Campaign AI still disappointingly stupid?

[GFX707]

Having played the M2TW campaign now, it seems to me that the campaign AI is still suicidal and stupid. It may be better at apologising for its stupidity now, though, which is a great thing, and more agreeable than completely and utterly refusing to make any deals with you ever, but the old pattern is still there where even though it has 1 province and 200 peasants and you own most of Europe and could crush anyone else on the map it will siege one of your provinces, or more frequently the AI navy will blockade one of your ports or try to assassinate someone insignificant even if you've been allies for 150 turns.

The AI navies still seem to sail around at random and whenever they touch one of your ports they blockade it....or at least that's what it seems like.

The AI still sends multiple one-unit stacks around instead of knowing what to do with the armies.

The AI's army composition is usually 1/2 crossbows, 1/4 siege equipment and some rubbish melee troops, which is both easy and extremely tedious to beat.

It also seems to lack the ability to garrison, and frequently tries to siege my full-stack citadels with 1 general's unit and some archers.

Here is a typical campaign:

1) I play peacefully, building up my cities and armies.
2) Some AI neighbour (probably an ally) attacks one of my cities. Things seem like they will be exciting.
3) I beat my enemy and back to more peace.
4) Another AI neighbour (Once again, probably an ally) comes up and blockades my port
5) I beat that enemy and back to more peace.
6) Return to step 4.

I don't have to declare war once to win the campaign because the AI is suicidal.

I am impressed with the battlemap AI, especially how the enemies retreat stage by stage in city/castle assaults, and I can't wait to try out the battlemap AI on VH after hearing that it apparently gets more intelligent now instead of unrealistic bonuses, but does anyone else think that the same old pathetic campaign AI still exists from RTW?

[Doug-Thompson]

I think that a completely detached, objective look at this forum would conclude that it's somewhat dysfunctional because the same topics keep getting new threads.

[econ21]

To GFX07 - for a post like that, you really have to state your campaign difficulty level - and ideally your faction.

In my VH/VH English campaign, it's the challenge at the strategic level that has impressed me the most. I got some nasty shocks on the battlemap at first, but once I adjusted, I've been mowing down the AI with my longbows faster than you could say "passive AI bug" three hundred times.

The big change for me has been on the campaign map. It feels almost like the Risk style map of STW and MTW. Especially early on, I was always thinking if I move aggressively here, the AI will strike at the gap I have opened up. Just like with STW/MTW, invading from one province could expose it to simultaneous reciprocal counter-invasion. In my M2TW English campaign, it's turn 90 - Scotland is gone, France almost gone - but it's still tight: Denmark and Milan have been cowed, but now Spain and Sicily are stepping up to the fight.

I am not sure how much of that "tightness" of the campaign is due to better campaign AI as opposed to other improvements - the tighter economy; the bloodier battles etc. But there certainly is better AI. I've particularly noticed the ability of the AI to sometimes keep its armies out of reach of my powerful stacks; and to sometimes keep its armies adjacent for mutual support.

To be honest, I have not noticed most of the other stuff you mention - very few one unit stacks nor inappropriate stack troop mixes (try fighting the Danes - their stacks can be hardcore) etc. By contrast, those two flaws were major problems in RTW and MTW (respectively).

Now if by "stupid" and "suicidal" AI, you mean "psychotic", then you may have a point. On VH, all my neighbours have sooner or later attacked me. But then they always have in TW on higher difficulty levels. Play Oda in STW, HRE in MTW or Rome in RTR. I am top dog and the only way they can hope to win is by working as a pack to tear me down. I don't particularly like it, but with a game called "Total War", I can't sue CA under trade descriptions.


BTW - why do discussions of the AI always have to involve the words "pathetic" and "stupid" etc.? It's a computer program, for crying out loud, not a person. It's like kicking a dog for not being philosophical enough. Write me a "fantastic" and "clever" AI for a game as complicated as TW, then you'll be qualified to be so derogatory.

