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Thread: How to get a good charge

  1. #1

    Default How to get a good charge

    It's actually pretty easy to do once you know how and have had some practice with it. I'd also like to say this at the beginning, charging is very touchy if not buggy and still needs some hammering out by CA. Now I'll explain some game mechanics on how charging works (both with infantry and cavlery).


    First off, practice! Set a lot of custom battles and just charge cavlery into infantry to start getting the feel on how to charge and when your units will charge.


    There is a difference between single clicks and double clicks in M2:TW. A big one. In all other total war games (to my knowledge and experience), the difference between single and double click only differed with the units movement speed. Single click was a slow march, used to get into position with out tiring your troop. Double click was "Charge those infidels!" command telling your units to charge into combat.

    In M2:TW this has changed a little. Single click is for "engage that enemy" and double click has become get "here" as fast as possible. In light of this, some of the way Calvary behaves is a little less buggy, a lot more realistic and a lot more user error (again, it's touchy at best and still needs some work by CA). I'll explain this a little more and talk of some of my battle experiences.


    I'll talk about the realism side of how charging works. This is to give you some understanding of how to use this in campaign battles and not just canned custom battles. If you want to make a good battle simulation you have to bridge to gap between real people and the 3D models being hammered out by your video card. The most realistic way to do this is to factor in morale, fatigue, and an overall sense of self preservation at a troop level. This way the troops will act more like a real person and not some automaton that blindly throws himself at death just because he was ordered to do so.

    Now imagine yourself at your local football field. At each end zone there is a 100 man formation of spear troops. At 100 meters apart they are well within missile range of each other and in most TW games you'd "double-click" at this point. But pretend you’re in one of the formations and are ordered to engage the other enemy. You could run 100 meters as fast as you can with 50+lbs of armor and weapons. When you got there though, your formation would be totally messed up and you would have no energy left for slamming into and then killing the spearmen that did nothing but brace for your charge. That’s a BAD tactic and unrealistic (unrealistic because doing this would cause a lot of casualties and you wouldn't do it based on self preservation), so how would you realistically charge? You would march, slowing and information until you were probably about 15-20 meters away, stop for a moment to close your formation and THEN charge. So how does this translate into game mechanics?


    Well in M2:TW, Single-clicking tells your unit to "engage" another unit. That is, they will walk/trot in formation to a point 15-25 meters away, close ranks, rally and then charge.

    Double-clicking tells your units to get "here" as fast as possible. Thus, your units don't "charge" because they are trying to get to that point/enemy as fast as possible and don't have the time to set up for a proper charge. This has become a command for flanking maneuvers only!


    Case in point (try it in custom battle): JHI vs. DGK - if you double click on the knights, the JHI start to charge. Their halberds flailing wildly about and they slam into the infantry unit and begin fighting. But if you single click them they walk calmly and in formation to a moderate distance. They then stop, rally, and then LOWER their halberds to form a spear wall of sorts and then charge! So single clicking made them engage with and actual charge, using their halberds to lead the way instead of their bodies.

    Another case in point: GK vs. Armored sergeants. Ok so now it's Calvary vs. spears. Double clicking makes the gothic knights charge the spearmen. Most of the time they take up their lances at the last minute and charge in with their swords. I believe that Calvary can still charge with the double click (as I've seen it happen) but only and if only they are still in tight formation, which is next to impossible if they have been double click moving for more then 10 meters. Now single click will again, make them trot to about 25 meters away, drop lances and charge! The results are truly amazing! Even against spearmen I've killed the whole unit in one charge in my tests! The only units that can take this charge are the unit's with long spears/pole arms that can specifically brace for the impact with the tips of their weapons.

    So to get good with charging: practice with custom battles, and SINGLE-CLICK your unit if you want them to charge! Double-clicking should only be used for flanking maneuvers where the moral damage is more important then shear impact (i.e. your infantry is already engaged and you want your light Calvary to hit their flanks).



    Tips and tricks: once you understand the mechanics, getting good charges isn't hard, they just take more time to setup then in other TW games.

    Tip 1: Charge radius. Basically, every unit has a distance between it and the unit it's engaging before it will charge (longer for Calvary, shorter for infantry). Thus if you want to run (double-click) your unit to get them in place fast and still charge, double-click move them into just inside/outside their charge radius (this is where the practice comes in :D). Once just inside/outside that radius, single-click and your units will charge.

    Tip 2: Using Calvary as an opening punch. I've read more then a few posts about not being able to get Calvary out after the charge. You have to time it well and as soon and the first part of the charge stops, double click on a point behind them and they should be more then able to get out clean, with little or no casualties. But you have to order the retreat almost as soon as the front line of the charge reaches its target, that way they will pull out immediately after their charge and not get hung up fighting.

