Relations worsened

[KeyserSoze]

Every turn I get this notification. I'm Sicily and my relations with every Catholic country is either very poor or abysmal. At the beginning of the game I allied with every faction, and haven't made war on one, with the exception of Milan making war on me.
I'm now on my 60th turn (0.50 years per turn) and I have been getting (for about 20 turns or so) worsening relationships with every Catholic country with the exception of the Papacy. I just got a message from England that relations had worsened. We haven't had contact for 30+ turns so I don't know how this happened. None of their spies were infiltrating my settlements, or at least none were caught. No assassination attempts.

What have I done wrong?

[IPoseTheQuestionYouReturnTheAnswer]

You mean something like this?

I can't explain it either.

[El Diablo]

Are you guys playing VH for the campaign???

I think that if you choose VH afor campaign all of your people contract halitosis, torrets and have a bad habit of picking their noses at the wrong time.

Noone likes you... *sigh*

Some times an aggressive church building enterprise will make the pope think your okay (but he will still send some inquisitors to check you out).

[Whacker]

Are you guys playing VH for the campaign???

I think that if you choose VH afor campaign all of your people contract halitosis, torrets and have a bad habit of picking their noses at the wrong time.

Noone likes you... *sigh*

Some times an aggressive church building enterprise will make the pope think your okay (but he will still send some inquisitors to check you out).

Don't forget the whole farting in crowded elevators bit either.

I suspect Mr. IposethequestionandIhaveaverylongnickthatsapaintotypeoutanditstrechesoutthescreenandmakesithardtorea dposts's issue is that he's... well, Muslim. The fact that relationships are worsening with all the Catholic factions for no readily discernible reason doesn't surprise me one bit.

Lastly, for the OP, as Sicily. That *is* a bit strange, and bears further investigation.

Cheers!

[IPoseTheQuestionYouReturnTheAnswer]

Dang, nobody has been able to pronounce my full name in my native alien tongue before. That's some quantum stuff there, don't let the kids see it.

True, catholics hate muslims. My question is why they waited till 50 turns into the game to start hating on Allah? Is 1132 the Year of the Allah Hating?

[Whacker]

Erm... Sucks not being able to edit my posts. I just noticed in Mr. Ipostthequestionandstillhaveareallyreallyreallyreallyreallyreallylongobnoxiousnickthat'sstillabigpai ntotypeoutandstillreallystretchesthehelloutofthescreen's map that he owns Jerusalem. $10 says that's your problem and cause right there.

Cheers!

[IPoseTheQuestionYouReturnTheAnswer]

Yeah true true, but at that point I had had it for a while and no crusades had been declared...does taking the holy city instantly make everyone mad at me? if so, it was kind of a delayed reaction. I guess news spreads slowly in the medieval world. Sucks not having cable TV.

[Whacker]

Yeah true true, but at that point I had had it for a while and no crusades had been declared...does taking the holy city instantly make everyone mad at me? if so, it was kind of a delayed reaction. I guess news spreads slowly in the medieval world. Sucks not having cable TV.

Of course my friend, I will keep your true nature secret.

As for the random "Allah takes 50 points of Pope Damage" theory, you've got me sir, especially if you've had it for awhile. I don't have the game on my work laptop, perhaps perusing the unpacked campaign files might reveal something? Otherwise, then I'd just chalk this one up to Random Allah Hating by the Pope-O-Matic and crew.

Cheers!

[KeyserSoze]

Yep. What the hell's going on? It makes no sense. Some sort of compicated chain reaction relating to the diplomacy AI.

It needs fixing.

[Lochar]

I am confused as well.

I started at default difficulty.

France attacked me.

Then after repulsed their attack and before I could attack them they requested a ceasefire. I did.

Then they attacked again later, so now the pope tells me to cease hostilities. I do but France rejects my ceasfire. Now I get relation drops when France was the aggresor each time, and its from several Catholic factions.

I have honored all pope requests and tried converting areas to catholicism but somehow I am losing favor.

Btw I am playing as the English.

[GrandInquisitor]

Turned into a bit of a diplomatic rant. For Catholic factions, as I've experienced in two campaigns (Medium campaign difficulty):

I think as your empire grows -- resources and manpower, not just land -- the game intentionally starts working more and more fervently against you. I say this in total seriousness. As the HRE in particular, I had alliances and very good relations with everyone for the first twenty or so turns. Then, after I'd taken some rebel settlements and was starting to rake in cash, Milan backstabbed me. Until I assassinated their family members and obliterated their faction after god knows how many turns of brutal war, I NEVER got a ceasefire -- offered or taken, even when I tried to give them huge amounts of cash. Only the Pope liked me, because I paid the first, and those since have been from my line of Cardinals.

