English vs. Cavalry (bug?)

[Nemo84]

Hi everybody.
I just noticed something very strange in my English campaign. Units with short two-handed weapons such as billmen or dismounted English knights perform very poorly against cavalry, even though their description says they are dangerous to cavalry. So I ran a couple of tests 1vs1, and found something very strange.

First test:
My unit of dismounted English knights vs CPU militia cavalry. We both charge, and take about 20 casualties each. Bit of fighting with only casualties on my side, enemy breaks off without casualties, charges again, 5 casualties each side, rinse repeat until my unit is dead. Cavalry takes no casualties outside of charging, except 4 who were killed by my captain (who has a longsword).

Second test:
My unit of militia cavalry vs CPU English dismounted knights. I walked my unit in front of the enemy and then stopped. I suffered again about about 20 dead cavalry from the English charge, and then I just stayed in combat. End result: English unit routed, 25-30 dead cavalry, all of those either from the charge or the captain. And I didn't even have to perform a charge.

All charges were head on, units were all with base experience, no upgrades. And when I zoomed in on the English, I saw the problem: none of the knights were actually fighting! They blocked attacks and moved around but not once did I see a knight actually swing its big warhammer (or whatever that weapon is called) outside of them charging. They move up to a horse, then just float a bit back, and that's it. Billmen give the same results. I searched these forums, and couldn't find anything about this.

Is it a known bug, is it WAD or is it just me?

[Quin]

I noticed the same thing too. I've sent 15 Billment to deal with 2 general's bodyguards. They surronded them but didn't even try to hit them. They've just stood there, blocking strikes and slowly falling, one by one.

I'm afraid that's another bug...

[Nemo84]

Little update:
French dismounted noble knights have the same problem, while German zweihanders and dismounted gothic knights just slaughter the cavalry. So I definitely think this is a serious bug.

[JFC]

100% Agree. On one occassion I had 108 Dismounted English Knights against 1 Spanish Janite. He either was in touch with THE FORCE or it was a bug as he was slaying them left, right and chelsea. With the note saying "Victory is a certainty ,etc." Second was against 40 General's Bodyguard, totally being hammered by about 80 Dismounted knights and 80 (two silver chevrons, upgraded armour) Knights Hospitaller. In the end I had 10 Dis Knights and 15 Hospitaller. It's just not possible.

[Noong]

The billmen and the dismounted guys don't actually have the trait of "good against cavalry", they only have it mentioned in their historical description. I think without that trait any unit will get slaughtered by cavalry.

Whether it is was intentional by CA or not I don't know.

[JeffBag]

And neither do zweihanders have the trait. Go look it up in custom battles yourself; those bugged people really do not attempt an attack at all. I myself noticed it during the Agincourt battle when I sent a unit of billmen and a unit of dismounted English Knights to attack the French cavalry that were coming from the back.

[CaptainSolo]

I have to agree with the rest of you,it's a big turn around from MTW where billmen could seriously damage static cavalry in melee.
I don't know what the rest of you think but i'm struggling to find a role for billmen at the moment which is a shame as there a unique unit.At the moment armoured swordsmen are a much better bet in every situation i can think of.

[JeffBag]

They should destroy cavalry in melee with their stats, if they would try to swing in the first place. I think this problem got in after they removed the spinning animation for the two-handed attack. I do remember in the first PCGamer demo when the spinning attack animation was still in, they were beating up the French knights at Agincourt.

I just tested a unit of Transyvanian peasants against Feudal Knights, they have halberds, so a different anim set, but no spear wall ability. Stats are 5 attack and 1 defense, and they absolutely butchered the Feudal Knights. Therefore, Billmen, with 15 attack and 3 defense, must surely be bugged.

[maestro]

I'ev noticed a lot of my English infantry troops are totally ineffective against Cav. Even when it's like 4 units Vs 1, they just don't engage. I think they just stand there and insult the cavalry, who promptly kill them fo rbeing rude. But then - getting units to actually engage anything, ever, is very, very difficult and buggy in M2.