    Tip 3: how to get Calvary to charge again. Basically you have to retreat the Calvary as in #2 above and set them up facing the enemy again, and start the single-click process all over again. Sometime they don't even have to be facing the enemy unit, if you just withdraw them to the edge of the charge radius and single-click, they'll turn and you can get a good charge.

    The reason your Calvary has to be well formed before it will charge has again to do with trying to be more realistic (on CA's part) in terms of self preservation. An ill-formed band of knights charging headlong into a mass of spearmen equals death for the knights. On the other hand, a tight group charging in unison equals death for the spearmen. I think a lot of the "buggy" AI comes from the fact that people are giving their troops orders that the AI feels is suicidal when it looks at the quality and facing of its formations. Try actually maneuvering them into formation before giving them orders to attack, the AI seems to agree with this a lot more.

    In conclusion, I'm surprised you’re still reading Hope this helps. I think the biggest problem with M2:TW is the fact that CA changed a lot on how battle mechanics and campaign map interactions work and they didn't bother to tell what or why. So were pretty much left to feel that what expect to be there that isn't is a bug. Without ever knowing what (if any) intelligent design was behind the change.

  2. #2

    Default Re: How to get a good charge

    Very helpful, thanks.

  3. #3
    Member Member Dr_Who_Regen#4's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to get a good charge

    Great Post...I think we all just were not used to the new method...I have been trying the same approach of one click to engage and it seems to work well...Just means you can't double click from far away and still get a charge. Regardless of realism just something to get used to doing.
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    Member Member Napoleon Blownapart's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to get a good charge

    So that's what I was doing wrong! Very useful post. I'm going to practice now.
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  5. #5
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to get a good charge

    Good post. I'm trying to think of situations where it's more benneficial to charge with the sword than lance.


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  6. #6

    Default Re: How to get a good charge

    Thank you very much for the analysis, it was very helpful.

  7. #7

    Default Re: How to get a good charge

    So, question then. Sometimes, it's advantageous to have a unit of cavalry rush to a target but you'd still like it to charge properly say if you want to destroy an out of position unit on the battle field. (An easy example: the enemy has a single unit of town militia marching in as re-enforcements, you want to take them out before they join the entire army.)

    Is the only way to do this to double-click to near the target so they run there, then as you get close, to single click, and wait for the charge to happen? And if this is the case, how close can the enemy be for a charge to work?

    Again this thread is super helpful. I lost a general the other night "charging" into a unit of peasants of all things. Except, I think I had done the double click thing, meaning, they didn't really charge. Lesson learned.

  8. #8

    Default Re: How to get a good charge

    Good info, still having some issues with it but it might be the radius issue.

    Single clicking sometimes will have my troops form up and then charge but sometimes they dont wait for all or some charge at different speeds and dont hit as a unit.

    This clould be unit experience tho and will continue to test.

    The one thing I would have liked to see was the shift click allowed for charges so we cld shift click an enemy and then double shift click behind them to cause a charge and withdrawal. I love charges but still not a fan of always having to babysit them.
    Last edited by Lochar; 11-20-2006 at 23:10.

  9. #9
    A Livonian Rebel Member Slaists's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to get a good charge

    A very good post. Corresponds to my experiences as well. Last night annihilated an enemy general unit in seconds using similar single click charge.

    The only problem with the single-click charge: it does not seem to work with skirmishing enemy missile units. I guess, against those, you still want to use double-click attack which won't be a "proper charge" though.

  10. #10

    Default Re: How to get a good charge

    A couple things to help clear up some questions.

    First: charging is still buggy and needs work by CA. Some things like only your first line in formation charging are (I hope) bugs. So you will not always get a clean/useful charge even if you do the right things. But still if you take time to setup and single click you'll get 80%-95% success rate vs. a 5-10% success rate by just wildly and chaotically charging your Calvary around the field.

    Second: if your unit's are already inside the charge radius and you single click, they will begin the charge immediately. so if you run (double click) them inside the charge radius, and they are still out of formation when you single click, the charge will still probably be crap even if they lower their lances. Try giving a facing command with your moves so when the reach that point they should line up quick and be ready for a good charge.

    Third: The only time a unit will stop before the charge is if they have been given the single-click "engage" order outside of the charge radius. Once they reach the charge radius they form up quick and then charge. Again, if they are already inside the charge radius when you single click they will try to immediately charge w/o forming up. so if you're moving a unit from one place to another and want them to be able to get a good charge I'd recommend giving them a facing order with their movement and trying to get them to line up just outside the charge radius.