Two turns after Milan's attack, Venice and Hungary allied against me and launched attacks as well -- BIG attacks that I barely held back. Denmark launched an attack the SAME turn as the other two somehow, and they are not fun to fight mid-game. My alliance with France simply vanished, but my spy network has kept them busy.

The stronger I became, the more relations simply dropped with everyone but my puppet Popes. I used two crusades just in the hopes of diverting the endless hordes enemies send against you (reminiscent of the miracle armies Egypt had in Rome, but coming from two or three settlements).

I hate that relations drop if you retaliate or defeat the enemy armies, because the tenuous grip on potential ceasefires evaporate in an instant. Either you accept getting punished and hope they offer a one or two turn peace treaty, or grind ahead and eventually smash them all. The only relief I got was that, when the Pope demands an end to hostilities, it means that you can't attack them; if they attack you, it's their problem, and no less than four factions were excommunicated for defying the mandate.

The ceasefire thing is what really gets me, and is perhaps my only complaint against the game. No matter how much you punish an enemy, they will NEVER sign a treaty, unless you cough up land or a huge cash wad -- and that's if you're lucky. And even when you get the ceasefire, they'll backstab you in a turn or two anyway, just like Rome.

Another reason I think the game works against you is what happened to my crusader state in Antioch (which was better defended than many of my European holdings). Egypt and the Turks, my buddies, let me have the city -- it was rebel when my Crusade stormed it. Milan and Venice were on the brink of defeat in Italy -- Milan about to die entirely. Egypt, for over ten turns, kept a full stack right outside of Antioch; the Turks kept skirmisher forces just outside Adana and Aleppo, which I annexed for buffers. The minute I conquered Milan and Venice, both my old 'allies' -- Egypt and the Turks -- mysteriously decided to attack me.

My empire's barely held on against the miracle, high tier stacks one and two city kingdoms throw at me regularly. When I should have had breathing room, I swear, the game was rigged against it. Every time you beat an enemy, another one will be raised against you -- ally or no. I'm a commercial player, not a blitzer, so the lack of diplomatic weight is a killer -- just like in the first Medieval.

[Kobal2fr]

I've seen a combination of factors. Relative power has an impact on reputation and alliances, an ally will dislike you if you rise faster than him. Contact has an impact, as I find over time relationships degrade all by themselves if you don't shell out the occasional 500 "Remember me ?" bucks or have any kind of diplomatic contact. How you play definitely has an impact too :

I once as the HRE was in good standing with all my neighbours and the Pope (not a small feat in and of itself I might add). Then I decided on a lark to invade Denmark, with which I was not allied mind you, we only had trade agreements. While the Pope backed me at first (I had full meter and a history of church building, the Danes did not.), over-time my pope-o-meter started to dwindle, which angered me a bit since my good, upstanding christian image and faith was being sullied, an image I had spent quite some cash on too. All the while I was still Friendly to So-so with the rest of my allies.

I then in the same turn moved on the Danish capital, defeated on the way a large Danish army taking *lots* of prisonners (including an heir, IIRC), executed them all and sieged Arhus. Next turn, I assaulted it, killed the king and burnt the city to the ground (slaughter population. I was in that kind of mood). Every other Christian faction instantly hated my guts, and so did the Pope. I was still listed as trustworthy, only I had become that generation's Rogue Empire of Evil, I guess. But in a trustworthy way. The Muslims didn't seem to care that much.

[AussieGiant]

I think that is the point GrandInquisitor and CA have stated it.

Once you become the pre-eminent super power then you can kiss your days of peace goodbye.

Kobal2fr,

I also think that is the way things are. Denmark is catholic and you are attacking it. Don't expect the rest of the world to sit around and wipe Denmark off the map and just say "oh well at least it didn't happen to us".

They will all hate your guts but your not untrustworth. It's not like you were allied, had made friends and then destroyed Denmark.

HYou always have to swap places with the AI and pretend you are them before saying all this is unfair.

[Furious Mental]

I'm having similar experiences as the HRE although at least Hungary is still my friend, which is funny because they are the other predominant European power in my campaign. Maybe all our smaller neighbours are united against us. They certainly make a point of electing antagonistic Popes.

[shifty157]

Well slaughtering large captured cities and executing alot of prisoners is a very good way of worsening your relations with everyone and especially the pope. Generally its better to ransom the prisoners and if the faction doesnt have the money (which they more often than not dont) you execute the prisoners at no cost to your relations.


I find though (on VH) that its almost impossible to keep good relations with anyone without putting a huge amount of effort (cash) into the relationship. Much more effort than its worth.

