How to get a good charge

[BeeSting]

I would argue that the game is attempting to simulate medieval battles. Its the reason for variables like moral, fatigue, experience and defence to name a few. There is no question about CA is trying to accomplish here. I would agree with Whacker about the infantry and the football field and the self preservation. Would you charge an enemy unit while the rest of your unit stood there and watched? Would you like to be the guy at the tip of a wedge? Can you sprint 100 yards without loosing your breath? I doubt it. Infantry and Cavalry are much different, however. I would expect my cav to sprint 100, 200, 300 or more straight yards, keep formation, and deliver a charge without stopping. If the cavalry must turn while running, they are going to loose formation though. The horses on the outside of the turn would have to run faster durring the turn, to keep a stright formation. Looks good on paper but I doubt you could coordinate this in the heat of battle, and here is where the self preservation comes in again. The cav turns, the cav looses formation, the cav wants to get back into formation before charging.

Well said...

[Modestus]

I will not argue with any of your conclusions except to say that the behavior of units in custom battles is completely different from the behavior of units in the campaign. I will take note of what you said and try it out. But I have found from my own experiments that the Path finding problems that I am experiencing in the Grand Campaign cannot be repeated in the Custom battles and it is this issue that is the cause of a lot of the trouble with charges. Why one should be different from the other I do not know.

[PwnageBot2000]

Very useful mate, thanks, it'll come to great use. Now to practice!

[Zoltan]

I concur with you man, and I have to say that when properly executed, a charge in M2 can be even deadlier than in Rome or any version of the game. Just yesterday I saw a unit of 60 dismounted knights get mauled (6 survivors then route after 5 seconds of fight) by a frontal charge of 20 Knights Hospitalier.

The need for properly preparing before a charge adds to realism, but also breaks the rythm of the game and requires to much micromanagement for an enjoyable experience. The "double-click" behaviour of units is indeed moronic in a normal situation, but can be justified when you want to engage units as soon as possible (ie : reinforce a faltering or routing unit, pursue routers, etc...)

On the other hand, I've had quite a few problems with bad single-click behaviour too. If you're too close to the enemy unit, the soldiers will simply walk slowly to engage without any bonus, and if you're too far they'll take ages to get in position. Single-click to attack and toggle the units to run has so far given me about the same result as a double-click.

How do you think the behaviours should be changed? I personally think it's mostly the single click behaviour that should be changed: if single-click on an enemy, make the units RUN to get into charging position, assemble, then charge. I can't thing of many combat situations when I've clicked on an enemy units and wanted my men to attack slowly. If I want my guys to walk in slowly, I simply click in of empty terrain, usually using the right click thing to lay out my army's position.

As for the double click behaviour, I believe it should be pretty much the same as now: engage as fast as possible, and only charge if the unit is already in the correct position to do so. It should however be smoothed a bit to keep formation as actual professional soldiers would (maybe depending on the unit), and avoid the bug where only the front rank engages. Also chasing routers should be optimised.

Don't take me for a whiner, I am very much enjoying the game as it is, and would prefer CA to take their sweet time to come up with an efficient solution, rather than botch up a patch. Also, am I the only one who thinks they deserve a some vacations? It's summertime in Australia now, and they have all these wonderful beaches full of hot girls who just happen to have that special place in their heart for software developers...

[AussieGiant]

Goods point made by all.

Whacker and Wonderland some of those idea would deal with the SP and MP cav charging issue.

Zoltan you have ID'd the bugginess of the charge mechanism right now.

My fix would be to correct the preset motions of those cav units given a single click attack when inside their charge radius up to a point.

Options

1) Outside charge radius. Walk to preset distance. Form up then follow the walk/trot/canter/lances down and bam!!

2) At charge radius. Form up then follow the walk/trot/canter/lances down and bam!!

3) Closer: Form up then, trot/canter/lances down and bam!!

4) Closer: Form up then canter/lances down and bam!!

5) Closer, well at this point or a bit closer then the charge does not work due to lack of space. At this point it would be a simple draw swords and engage with no charge bonus and just using attack values.

With solving the balancing of all Cav units being butrchered by infantry units then I'd say we are getting better.

Sounds easy and I'm sure the CA's guys are just rolling their eyes as it might be hard to do.

What do the 3 of you think?

[Whacker]

Lots of stuff

OK, I'm in agreement with your ideas, with a few points I'd like to offer additionally.

