How to get a good charge

**AussieGiant** · 11-21-2006, 06:34

Goods point made by all.

Whacker and Wonderland some of those idea would deal with the SP and MP cav charging issue.

Zoltan you have ID'd the bugginess of the charge mechanism right now.

My fix would be to correct the preset motions of those cav units given a single click attack when inside their charge radius up to a point.

Options

1) Outside charge radius. Walk to preset distance. Form up then follow the walk/trot/canter/lances down and bam!!

2) At charge radius. Form up then follow the walk/trot/canter/lances down and bam!!

3) Closer: Form up then, trot/canter/lances down and bam!!

4) Closer: Form up then canter/lances down and bam!!

5) Closer, well at this point or a bit closer then the charge does not work due to lack of space. At this point it would be a simple draw swords and engage with no charge bonus and just using attack values.

With solving the balancing of all Cav units being butrchered by infantry units then I'd say we are getting better.

Sounds easy and I'm sure the CA's guys are just rolling their eyes as it might be hard to do.

What do the 3 of you think?

**Whacker** · 11-21-2006, 06:43

Originally Posted by AussieGiant

Lots of stuff

OK, I'm in agreement with your ideas, with a few points I'd like to offer additionally.

1. I'm assuming with your suggestion you meant a single click attack, by the "walk up to them then go at it." If I double click, then I want them to run up, then charge.

2. I like your idea for the charge points and conditions. I think that having a linear scaling charge bonus that decreases with proximity as the chargers gets closer to the chargees is outstanding and would help nerf the "full charge bonus from 2 ft away" problem.

3. As an aside, I think the cav in M2TW are not nearly as cohesive in running and charging as the RTW cav were, when my opinion is they should have been opposites. Making my cav run to a point in M2TW, then tend to get out of formation rather badly, when in RTW they'd stay in formation quite nicely. The situation should be reversed historically. Knights in medieval times knew how to fight as individuals, but they also understood all too well that in strength there is numbers, and how to charge home in a coordinated manner. It just feels too haphazard in M2TW. Somewhere in between in terms of keeping unit cohesion would be ideal, imo. I think this will also help with some of the other complaints regarding charging cav bugs.

Great discussion guys.

**AussieGiant** · 11-21-2006, 07:04

Originally Posted by Whacker

OK, I'm in agreement with your ideas, with a few points I'd like to offer additionally.

1. I'm assuming with your suggestion you meant a single click attack, by the "walk up to them then go at it." If I double click, then I want them to run up, then charge.

2. I like your idea for the charge points and conditions. I think that having a linear scaling charge bonus that decreases with proximity as the chargers gets closer to the chargees is outstanding and would help nerf the "full charge bonus from 2 ft away" problem.

3. As an aside, I think the cav in M2TW are not nearly as cohesive in running and charging as the RTW cav were, when my opinion is they should have been opposites. Making my cav run to a point in M2TW, then tend to get out of formation rather badly, when in RTW they'd stay in formation quite nicely. The situation should be reversed historically. Knights in medieval times knew how to fight as individuals, but they also understood all too well that in strength there is numbers, and how to charge home in a coordinated manner. It just feels too haphazard in M2TW. Somewhere in between in terms of keeping unit cohesion would be ideal, imo. I think this will also help with some of the other complaints regarding charging cav bugs.

Great discussion guys.

1) yes I did mean single left click for those options.

2) Your double click might be a tag powerful though. And yes my options was intended to make sure there is no short ranged missile attacks

3) I agree, but I do believe this has something to do with the general unit cohesion bug with regard to the first rank running off by itself while the rest sit around watching.

Although there is specific mention of knights not being disciplined in the unit descriptions. Maybe these units would tend to get out of formation more than other disciplined cav units. You have to keep this in mind also, especially the Frenchies!!

I also agree. Good discussion!!

**Jagger** · 11-21-2006, 07:20

Well I was ready to test the cavalry charge concept out in my Venician campaign tonight. Unfortunately, the AI beat me to it.