[Headlocked]

But then - getting units to actually engage anything, ever, is very, very difficult and buggy in M2.

eh bit of an exaggeration there?

billmen are good versus other infantry. They're cheap, effective and can hold the line. Mainstay of my armies, always 4 in the first line, and i play VH/VH.


But yah, v. Cavalry they leave a something to be desired.
Oh and yes it doesn't say in their stats that they are good versus cavalry.
just my :)

HDD

[JeffBag]

The problem is not in the stats, nor the supposed capabilities of the billmen, it is in the animation, causing them not to attack. Checking over at twcenter.net forums, it is reported that stationary unit of cavalry were completely eating up English foot knights, billmen, Varangian guards, Norse axemen. If 1 stationary unit of cavarly can melee through 1 unit of English foot knights, it is most certainly not behaving properly.

[CaptainSolo]

No i agree,hopefully it is something that will be improved in the forthcoming patch.

[BigTex]

I've double checked this and it not only effects billmen, but all 2 handed axemen also. Varangian guard get murdered by militia cavalry, only causing casualties on the charge. It's almost a weapon reach issue, they manuever to attack but they never can. Definately a game killing bug for almost any faction with strong axe armed infantry.

[AussieGiant]

Bump just to make sure this gets on the Bug list!!

[BigTex]

Bump just to make sure this gets on the Bug list!!

You could always post it in the Bug Thread but up to you.

[AussieGiant]

You could always post it in the Bug Thread but up to you.

Yeah, I just thought of that Big T.

So I just did.

[SirAndrewD]

I don't know about a bug, but I sure got some ridiculous results in a battle yesterday. I caught Bordeaux with only a General's Bodyguard unit of 53 defending (It was the King's retinue to be fair). I assaulted with 1700 men, mostly Heavy Billmen and Dismounted English Knights. After my spies opened the front door of the Castle, I stormed in with one mounted unit of Feudal Knights and the balance of my Infantry, expecting a quick victory. I charged in with my Feudal Knights, and sent in flank and rear attacks with my English Knights and Billmen. Instead of victory, what I got was slaughtered. Every single man in my first wave was wiped out while only killing the French King and about 20 of his bodyguards. Shocked, I sent in the rest of my troops and watched them too get massacred. 20 French Bodyguards completely routed every single infantry unit I had, even after I had them surrounded and hit them with multiple charges. I finally limped in Yeoman Archers and my last reserves of mounted Knights and had to shoot the 14 or so remaining bodyguards to death. Final result of the battle, I lost 845 Infantry to kill 53. Even if Billmen and English Knights aren't "Good Against Cavalry" that kind of result shouldn't happen.

[Kobal2fr]

I've double checked this and it not only effects billmen, but all 2 handed axemen also. Varangian guard get murdered by militia cavalry, only causing casualties on the charge. It's almost a weapon reach issue, they manuever to attack but they never can. Definately a game killing bug for almost any faction with strong axe armed infantry.

Also happened to me with Muslim jihad peasant fanatics with 2H club (can't remember their proper name, Futuwwa'n I think, or something like that). Charged them in Jinettes caught in a castle gate. End result : 0 casualties for the Jinettes, all fanatics dead, didn't swing. I assume they share the 2H axe animation set.

[Bugout]

You guys made me curious so I tried custom battles with all the 2 handed weapon infantry against hobilars. In every case the hobilars allowed the infantry to charge them. Even tried loose formations to see if they needed more room to swing their weapons. I can confirm that all the axe, polearm, billhook and club wielding infantry will not attack cavalry the only damage they can do is from charging. However pikes, halberds and 2 handed swords will do just fine. I was slightly confused at first because they did a few casualties during the fight until I noticed that the general was the one killing them with his sword. I certainly hope that this will get patched soon.