  11. #11

    Default Re: How to get a good charge

    Ok, this is logical and I agree. The problem is double clicking them to just outside their charge radius, then single clicking for the charge. There is too much going on, and a general should be able to say to his cav, "run to your charge radius and then charge", with one simple command. I have other units to command and any general would expect his "well trained" heavy cav units to know how to set up a proper charge on their own!

  12. #12

    Default Re: How to get a good charge

    Double right clicking (irrespective of charge) is buggy; it has been this way for me since Alexander, though it worked fine in RTW and BI. Basically, double right clicking just results in walking, not running. I have to manually press R to get them to move fast. Very annoying.

  13. #13
    Banned Kadagar_AV's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to get a good charge

    It seems more like a bug than realism to me.

    your talk about realism holds true in the scenario of knights vs spearmen.

    Now consider another scenario, and one that happens much (MUCH) more often, at least when I play:

    spearmen unit goodguys is tying up spearmen unit badguys. The goodguys knights are to storm in from the flank and break enemy formation.

    In such a situation, a orderly charge wouldnt have to be set up. 2 knights could do it alone more or less (without it being suicide).

    But alas, no. They stroll around and stare.

    it's bugged, and has nothing to do with realism.

  14. #14
    Amphibious Trebuchet Salesman Member Whacker's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to get a good charge

    Quote Originally Posted by Xy1on
    Ok, this is logical and I agree. The problem is double clicking them to just outside their charge radius, then single clicking for the charge. There is too much going on, and a general should be able to say to his cav, "run to your charge radius and then charge", with one simple command. I have other units to command and any general would expect his "well trained" heavy cav units to know how to set up a proper charge on their own!
    First off, thanks Hash for the great write-up, I tried it for a bit and it helped.

    However, I'm inclined to agree with Xy1on's statement. Doubleclicking to run, having to keep track of the unit and have it's charge distance memorized, THEN single clicking to charge (which imo is counter-intuitive) is far too much micromanagement, even for single player where pause is an option. If this functionality is what CA intended, then I would offer that we should stick this in the patch wishlist thread as this is just not a good idea.

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  15. #15

    Default Re: How to get a good charge

    Nice post but, aye, its bugged; well and truly so.

    I think you're trying to read far too much into the conceptualism of "realistic charging".

    It just 'doesn't work very well because its buggy code' is the simpler and more likely explanation.

    And, ateotd, even if it was WAI then it would still need changing as its so user-unfriendly in its current state.

    No, whichever way you look at it it's screwy.

    Sorry.

    CA: fix it.
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  16. #16

    Default Re: How to get a good charge

    Good thread... good posts...
    'Hannibal had been the victor at Cannae, and as if the Romans had good cause to boast that you have only strength enough for one blow, and that like a bee that has left its sting you are now inert and powerless.'

  17. #17

    Default Re: How to get a good charge

    Quote Originally Posted by gardibolt
    Double right clicking (irrespective of charge) is buggy; it has been this way for me since Alexander, though it worked fine in RTW and BI. Basically, double right clicking just results in walking, not running. I have to manually press R to get them to move fast. Very annoying.
    This is because you are giving a double click command with the game paused. I admit this is probably a "bug", but once you unpause, they will only walk. If you issue a double click command while unpaused, they will run.

  18. #18

    Default Re: How to get a good charge

    Very helpful thread, thank you all.

    vertical

  19. #19

    Default Re: How to get a good charge

    I agree that it's a little bugged, but when I get a 95+% success rate charging if I take the time to set up the charge make me believe it's a hell of a lot more user error then a bugged mechanic.

    The best charges are going to be ones where you give the facing order outside the unit's charge radius, far enough to allow them to fully form up and face the enemy and then single-click on the unit you want to charge. That is the maximum potential charge, and it's not broken, it's not a bug, it's realistic. What most people are griping about is not having the ability to give their unit a "you know what to do, now do it", fire and forget, single button command for Calvary devastation. That's fine if you're looking for arcade style play and it would probably be a wise idea for CA to patch that in as an option to silence the arcade style total war fans. But the heart of the Total war series has NOT been about arcade style play (hello, a 250 turn, 50+ province campaign is NOT arcade). This way of micro managing your Calvary is more realistic (not only in a self preservation sense, but as in how knights on horse back would actually maneuver and charge) and much more strategic on the battle field. It will be a fun change for multi-player, making it more a game of strategy, then a game of button clicking.

    I'd have to say the old days of one button Calvary devastation are over and this way is here to stay (I hope).

