Levy Spearmen/Spear Militia: Completely Useless?

[Afro Thunder]

Am I missing something here, or does it seem like levy spearmen and spear militia are the most useless units in the game?

- In a one-on-one fight against peasants, the peasants win. (How does that work exactly?)

- Even the most basic cavalry unit just runs them down like blades of grass. (A direct frontal charge, mind you!)

- They even lose to peasant archers in melee.

Maybe I'm meant to use them in the streets of siege battles, where cavalry essentially lose the ability to charge, or do they provide some sort of hidden garrison bonus, like they increase the garrison effect in your cities?

[andrewt]

I had problems using the Italian Spear Militia in cities as well. I asked them to attack sergeant spearmen in the city square. They went in a ridiculously thin line, with people following in the back doing nothing. I was in tight formation, too. Only a few spearmen of mine were engaging. I was trying hard to get them to close ranks but they stayed that way, spread apart. They took forever to kill the spearmen that the peasant archers at the back inflicted a ton of damage to the militia in the back.

Spear units usually spread out too much that they lose the ability for multiple ranks to hit the enemy, which is what made them so effective.

[PaulTa]

First off, I'm pretty sure that the spear units didn't have long enough spears to engage with multiple ranks. Those were pikes.

Secondly, there is a solution to the front line thingy. Just charge a unit behind the one you're trying to kill, and the spears will bunch up really tight and then start fighting the unit that's in front of them. Works wonders.

[andrewt]

Actually, they do. It doesn't take much for at least a 2nd or even 3rd row of spears to engage. For pikes, pretty sure they can engage up to the 4th or 5th row.

[Kralizec]

Can you post a screenshot of spearmen using multiple ranks? It sounds interesting and I don't have the game yet.

[naut]

Actually, they do. It doesn't take much for at least a 2nd or even 3rd row of spears to engage. For pikes, pretty sure they can engage up to the 4th or 5th row.

Historically in Medieval times, two rows no more, and in most historical situations there were no defined ranks either.

[Spendius]

I like them. They are good for fixing the enemy, providing nice targets for cavalry. And they do quite well against... militia spearmen :)

[BigTex]

First off, I'm pretty sure that the spear units didn't have long enough spears to engage with multiple ranks. Those were pikes.

The unofficial standard of the time had spears around 5-5 1/2 feet in length. So yes the man behind could usually engage. But ordered formations during the early and high periods were used very rarely. Though in a game sense it would be difficult to really see that effect with the units as the are.

The weak militia's arent useless. If used in huge masses they can be incredibly effective. Once they close the mass of the militia tends to quickly push, suround, and destroy most other units while encuring few losses. I've had quite a few battles with massed militia's and it can cause an enemy to rout very quickly.

[R'as al Ghul]

Spear Militia is the only unit that keeps me alive as Venice.
Granted, I mostly use Italian Spear Militia which are a bit stronger than vanilla militia, iirc.
Against Cav I put them on guard mode to receive the charge, than I switch guard off and attack. You can also run through a unit but it will result in high casualties. The good thing is that the pushback often routs the enemy when you have supporting units nearby.
I defended Venice multiple times with nothing else but ISM and Militia Crossbowmen. They are also upkeep free and produced quickly.
I've to admit that I'm only at turn 55.

R'as

[chunkynut]

There is another thread about the spears being less than effective against ... anything.

I've found that 4 ranks deep don't cut it like they used to in MTW/RTW and now set them up with 6 ranks deep at least.

Sometimes the units front row in a charge will run and leave the rest of the unit behind in a sort of defensive fighting stance, this is not specifically a spear unit issue.

Try using the schiltom (sp?) formation, I've ripped apart king's generals bodyguards with 2 spear militia in front of a gate before.

I'd also suggest that the first instant you can get any better troops you leave the spearmen on the flanks, better than cavalry plugging the gaps. I tend to have dismounted knights as my center and a levy spear at either end with billmen or dismounted english knights slighty behind ready to manouver to their flanks. I'm in an English campaign (obviously from the units I'm describing) and there are few decent spear units in the arsenal, for Italian factions/HRE etc it may be different.

[DisruptorX]

In all of my games so far, they decimate cavalry, including mine, if its the AI's spears in question. Even if the cav wins, they are hurt very, very badly. As militia, I generally assume that they are for city defense, and use them to guard my gates. They do a splendid job of this, stopping assualts dead in their tracks with sheer numbers.

As for losing to peasants, I've had that happen, no clue how that works. Peasants in general seem just slightly stronger in this game, but still..