[Kobal2fr]

@Aussie : Oh, abstolutely, I didn't mean to say it was unfair to me or anything. I *was* being an arse, and they certainly should have been appalled by my behavior (only, well, when Germany does it it's not really aggression and barbarism, is it ? It's... it's...it's cultural, that's what it is ! Drats, I should have told 'um it was merely an expression of l'exception culturelle Allemande to get them off my back )

I also appreciate the difference between liking someone and trusting him to keep his word, so what I said was in no way meant to be read as a whine, it just struck me as funny at the time :)

Although I do believe that the other Christian factions wouldn't have objected so much to my actions had I been the "good knight" all along, freeing prisonners, fighting with fairish odds and the like. I really think it's the slaughter of a christian city that did it, in a "crime against humanity" way. Maybe I read too much into it.

[AussieGiant]

@Aussie : Oh, abstolutely, I didn't mean to say it was unfair to me or anything. I *was* being an arse, and they certainly should have been appalled by my behavior (only, well, when Germany does it it's not really aggression and barbarism, is it ? It's... it's...it's cultural, that's what it is ! Drats, I should have told 'um it was merely an expression of l'exception culturelle Allemande to get them off my back )

I also appreciate the difference between liking someone and trusting him to keep his word, so what I said was in no way meant to be read as a whine, it just struck me as funny at the time :)

Although I do believe that the other Christian factions wouldn't have objected so much to my actions had I been the "good knight" all along, freeing prisonners, fighting with fairish odds and the like. I really think it's the slaughter of a christian city that did it, in a "crime against humanity" way. Maybe I read too much into it.

LOL Kobal2fr. Well written comment.

I agree, your German...I mean come on, it's not as if you were beating up on some important faction.

And very true...I'd say the "whole sale slaughter" thing was a little over the top.

Good to see they didn't think you were a liar, just a straight forward king who is more than likely going to kill them, which in all rights would mean they hated your guts but could not call you anything worse than that

[Rothe]

I have also noticed that relations with another nation can worsen when you trespass on their lands without a military access treaty. The game does not ask you if you really want to move to their territory, and I suspect that many players will do this accidentally without realising the penalty in diplomatic relations. So, to keep good relations with other nations, do not trespass on their land even to kill rebels etc.

[AussieGiant]

I have also noticed that relations with another nation can worsen when you trespass on their lands without a military access treaty. The game does not ask you if you really want to move to their territory, and I suspect that many players will do this accidentally without realising the penalty in diplomatic relations. So, to keep good relations with other nations, do not trespass on their land even to kill rebels etc.

Good point Rothe thanks for that.

[Sir SillyDuck]

Very true about the tresspassing. I seriously fear bringing my crusader army back, to Denmark for crying out loud.. One thing I don't have use for is war with the Byzantines and Hungary

[Debe2233]

In some ways i like how relations drop or rise depending on certain situations, building siege weaponry when siegeing a city has dropped relations which is fair enough really, tresspassing on territory yah fair enough i can see how that would miff someone, slaughtering populations... yup i agree that might put some "sensitive" peoples backs up, executeing prisoners... but thats just for the noise it makes!

On the other hand... playing as the Russians, Polands crusader army on the way to Antioc decided i was a better target, they laid siege to me so i attacked back with a load of missile cav against an army with no missile troops (it was great fun), after defeating this army not only did my relations with poland become "abysmal" (noooo really?... your annoyed because i killed your army that was siegeing MY city) but with the rest of the catholic factions because i destroyed a crusadeing army. This has NOT made me do the happy dance.

(ok so i understand Poland getting annoyed, the everyone else?!)

I think attacking an army siegeing one of your cities/castles should not count as an aggressive move, i mean you CAN wait next to the city untill they attack it and then jump them with reinforcements but i have places to be people to kill, i cant have armies sit around hoping the enemy attacks.

[geala]

My experience is that attacking an army sieging my towns drops the relation with that faction but with no other.

Fact is the AI is reacting to what you do. Don't send armies near the borders, don't walk over foreign country, don't use assassins to much.

I don't understand yet the logic of excommunication. I never start a war. I only react to attacks (which is very easy playing HRE because there are a lot of attacks ). If you are too successful in "defending" and take too much enemy castles, normally the pope will warn you. But sometimes not. May have to do with the relations to the pope. But mine are always very bad, more then every others.

Yesterday, being attacked by Denmark and Poland on a regular base I decided to change political landscape a bit. I extinguished Denmark and the pope said nothing. I attacked a polish ship and was warned. Mmh. In my fight against Europes leading power, Milan, the pope never said anything even if I attacked a town. They started the war long ago, so that may mean the difference, but the Polish did the same. Perhaps the power of the faction was calculated in.

[Rothe]

Also, the papacy is somewhat affected by the home country of the pope I think. At least I had an experience in my English grand campaign that a danish born pope seemed to tolerate the Danish attacking me for a long time without calling them off. I think the danes attacked me on several occasions and only after a long war they were excommunicated, I refrained from agrression and only defended against them, or attacked when the avoid excom type mission was not active.