[AussieGiant]

I don't know about a bug, but I sure got some ridiculous results in a battle yesterday. I caught Bordeaux with only a General's Bodyguard unit of 53 defending (It was the King's retinue to be fair). I assaulted with 1700 men, mostly Heavy Billmen and Dismounted English Knights. After my spies opened the front door of the Castle, I stormed in with one mounted unit of Feudal Knights and the balance of my Infantry, expecting a quick victory. I charged in with my Feudal Knights, and sent in flank and rear attacks with my English Knights and Billmen. Instead of victory, what I got was slaughtered. Every single man in my first wave was wiped out while only killing the French King and about 20 of his bodyguards. Shocked, I sent in the rest of my troops and watched them too get massacred. 20 French Bodyguards completely routed every single infantry unit I had, even after I had them surrounded and hit them with multiple charges. I finally limped in Yeoman Archers and my last reserves of mounted Knights and had to shoot the 14 or so remaining bodyguards to death. Final result of the battle, I lost 845 Infantry to kill 53. Even if Billmen and English Knights aren't "Good Against Cavalry" that kind of result shouldn't happen.

Hi SirAndrewD,

Well the main problem is, you just used the bugged infantry v cav tactic. Units with two handed weapons don't not attack cav after the initial charge. That's why you lost. Until the patch is out use Armoured Swordsmen.

[Doug-Thompson]

Does open or closed formation or depth of the ranks have any effect on this?

I just happened to try out Turkish polearm troops last night, which were one of my favorite units in MTW1, and had no problems at all.

[JeffBag]

@ Doug-Thompson

Billmen's attack animation is not the same as Polearm animations.

Billmen, Varangian Guards, Tabardariyya, Norse Axemen, Dismounted English Knights, Dismounted Noble Knights, Pilgrims, etc have the bugged animation.

Halberdiers share the same animation as Zweihanders, so they work perfectly okay.

[BigTex]

@ Doug-Thompson

Billmen's attack animation is not the same as Polearm animations.

Billmen, Varangian Guards, Tabardariyya, Norse Axemen, Dismounted English Knights, Dismounted Noble Knights, Pilgrims, etc have the bugged animation.

Halberdiers share the same animation as Zweihanders, so they work perfectly okay.

I doubt it's an animation problem. I've seen the billmen other 2handed axemen swing at the cavalry. Even attempt to swing, they just don't ever kill the cav. I'ts almost a reach problem, or maybe a parry lock problem. I've seen it plenty of times with billmen, they will attempt the swing at the cav and end up moving to parry. It probably isnt as simple as an animation problem. But we will know soon, they should have the update list out shortly.

[Doug-Thompson]

I doubt it's an animation problem. I've seen the billmen other 2handed axemen swing at the cavalry. Even attempt to swing, they just don't ever kill the cav. I'ts almost a reach problem, or maybe a parry lock problem. I've seen it plenty of times with billmen, they will attempt the swing at the cav and end up moving to parry. It probably isnt as simple as an animation problem. But we will know soon, they should have the update list out shortly.

Checked this out at home with English Billmen, and saw the light.


Now I wonder if Jihad pilgrams are affected. No problem I've seen so far, but I wasn't looking closely enough, apparently.

[Whacker]

I doubt it's an animation problem. I've seen the billmen other 2handed axemen swing at the cavalry. Even attempt to swing, they just don't ever kill the cav. I'ts almost a reach problem, or maybe a parry lock problem. I've seen it plenty of times with billmen, they will attempt the swing at the cav and end up moving to parry. It probably isnt as simple as an animation problem. But we will know soon, they should have the update list out shortly.

Interesting discrepancy. I just ran billmen vs scottish mailed knights 5 times, the 3 times my guys didn't route on impact, I watched the melee very closely. I never once saw the billmen try to swing at the cav. I saw plenty of parry type animations, but never once did they attempt to swing as far as I could tell.

/shrug

[JeffBag]

Now I wonder if Jihad pilgrams are affected. No problem I've seen so far, but I wasn't looking closely enough, apparently.

Yep those Mutatawwi'a are affected too.

[Djurre]

I agree