[Kobal2fr]

@R'as Al Ghul : Italian Spear Militia is not just "a tad better" than normal militia", they are on par with professional Sargeants

On the whole though, spearmen seem to have little killing power (except against immobile cav, but then again so do mere peasants), if any. Staying power they do have though, they'll die quite slowly, but they won't do many casualties by themselves unless they greatly outnumber their foe. I just finished a battle against mostly French Urban Militia and Spear Militias as the English, and I expected my billmen to obliterate them, but they put on quite a fight before finally chain-routing.

Admitedly my billmen were a bit battered, having been shot up by archers on the way, so there were about 4x40 of them remaining vs. 2x40 + 2x70 spearmen, but still, I thought a good charge would end the battle instantly.

Truth be told, I don't know wether the militia collapsed out of their losses, or because the remaibs of 2 units of mail knights appeared out of the fog right behind them (no charge, just walking in charge range)

I now regard spearmen quite differently - I don't expect them to kill anything on their own anymore, not even peasants, just hold them in place for someone else to finish, either cav, billmen or plain old archers firing right through.

[chunkynut]

I now regard spearmen quite differently - I don't expect them to kill anything on their own anymore, not even peasants, just hold them in place for someone else to finish, either cav, billmen or plain old archers firing right through.

I think this is the only way to use them, you can't expect spears alone to hold out forever and cause casualties against anything but other spears on their own. Unless of course you totally outnumber the other force and they don't have anything better than spears.

They are the anvil waiting for the hammer.

[econ21]

One thing to bear in mind with standard (e.g. English) militia is the low morale - the two battles I've fought where I relied on them to be the bulk of my army, they broke very easily. Seems entirely historical but something to bear in mind.

I suspect militia have a low morale stat, plus the fact they don't kill much probably undermines morale further. (In high morale mods of RTW such as RTR, cav often breaks the enemy on the charge because it inflicts such high initial casualties.)

[R'as al Ghul]

@R'as Al Ghul : Italian Spear Militia is not just "a tad better" than normal militia, they are on par with professional Sergeants

Ah, very good.
Well I only have the game for a few days, I haven't seen too much....
Do we have a spreadsheet yet, with all the unit values for fast and easy comparison?

R'as

[The historian]

Not completely my current venetian empires relies heavily on them for city defence most of the attacks are made by my professional units from castles at the moment true but for defence italian spear militia are good i've crushed dismounted and feudal knights with ease using them true i ussualy had 1.5 more and archers. and in the early days they were very good now since it's turn 77 they are kind of crappy but they still do the job against reich polish hungarian byzantine and french units even though i am excomunicated BTW how do i get rid of the papacy forever is it possibel already killed everyone in rome and all papal units maybe some ships left but still the papacy exists i should be able to appoint a pope no?

[chunkynut]

BTW how do i get rid of the papacy forever is it possibel already killed everyone in rome and all papal units maybe some ships left but still the papacy exists i should be able to appoint a pope no?

I think (not happened yet in my campaign) that the Pope moves to a friendly catholic faction. Historically accurate as the Pope once resided in Avignion (can't remember why thought lol).

[The historian]

But i killed the pope in a mass of my knights sword in hand on the streets of rome and it says there is no pope and yet the papal states still exists no teritory no members no nothing so? do i have to kill every last kardinal or something

[Kobal2fr]

I think this is the only way to use them, you can't expect spears alone to hold out forever and cause casualties against anything but other spears on their own. Unless of course you totally outnumber the other force and they don't have anything better than spears.

They are the anvil waiting for the hammer.

Agreed, and it has of course always been the role of spear units, but in former TW games, spears could do reasonably well against weaker units like peasants, archers, town militia and the like (and, in the case of phalanxes, actually defeat anything short of an elephant). Now they really can't do a thing on their own except (hopefully ) stay alive, which is significant enough a change to be worth mentioning :)

[Jagger]

Agreed, and it has of course always been the role of spear units, but in former TW games, spears could do reasonably well against weaker units like peasants, archers, town militia and the like (and, in the case of phalanxes, actually defeat anything short of an elephant). Now they really can't do a thing on their own except (hopefully ) stay alive, which is significant enough a change to be worth mentioning :)

I agree as well. The spears have an important role in forming the stable, defensive anti-cavalry wall around which everything else happens. The wall can be destroyed but takes time. Time in which your cavalry and bowman play their roles. Your cavalry can recover behind the protective wall or swing around to strike the enemies flanks. The same with the bowman.