  20. #20
    Resident Pessimist Member Dooz's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to get a good charge

    First off, great post Hashashiyyin, very good info and writeup.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xy1on
    Ok, this is logical and I agree. The problem is double clicking them to just outside their charge radius, then single clicking for the charge. There is too much going on, and a general should be able to say to his cav, "run to your charge radius and then charge", with one simple command. I have other units to command and any general would expect his "well trained" heavy cav units to know how to set up a proper charge on their own!
    Ok, in regards to having to micromanage double-clicking to get the unit in the charge radius then having to click again, there is a simple solution. You can set "waypoints" for units, as you did if you played the tutorial (which understandably most TW vets won't, but I like them cause they're fun ). So applying that to this strategy, what you need to do is double-click the unit into the charging radius, then press and hold shift and single-click on the unit you wish them to charge. They'll get to the initial waypoint and line up, then will commence the charge automatically as the second step without you having to come in again and click at that point.

    Basically the way waypoints work is you can give a unit a series of destinations which they'll follow in order you place them by pressing and holding shift and clicking where you want them to go. So you can set up the cav on a flank by double-clicking, then press and hold shift and single click on a unit that's engaged with your inf and it'll do exactly what you need. I know I just repeated myself but yeah, just want to make it clear.
    Last edited by Dooz; 11-21-2006 at 01:21.

  21. #21
    Humanist Senior Member A.Saturnus's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to get a good charge

    Very interesting post, but still, there are cases when I couldn't get a charge at all. Single or double clicking just results sometimes in a slow walk right into the enemy formation.

  22. #22
    The Dominican Member Wizzie's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to get a good charge

    Fantastic post. After getting involved in a unit-spacing debate in another thread I decided to go and do a bit of testing on custom battle myself and came to the same conlcusion. In summary: In my opinion charges are still bugged. Even when executing what should be a "perfect" charge, sometimes it can turn out a shambles with the unit walking or breaking up, etc. However, if you do set up charges just as explained in the first post your succesfull charges will go from maybe 30%-40% succeed ratio to well over 70% succeed ratio. This is still unnacceptable obviously, and needs to be worked on, but I do believe that CA will make the whole process easier and more user-friendly but still retain the new mechanics it seem to be using, so it might be best to get used to it now :P <br>I must say though that the new mechanics are slightly more realistic. Cavalry charges from the early medieval period right up to the early 1800s were always started off at a sedate walk and then gradually accelerated, only reaching full gallop within meters of the enemy. Knights had to charge "knee to knee" as it was known, to get a fully effective charge. The idea was for a solid wall of horse, man and steel to completely obliterate the enemy line, so if the line had alot of gaps it would not succeed as well.<br>However, charging is still (if not bugged) very raw code that needs to be refined quite abit for it to be fully fluid and user-friendly.<br>
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  23. #23

    Default Re: How to get a good charge

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkmoor_Dragon
    Nice post but, aye, its bugged; well and truly so.

    I think you're trying to read far too much into the conceptualism of "realistic charging".

    It just 'doesn't work very well because its buggy code' is the simpler and more likely explanation.

    And, ateotd, even if it was WAI then it would still need changing as its so user-unfriendly in its current state.

    No, whichever way you look at it it's screwy.

    Sorry.

    CA: fix it.

    I seriously doubt it’s a bug… it’s part of the game mechanics in that you need sufficient distance and unit order to make your charges affective. The progression of patches in RTW has made charges harder to master and more real to life. There’s a huge difference in how charges work between 1.3 and 1.5 patches. They may have perfected this in MTW. And I like it.

    In this game, as I can imagine in real life, the FIRST charge with fresh units is most damaging. So make it count!
    Light cavalry charges are most affective on the flanks. Frontal heavy cavalry charges are best used to break up the main line; it is even more affective if closely followed by infantry charge.
    Last edited by BeeSting; 11-21-2006 at 01:30.
    'Hannibal had been the victor at Cannae, and as if the Romans had good cause to boast that you have only strength enough for one blow, and that like a bee that has left its sting you are now inert and powerless.'

  24. #24

    Default Re: How to get a good charge

    I would argue that the game is attempting to simulate medieval battles. Its the reason for variables like moral, fatigue, experience and defence to name a few. There is no question about CA is trying to accomplish here. I would agree with Whacker about the infantry and the football field and the self preservation. Would you charge an enemy unit while the rest of your unit stood there and watched? Would you like to be the guy at the tip of a wedge? Can you sprint 100 yards without loosing your breath? I doubt it. Infantry and Cavalry are much different, however. I would expect my cav to sprint 100, 200, 300 or more straight yards, keep formation, and deliver a charge without stopping. If the cavalry must turn while running, they are going to loose formation though. The horses on the outside of the turn would have to run faster durring the turn, to keep a stright formation. Looks good on paper but I doubt you could coordinate this in the heat of battle, and here is where the self preservation comes in again. The cav turns, the cav looses formation, the cav wants to get back into formation before charging.