Many other factions in similar situations have relented as I have waited for the pope to call them off at the threat of excommunication - usually one or two turns I just sit tight in the castle. If they assault, I usually win without a hitch as I tend to garrison my border provinces quite heavily. If they have not withdrawn their sieging troops they have ofter been excommunicated making them free game for me.

[chunkynut]

The relations thing is very annoying when you destroy a fleet thats blockading you or a destroying an army thats besieging your city you get relations reduced. What did they expect when they attacked my city/port I have half the map :)

I've entered the 'final' stage of my campaign so I am beligerant, my faction pope doesn't like me much and I've abided by his 'non aggression' timelimits.

[Werner]

As the HRE in particular, I had alliances and very good relations with everyone for the first twenty or so turns. Then, after I'd taken some rebel settlements and was starting to rake in cash, Milan backstabbed me.....I NEVER got a ceasefire -- offered or taken, even when I tried to give them huge amounts of cash.

Same here. I play my sweet ass time in this game and am only on turn 55 of HRE campaign. It seems that some nations, no matter how hard you try to be nice or forgiving, just don't care and will never ceasefire you. I've had this problem with Venice, Denmark, and Milan. All of which have been backed into a corner on the map, there is no chance of them ever fighting their way out, yet they spit on my diplomat everytime he offers peace. Doesn't seem right. I used to always be the player who beat a nation down, offered a ceasefire for all they had, and then just watched them for awhile. If they got too strong again I'd break ceasefire and beat 'em down again. That seems impossible to do in this game because the diplomacy is so screwy. I will say one thing though, I am currently allied with England, Egypt, Byzantium, and Russia and none of those countries have tried to back stab me yet. We will see how nice they are after I wipe several factions out, which is about to happen in the next few turns.

As for the original poster, I don't know why every turn relations would go down with all of the nations, but I do know that if you walk your troops through enemy territory without their permission you'll piss them off and usually get a "Relations Worsened" message pop-up. Took me forever to figure out why

[Aenlic]

The funniest part of the "relations worsened" message you get when you move a stack into another faction's territory, is that you get it again when you head back out. Just moving through another faction's territory will hurt relations, even if you're just trying to get back out after being told to go away.

[The_Pope]

id like to have a feature to inform other nations that their relations have worsened with me because of their transgressions. Like a blockade or entering my territory. Seems one sided.

I find the relationship with the pope easy to control, the secret is money, from the start send a diplomat, go with his missions, give gifts, but above all money. The pope seems to always be broke! and hes so greedy. It will all lead to a perfect relationship

This way if he tells you to back off a catholic country for 7 turns, you can ignore him, your relations will be good enough that it wont result in excommunication only a decrease, and you can give him 1000 florins and your relations will instantly return to pre-ingore levels.

Sure enough you with this method end up with more cardinals than any other in the college, and have enough votes to elect your own cardinal as Pope (this is the best part!)

I have two cardinals already and im only on turn 13 of a new campaign.

With his backing almost any catholic nation that attacks you will be excommunicated, resulting in you being able to call a crusade against them!

[Whacker]

id like to have a feature to inform other nations that their relations have worsened with me because of their transgressions. Like a blockade or entering my territory. Seems one sided.

Agreed, and I think I posted something like this in the patch wishlist. Being able to tell other factions to get the *(@#(*$ off our lands or suffer the consequences would be good diplomatically. Being able to do this without a diplomat close is also a must. Also making sure that THEY suffer the consequences, and the fact that if THEY do not get off our lands, then THEY are the ones who should be considered the aggressors and should lose public face as such is a must.

Don't forget to throw your comments in the patch wishlist thread, even if you agree or disagree with all or some of what I just said!

[Kobal2fr]

Agreed, and I think I posted something like this in the patch wishlist. Being able to tell other factions to get the *(@#(*$ off our lands or suffer the consequences would be good diplomatically. Being able to do this without a diplomat close is also a must. Also making sure that THEY suffer the consequences, and the fact that if THEY do not get off our lands, then THEY are the ones who should be considered the aggressors and should lose public face as such is a must.

Don't forget to throw your comments in the patch wishlist thread, even if you agree or disagree with all or some of what I just said!

Usually, moving troops right next to their stack (but without actually attacking) does the trick. They get the message, and either go home or attack outright.

[Whacker]

Usually, moving troops right next to their stack (but without actually attacking) does the trick. They get the message, and either go home or attack outright.

True again. The point here though is diplomacy though. I'd like to be able to engage them in a bit of dialogue first... Ya know, tell them where to shove it sideways? Then, if they don't get the message and as such, technically start the conflict through their act of war (by not moving), then I'll send the remains of their stack back home in a shoebox.