Spears have an important tactical role, primarily defensive rather than offensive, beyond killing the enemy.

[Spendius]

Historically accurate as the Pope once resided in Avignion (can't remember why thought lol).

Pope Boniface VIII declared that no man, peasant or king, was above the church and had only responsibility towards God, in response for Philip IV's tax on the catholic church. Philip then sent a small army in Rome, and with Sciarra Colonna, an opponent of Boniface. Colonna striked the pope who became crazy and died 1 month later.
Then a French cardinal was elected as Clement V, and the papacy was moved to Avignon.

[chunkynut]

Pope Boniface VIII declared that no man, peasant or king, was above the church and had only responsibility towards God, in response for Philip IV's tax on the catholic church. Philip then sent a small army in Rome, and with Sciarra Colonna, an opponent of Boniface. Colonna striked the pope who became crazy and died 1 month later.
Then a French cardinal was elected as Clement V, and the papacy was moved to Avignon.

Thanks! The breathe of knowledge on these boards tends to shame me though lol.

[The historian]

Knew that was wondering wheter it was possibel in mtw ii after all i own everythign for at least 1000 km around the papacy i am the Roman empire of the day the pope should be begging at my palace door or if he isn't i should be able to replace him after all i am fighting 50% of the catholic faction most of them are now in their last stronghold so hell i should be able to change the pope with a twitch of my finger

[oj121]

Its Welsh spears for me all the way. Im Scotland and i always have my Welshmen form my front rank and they are soooo effective. I dont expect them to kill everything. I just want them to stand, hold and tie up the enemy so my highlanders can do their bit and tear the flanks to pieces!

[Freedom Onanist]

Playing as the english they are the only spear armed units you get. I have found that they are quite effective in defence at least. On several occassions a couple of spear units have siccesfully held open gates against anything the Frnch could throw at them.

As long as you upgrade their armour and use them semi defensively you are OK. They certainly rip straight through peasants.

[Grifman]

Not completely my current venetian empires relies heavily on them for city defence most of the attacks are made by my professional units from castles at the moment true but for defence italian spear militia are good i've crushed dismounted and feudal knights with ease using them true i ussualy had 1.5 more and archers. and in the early days they were very good now since it's turn 77 they are kind of crappy but they still do the job against reich polish hungarian byzantine and french units even though i am excomunicated BTW how do i get rid of the papacy forever is it possibel already killed everyone in rome and all papal units maybe some ships left but still the papacy exists i should be able to appoint a pope no?

Uhg, punction has a purpose and is your friend, son

[katank]

On the contrary, spear militia are great. They are great pinning units and protect my missile heavy english army. Mailed knights/billmen flanking will utterly obliterate the enemy's infantry line. Morale is also not a problem if you have a decent general and the spears get a bit of exp.

They are also very useful in sieges. A horde of 7-8 spear militia units charging in unison down the street is virtually impossible for the AI to beat. Enjoy the power of the zerg rush.

[Bob the Insane]

I am surprized about the peasant thing, but one of the nice things about the early levy and militia troops is that they can really profit from armourers. Peasants are limited to the bronze improvements but the spear levies can hae gold at whicf point they become more useful.

The Militia is more useful because of the free garrison thing in cities and I have to admit once better troops are available I simple do not build spear levies anymore...

Though having said that they have been useful on defending in sieges, put in their circular formation and couple of them on the inside of a gate can really take the punch out the the enemies charge if the gate falls...

[The historian]

Sorry Grifman i asume you meant punctuation or if you didn't, don't know what punction means can't find it in the dictionary. Soory if my grammar is not that good. I think my english is at the least acceptable but it's not my native tongue so i make some mistakes.
As for spearmen miltia i find'em quite useful in my current denmark campaign they are preety good at holding the line against Reich armoured sergents while i flank em with cav.However they were seriously choped up by the viking raiders rebels in Sweden and Norway even lost 2 battles because i used only spear militia.

[Kralizec]

On the contrary, spear militia are great. They are great pinning units and protect my missile heavy english army. Mailed knights/billmen flanking will utterly obliterate the enemy's infantry line. Morale is also not a problem if you have a decent general and the spears get a bit of exp.

They are also very useful in sieges. A horde of 7-8 spear militia units charging in unison down the street is virtually impossible for the AI to beat. Enjoy the power of the zerg rush.

You mean like stacking them on top of eachother? That always felt like a cheat in RTW and I hoped MTW2 would make that impossible.

Not that big of an issue, since the AI very rarely does it (purely by accident apparently) and players can chose to take advantage of it or not...