  25. #25

    Default Re: How to get a good charge

    Quote Originally Posted by Xy1on
    I would argue that the game is attempting to simulate medieval battles. Its the reason for variables like moral, fatigue, experience and defence to name a few. There is no question about CA is trying to accomplish here. I would agree with Whacker about the infantry and the football field and the self preservation. Would you charge an enemy unit while the rest of your unit stood there and watched? Would you like to be the guy at the tip of a wedge? Can you sprint 100 yards without loosing your breath? I doubt it. Infantry and Cavalry are much different, however. I would expect my cav to sprint 100, 200, 300 or more straight yards, keep formation, and deliver a charge without stopping. If the cavalry must turn while running, they are going to loose formation though. The horses on the outside of the turn would have to run faster durring the turn, to keep a stright formation. Looks good on paper but I doubt you could coordinate this in the heat of battle, and here is where the self preservation comes in again. The cav turns, the cav looses formation, the cav wants to get back into formation before charging.
    Well said...
    'Hannibal had been the victor at Cannae, and as if the Romans had good cause to boast that you have only strength enough for one blow, and that like a bee that has left its sting you are now inert and powerless.'

  26. #26

    Default Re: How to get a good charge

    Just played a custom battle to try this out and it worked well. I've found that setting the cav to wedge formation and having them charge and keep going through the unit and then turn around and charge again works better (less friendly casualties, and if you falled it with an infantry charge and had the cav sandwich the just charged unit, I'd imagine it'd work great) than falling back right away after a charge. Disclaimer: I've only tested it once though against average spearmen, and of course every campaign battle is different and this might not be a viable tactic every time.

  27. #27

    Default Re: How to get a good charge

    Quote Originally Posted by Xy1on
    I would argue that the game is attempting to simulate medieval battles. Its the reason for variables like moral, fatigue, experience and defence to name a few. There is no question about CA is trying to accomplish here. I would agree with Whacker about the infantry and the football field and the self preservation. Would you charge an enemy unit while the rest of your unit stood there and watched? Would you like to be the guy at the tip of a wedge? Can you sprint 100 yards without loosing your breath? I doubt it. Infantry and Cavalry are much different, however. I would expect my cav to sprint 100, 200, 300 or more straight yards, keep formation, and deliver a charge without stopping. If the cavalry must turn while running, they are going to loose formation though. The horses on the outside of the turn would have to run faster durring the turn, to keep a stright formation. Looks good on paper but I doubt you could coordinate this in the heat of battle, and here is where the self preservation comes in again. The cav turns, the cav looses formation, the cav wants to get back into formation before charging.

    If you honestly believe that you could get on a horse, with 30kg of armor and weapons, charge at top speed with 60+ other armored horses and stay in perfect charging formation for anything over 50 yards I'd have to say you've never ridden on a horse. At least never been on a fully charging horse. If you have been on the back of a fully galloping horse, think about doing it while wearing 60 lbs of armor, holding a shield in one hand, and a lance in the other, controlling the horse with you knees, and trying to keep in a perfect line with the 20 other armored knights to your right for 400 yards? are you joking?

  28. #28

    Default Re: How to get a good charge

    We are not talking about me, we are talking about highly trained heavy cavalry. I dont disagree with you tho. Things like terrain and stuff will mess up a straight charge. And yes I have ridden a few horses, and its quite a bumpy ride at full gallop. I want my medieval battle sim to be as real as possible. A cav charge should be well placed and timed perfectly, and the general in command has allot to do with that. The general should be able to say CHARGE!, not guide them thru each step.

  29. #29

    Default Re: How to get a good charge

    Quote Originally Posted by Xy1on
    I would expect my cav to sprint 100, 200, 300 or more straight yards, keep formation, and deliver a charge without stopping.
    Probably not in heavy armor for both man and horse though.

  30. #30

    Default Re: How to get a good charge

    I will not argue with any of your conclusions except to say that the behavior of units in custom battles is completely different from the behavior of units in the campaign. I will take note of what you said and try it out. But I have found from my own experiments that the Path finding problems that I am experiencing in the Grand Campaign cannot be repeated in the Custom battles and it is this issue that is the cause of a lot of the trouble with charges. Why one should be different from the other I do not know.

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