Milan had one large, well balanced army with 3 commanders guarding their capital in their last province. I was outnumbered about 1400 to 1000 but was fully confident of victory. The Milan army was well balanced but I had a slight advantage in cavalry.

My left flank was formed of 4 Spear militia and 4 crossbows backed up by one unit of Venetian heavy infantry. All 5 of my heavy cavalry units and one mounted sergeant unit were on my right. The standard arrow exchange began and as it neared the end, I decided to move my heavy cavalry onto their left flank. I was going to use my left flank as an anvil and use the cavalry to roll up their left.

Unfortunately, the AI struck first. Three hvy cavalry units moved through their bowman. I quickly formed all my spearmen into schiltrons. Then the cavalry hit, catching and annihilating one slow crossbow unit, but also hitting my infantry hard. They quickly pulled back and launched another cavalry charge. My backup heavy infantry with the hammers were too slow to catch their cavalry before they pulled back. Then came a heavy line of infantry to hit what was left of my 4 militia spear units.

In the meantime, my cavalry hit their left flank trying to retrieve the situation. Unfortunately, their flank was guarded by a sergeant spear unit which prevented me from assisting my right flank infantry. I couldn't get past them fast enough....

My infantry and crossbows were basically wiped out. My Venetian hvy infantry unit survived with one man left but they fought very well and never broke. Ultimately, my cavalry won the battle but not many were left alive.

I won't forget that battle anytime soon. The AI's classic charge was impressive.

Lesson learned. Have at least some cavalry backing up my infantry line.

**Jagger** · 11-21-2006, 07:24

In some of my other battles, I noticed when units run away, like skirmishers, the charge goes in with swords instead of lances. The problem is skirmishers will usually turn around and fight. Swords might be fine against routing units but not so good when a running unit stops and fights.

**magnum** · 11-21-2006, 07:50

Aye, the charge instructions given here are for charging a stationary line. Took some cav earlier against various militia units and slaughtered them. Anything but heavy Halberd/Pike dies in spectacular fashion... if it is standing still. So skimishers tend to throw off charges. Best thing to do with them is either range attack with your own skimishers are pull a hammer and anvil situation.

**Rothe** · 11-21-2006, 08:12

I just want to throw in my 2 cents too.

I like the basic idea behind the cav in M2. The idea that you cannot just fire-and-forget the cav and that you have to look for proper range for the charge.

Still, there are problems:

- some more automated actions would be nice. If I am at good range for a charge, the cav should line up and turn to face the enemy on their own if I single click them, and then charge as it does now. Micromanaging the unit to face perfectly is a waste of playing time. The turning and adjusting by the unit it self can take a moment, and as long as it is automatic, I have no problems with it.

- cav staying power... A knight fighting on a barded horse with a sword should fare better against undisciplined infantry. Spears should still be good in defending against cav and bracing for charges, but not just killing the cav so fast as now the stationary knights seem to be made out of paper.

- chasing routed/retreating units can still use swords, as I suppose the idea is that moving troops are not a good target for lance charges. I would not have a problem with lance charges done in straight lines at the escaping foes either.

In general I would prefer slightly more automated behaviour in the charges.

**Hashashiyyin** · 11-21-2006, 08:19

I edited and recompiled a updated version of the charging guild to answer some of the raised questions and put it all in one post. find it here :)

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=72768

**AussieGiant** · 11-21-2006, 08:20

Cav staying power is an issue. That should be solved with a patch. Of course this is only true for some units. Leaving cavalry engaged with swordman, or heavy infantry will usually result in a loss as there are far more of them than cavalry.

With some of the points you raise Rothe, then I think it will work well.

And Jagger.

Can I make a suggestion. Form your cav on YOUR left flank and attach the enemies right flank. Shields are on the left arm of units so missile and cav units should be more effective out there.

You did it the other way around in your example.