!
2) At charge radius. Form up then follow the walk/trot/canter/lances down and bam!!
3) Closer: Form up then, trot/canter/lances down and bam!!
4) Closer: Form up then canter/lances down and bam!!
5) Closer, well at this point or a bit closer then the charge does not work due to lack of space. At this point it would be a simple draw swords and engage with no charge bonus and just using attack values.
With solving the balancing of all Cav units being butrchered by infantry units then I'd say we are getting better.
Sounds easy and I'm sure the CA's guys are just rolling their eyes as it might be hard to do.
What do the 3 of you think?
Last edited by AussieGiant; 11-21-2006 at 06:37.
Re: How to get a good charge
OK, I'm in agreement with your ideas, with a few points I'd like to offer additionally.
1. I'm assuming with your suggestion you meant a single click attack, by the "walk up to them then go at it." If I double click, then I want them to run up, then charge.
2. I like your idea for the charge points and conditions. I think that having a linear scaling charge bonus that decreases with proximity as the chargers gets closer to the chargees is outstanding and would help nerf the "full charge bonus from 2 ft away" problem.
3. As an aside, I think the cav in M2TW are not nearly as cohesive in running and charging as the RTW cav were, when my opinion is they should have been opposites. Making my cav run to a point in M2TW, then tend to get out of formation rather badly, when in RTW they'd stay in formation quite nicely. The situation should be reversed historically. Knights in medieval times knew how to fight as individuals, but they also understood all too well that in strength there is numbers, and how to charge home in a coordinated manner. It just feels too haphazard in M2TW. Somewhere in between in terms of keeping unit cohesion would be ideal, imo. I think this will also help with some of the other complaints regarding charging cav bugs.
Great discussion guys.
"Justice is the firm and continuous desire to render to everyone
that which is his due." - Justinian I
Re: How to get a good charge
1) yes I did mean single left click for those options.
2) Your double click might be a tag powerful though. And yes my options was intended to make sure there is no short ranged missile attacks
3) I agree, but I do believe this has something to do with the general unit cohesion bug with regard to the first rank running off by itself while the rest sit around watching.
Although there is specific mention of knights not being disciplined in the unit descriptions. Maybe these units would tend to get out of formation more than other disciplined cav units. You have to keep this in mind also, especially the Frenchies!!
I also agree. Good discussion!!
Re: How to get a good charge
Well I was ready to test the cavalry charge concept out in my Venician campaign tonight. Unfortunately, the AI beat me to it.
Milan had one large, well balanced army with 3 commanders guarding their capital in their last province. I was outnumbered about 1400 to 1000 but was fully confident of victory. The Milan army was well balanced but I had a slight advantage in cavalry.
My left flank was formed of 4 Spear militia and 4 crossbows backed up by one unit of Venetian heavy infantry. All 5 of my heavy cavalry units and one mounted sergeant unit were on my right. The standard arrow exchange began and as it neared the end, I decided to move my heavy cavalry onto their left flank. I was going to use my left flank as an anvil and use the cavalry to roll up their left.
Unfortunately, the AI struck first. Three hvy cavalry units moved through their bowman. I quickly formed all my spearmen into schiltrons. Then the cavalry hit, catching and annihilating one slow crossbow unit, but also hitting my infantry hard. They quickly pulled back and launched another cavalry charge. My backup heavy infantry with the hammers were too slow to catch their cavalry before they pulled back. Then came a heavy line of infantry to hit what was left of my 4 militia spear units.
In the meantime, my cavalry hit their left flank trying to retrieve the situation. Unfortunately, their flank was guarded by a sergeant spear unit which prevented me from assisting my right flank infantry. I couldn't get past them fast enough....
My infantry and crossbows were basically wiped out. My Venetian hvy infantry unit survived with one man left but they fought very well and never broke. Ultimately, my cavalry won the battle but not many were left alive.
I won't forget that battle anytime soon. The AI's classic charge was impressive.
Lesson learned. Have at least some cavalry backing up my infantry line.
Re: How to get a good charge
In some of my other battles, I noticed when units run away, like skirmishers, the charge goes in with swords instead of lances. The problem is skirmishers will usually turn around and fight. Swords might be fine against routing units but not so good when a running unit stops and fights.
Re: How to get a good charge
Aye, the charge instructions given here are for charging a stationary line. Took some cav earlier against various militia units and slaughtered them. Anything but heavy Halberd/Pike dies in spectacular fashion... if it is standing still. So skimishers tend to throw off charges. Best thing to do with them is either range attack with your own skimishers are pull a hammer and anvil situation.
Magnum
Re: How to get a good charge
I just want to throw in my 2 cents too.
I like the basic idea behind the cav in M2. The idea that you cannot just fire-and-forget the cav and that you have to look for proper range for the charge.
Still, there are problems:
- some more automated actions would be nice. If I am at good range for a charge, the cav should line up and turn to face the enemy on their own if I single click them, and then charge as it does now. Micromanaging the unit to face perfectly is a waste of playing time. The turning and adjusting by the unit it self can take a moment, and as long as it is automatic, I have no problems with it.
- cav staying power... A knight fighting on a barded horse with a sword should fare better against undisciplined infantry. Spears should still be good in defending against cav and bracing for charges, but not just killing the cav so fast as now the stationary knights seem to be made out of paper.
- chasing routed/retreating units can still use swords, as I suppose the idea is that moving troops are not a good target for lance charges. I would not have a problem with lance charges done in straight lines at the escaping foes either.
In general I would prefer slightly more automated behaviour in the charges.
Total war games played so far:
STW, MTW, MTW:VI, RTW, MTW2, ETW, STW2
Re: How to get a good charge
I edited and recompiled a updated version of the charging guild to answer some of the raised questions and put it all in one post. find it here :)
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=72768
Re: How to get a good charge
Cav staying power is an issue. That should be solved with a patch. Of course this is only true for some units. Leaving cavalry engaged with swordman, or heavy infantry will usually result in a loss as there are far more of them than cavalry.
With some of the points you raise Rothe, then I think it will work well.
And Jagger.
Can I make a suggestion. Form your cav on YOUR left flank and attach the enemies right flank. Shields are on the left arm of units so missile and cav units should be more effective out there.
You did it the other way around in your example.
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