1. I'm assuming with your suggestion you meant a single click attack, by the "walk up to them then go at it." If I double click, then I want them to run up, then charge.

2. I like your idea for the charge points and conditions. I think that having a linear scaling charge bonus that decreases with proximity as the chargers gets closer to the chargees is outstanding and would help nerf the "full charge bonus from 2 ft away" problem.

3. As an aside, I think the cav in M2TW are not nearly as cohesive in running and charging as the RTW cav were, when my opinion is they should have been opposites. Making my cav run to a point in M2TW, then tend to get out of formation rather badly, when in RTW they'd stay in formation quite nicely. The situation should be reversed historically. Knights in medieval times knew how to fight as individuals, but they also understood all too well that in strength there is numbers, and how to charge home in a coordinated manner. It just feels too haphazard in M2TW. Somewhere in between in terms of keeping unit cohesion would be ideal, imo. I think this will also help with some of the other complaints regarding charging cav bugs.

Great discussion guys.

[AussieGiant]

OK, I'm in agreement with your ideas, with a few points I'd like to offer additionally.

1. I'm assuming with your suggestion you meant a single click attack, by the "walk up to them then go at it." If I double click, then I want them to run up, then charge.

2. I like your idea for the charge points and conditions. I think that having a linear scaling charge bonus that decreases with proximity as the chargers gets closer to the chargees is outstanding and would help nerf the "full charge bonus from 2 ft away" problem.

3. As an aside, I think the cav in M2TW are not nearly as cohesive in running and charging as the RTW cav were, when my opinion is they should have been opposites. Making my cav run to a point in M2TW, then tend to get out of formation rather badly, when in RTW they'd stay in formation quite nicely. The situation should be reversed historically. Knights in medieval times knew how to fight as individuals, but they also understood all too well that in strength there is numbers, and how to charge home in a coordinated manner. It just feels too haphazard in M2TW. Somewhere in between in terms of keeping unit cohesion would be ideal, imo. I think this will also help with some of the other complaints regarding charging cav bugs.

Great discussion guys.

1) yes I did mean single left click for those options.

2) Your double click might be a tag powerful though. And yes my options was intended to make sure there is no short ranged missile attacks

3) I agree, but I do believe this has something to do with the general unit cohesion bug with regard to the first rank running off by itself while the rest sit around watching.

Although there is specific mention of knights not being disciplined in the unit descriptions. Maybe these units would tend to get out of formation more than other disciplined cav units. You have to keep this in mind also, especially the Frenchies!!

I also agree. Good discussion!!

[Jagger]

Well I was ready to test the cavalry charge concept out in my Venician campaign tonight. Unfortunately, the AI beat me to it.

Milan had one large, well balanced army with 3 commanders guarding their capital in their last province. I was outnumbered about 1400 to 1000 but was fully confident of victory. The Milan army was well balanced but I had a slight advantage in cavalry.

My left flank was formed of 4 Spear militia and 4 crossbows backed up by one unit of Venetian heavy infantry. All 5 of my heavy cavalry units and one mounted sergeant unit were on my right. The standard arrow exchange began and as it neared the end, I decided to move my heavy cavalry onto their left flank. I was going to use my left flank as an anvil and use the cavalry to roll up their left.

Unfortunately, the AI struck first. Three hvy cavalry units moved through their bowman. I quickly formed all my spearmen into schiltrons. Then the cavalry hit, catching and annihilating one slow crossbow unit, but also hitting my infantry hard. They quickly pulled back and launched another cavalry charge. My backup heavy infantry with the hammers were too slow to catch their cavalry before they pulled back. Then came a heavy line of infantry to hit what was left of my 4 militia spear units.

In the meantime, my cavalry hit their left flank trying to retrieve the situation. Unfortunately, their flank was guarded by a sergeant spear unit which prevented me from assisting my right flank infantry. I couldn't get past them fast enough....

My infantry and crossbows were basically wiped out. My Venetian hvy infantry unit survived with one man left but they fought very well and never broke. Ultimately, my cavalry won the battle but not many were left alive.

I won't forget that battle anytime soon. The AI's classic charge was impressive.

Lesson learned. Have at least some cavalry backing up my infantry line.

[Jagger]

In some of my other battles, I noticed when units run away, like skirmishers, the charge goes in with swords instead of lances. The problem is skirmishers will usually turn around and fight. Swords might be fine against routing units but not so good when a running unit stops and fights.