Spear/Javelin trick (long)

**Doug-Thompson** · 11-22-2006, 20:23

Tired of losing middling Muslim spear units to armored cavalry, I tried something I haven't seen referred to in the Org before. If someone did this in RTW and posted before, my apologies.

I put a unit of Saracen Militia into a "hedgehog" formation (proper term and spelling, please?) Behind them, I put one unit of skirmishing Kurdish javelinmen. Grassy plain, medium settings.

For the opponents, I chose Knights Hospitaliers. No upgrades on either side. Normal unit size.

In normal line formation, the knights would wipe out the spears and then the skirmishers, no problem.

This time, the knights charged the hedgehog. They caused frightful casualties, but the spear unit didn't run, and much of the impact of the knight's charge appeared wasted. Only the knights in the center made good contact. The wings just hit the open air.

The knights lapped around the spears and were in the process of killing them when this game's new, improved javelins hit. The knights backs were turned and range was close. The results were severe, more than making up for any "friendly fire" casualties. I'm sorry for not writing down the numbers and being more thorough.

Anyway, the knights had to break off combat with the spears and engage the skirmishers. Javelin-unit melee is not great but they didn't die off immediately, especially since they skirmished away at first. My remaining spearmen — all seven of them out of a unit of 75 — went out of the hedgehog and attacked the knights from behind.

The result: Not only were the Hospitalliers completely wiped out, but about half my spearmen and skirmisher casualties were either prisonsers who were returned to me or casualties who healed.

I tried the same thing in my Egyptian campaign game, only this time I had a siege to contend with. I had:

1. Two units of full-strength Saracen militia.
2. One under-strength unit (58 out of 75) Saracen militia.
3. Two units of Kurdish Javelinmen
4. Four Arab cavalry with javelins.

There were also a lot of Mamelukes Archers and melee cav I never used.

The city was defended by a Turkish family member with a full unit of bodyguard cavalry and two units of Turkish archers. My spy opened the gate.

The spears went in first, one behind the other in column formation. As they walked toward the city square, the defending archers began to fire and the bodyguard began to move. I went into hedgehog in the street.

The bodyguard unit attacked, then the javelins hit. The leading group of spears remained in hedgehog while the supporting two groups popped out and attacked. The bodyguard troops quickly died to a man. The Arab cavalry then attacked the archers in melee mode. While the enemy archers were fighting, my spears rushed up and finished the job. So did the javellinmen, who may not have the best melee but are good enough to kill archers.

**Oleander Ardens** · 11-23-2006, 08:48

Hm interesting, could you post a screenshot please?

Does I look perhaps like this?

Knights....................._______
..............................._______

Spearmen....................../\
.................................//.\\
Javs........................__________

Cheers
OA

**Only_A_Millitary_Genius** · 11-23-2006, 17:11

Assuming I understand "Hedgehog formation" that triangle should be a circle.

**Whacker** · 11-23-2006, 17:39

Doug, a few questions. Did the knights break off and come after your skirmishers when your spears routed? Or did your spears not route and they just decided to go after the skirmishers? Which unit was your general in, and when in the battle did he die (if he did)?

If that is the case, it would seem that this AI routine could be improved by simply waiting until waiting for the spears to route or be destroyed, then going after the skirmishers to avoid a rear attack.

**wraithdt** · 11-23-2006, 18:32

The hedghog formation you're speaking of is called schiltron in the game.

I've only just recently used it against the Mongols as I've never needed to prior to their invasion. Playing as Venice on H/VH, my units of 6 Italian Spear Militias held off a far superior and overwhelming force of Mongol Cavalry(various sorts) just outside my city walls(it was a siege assault).

After barely winning the battle I can safely conclude that almost any spear armed units in schiltron formation will cause massive damage to cavalry forces, thats if they're stupid enough to charge it.

**Doug-Thompson** · 11-23-2006, 18:48

Originally Posted by Whacker

Doug, a few questions. Did the knights break off and come after your skirmishers when your spears routed? Or did your spears not route and they just decided to go after the skirmishers?

The spears did not rout. The knights broke off and attacked the skirmishers after the first javelin throw, IIRC.

Which unit was your general in, and when in the battle did he die (if he did)?

The general did not die. He was in the spears. One of the advantages of the schiltron (thanks, wraithdt) is that the general is in the center.

Originally Posted by wraithdt

After barely winning the battle I can safely conclude that almost any spear armed units in schiltron formation will cause massive damage to cavalry forces, thats if they're stupid enough to charge it.

Not bad against other infantry, either.

Oleander Ardens: Yes, you have the idea. I'll try posting some screenshots, but it will be Monday at the earliest. I'm on my way out of town.

**Whacker** · 11-23-2006, 18:57

Not being able to edit my posts kinda stinks.

On second thought, it'd seem to be an even better idea to have the AI knights go after the skirmishers beforehand, instead of after the spears first.

**katank** · 11-24-2006, 17:19

Using spears to pin and javs to kill was used in the original MTW as well against AI jedi generals. Now I really miss the naptha. I used to pin one of those jedi Byz princes with a cheapo spear unit, run my naptha throwers right behind them and do a kaboom. Everything dies, my spears rout, but the enemy general is invariably dead.

Schiltron certainly gives new possibilities, however. It also appears you no longer need to maneuver the javs from the description. Is this the case?

**Doug-Thompson** · 11-25-2006, 21:14

@katank

Yo, Blitz brother.

There are naptha units in this game. I saw them in the custom battle selection screen for Egypt. I don't know what you have to do to get them. The tech tree I got with the game only shows Catholic units.

I'll check next time I switch my Muslim game on.

No, you don't have to manuever the javelin units into postion. Just put them well within range of the schiltron.

**Darius** · 11-26-2006, 18:12

Yea Naptha throwers are still quite deadly and sometimes seem to throw with their eyes closed (It burns the skin!!) and are very very effective when you're able to get your foes to bunch up together, such as in sieges or bridge battles especially.

Does anyone know if going into schiltron actually provides any substantial stat boosts?

**katank** · 11-26-2006, 18:40

@ Doug Thompson, good to see ya around too. Still got my blitz on. Currently blitzing through my English game. Crazy AIs choose my targets for me. At war with 5 factions. I figured I wouldn't have any competition for control of Papacy nor any one to crusade against me if I'm the only Catholic faction alive, right?

There are still napthas? Joy to the world. I shall kamikaze bomb my way to victory!

I'm just really enjoying siege units right now for targeting mass formations.

**Faenaris** · 11-26-2006, 19:55

I just love Naffatun. First time I watched them in action, I nearly giggled like a little schoolgirl while yelling "bombs away!". One unit knocked out one single spearmen unit that stood still for too long.