[IPoseTheQuestionYouReturnTheAnswer]

This is probably not a common case, but it's my situation nonetheless: As the Turks, I've been allied with the Venetians for at least 50 or so turns now. We've fought in tons of naval battles together against Russia and the Byzantines, and have fought a couple land battles and 1 siege together. It's been pretty cool. What's more, is that I am a Muslim faction. Also, I declared a Jihad on Rome and captured it from the Papacy, then the pope called a crusade on Rome to get it back. Every catholic faction left answered it - except Venice. They honored our alliance and stayed away.

I haven't been giving them money, either. We just have mutual enemies, and have been supporting each other pretty well. Good stuff.

[Reapz]

GFX707 I think the campaign AI is improved from RTW. VH in RTW means the AI factions just outbuild you with stack after stack of armies even though its economically impossible and its not much fun after the novelty of winning a few times wears off. In M2 however I don't see any of that type of AI advantage on VH. I am not sure what faction you are playing but try playing Rus on VH/VH and I don't think you will have the kind of experience you described. I'm about 280 turns into a great Rus vh/vh campaign where the AI did all kinds of "clever" things that really taxed my brain for a while. The AI did not let me build up peacefully it was a bloodbath from about 15 turns onwards. I don't think I have been "back to peace" for about 200 turns. Allies never attacked me. I had a couple of encounters with small armies that had no business wandering around hostile territory but I made that mistake myself.

[NihilisticCow]

I'm now playing my third VH/VH campaign, what I have noticed is that some factions seem to build fairly reasonable armies but others seem to just build really silly ones. The Italian states are the best example of it, rarely do I see one of their stacks that has less than 10 crossbows in it and quite often approaching 15... It just makes it far too easy to walk over their armies. With a proper army the battlefield AI does do a half decent job at times, though not really compared with human players ofc, but it just is a bit frustrating that it keeps getting fed rather rubbish armies that have no chance of winning by the strategic level AI.

It also seems to make quite a few irrational decisions, maybe that is more the VH campaign difficulty, but breaking an alliance to siege a well defended city with a very weak army and to retreat immeadiately next turn and request a cease fire seems.... well mad.

[neilm85uk]

In an English campaign Edinburgh, taken from the Scots, was assaulted by eight units of cavalry. This was quite amusing when I reached the battle map.

[wzup]

In an English campaign Edinburgh, taken from the Scots, was assaulted by eight units of cavalry. This was quite amusing when I reached the battle map.

they tried to pull that on me too

[Furious Mental]

One unit stacks? I don't know what you're talking about. In my HRE campaign I haven't been the subject of one such attack- the AI always sends a full stack or close to one my way.

[Senta]

i play on h/h with Poland. been at war with all of my neighbours for over 30 turns. HRE and Denmark keeps coming at me, i beat them back, usually annihilating their armies and yet they come back... they do bring lots of troops but after i have won every battle decisively and taken some teritories from them on my penal expedition, you'd think they would stop... at least Russia is being extremely passive, sending priests and trying to bribe my generals.

[Werner]

One unit stacks? I don't know what you're talking about. In my HRE campaign I haven't been the subject of one such attack- the AI always sends a full stack or close to one my way.

Same in my HRE campaign. And I am playing m/m

[GFX707]

Why do people say "I've been at war with all of my neighbours for years" like it's a great thing? Why is it that most campaigns, alliance or good relations or your army dwarfing theirs or not, you're just going to get attacked by all of your neighbours no matter what you do in this game? Isn't that a little mindless? Sure, you get all the fights you want, but it's just unrealistic. Like I said, in order to win the campaign, I didn't have to declare war once.

[GFX707]

Same in my HRE campaign. And I am playing m/m

I really wish I could say the same, but currently Rennes, a citadel containing some 15 units (all infantry), is under siege by 2 units of the French....a general and some archers.

[Reapz]

Why do people say "I've been at war with all of my neighbours for years" like it's a great thing? Why is it that most campaigns, alliance or good relations or your army dwarfing theirs or not, you're just going to get attacked by all of your neighbours no matter what you do in this game? Isn't that a little mindless? Sure, you get all the fights you want, but it's just unrealistic. Like I said, in order to win the campaign, I didn't have to declare war once.

GFX if you don't try to expand and capture 45 provinces perhaps they might not all attack you but what is the point of that. It is a Total War strategy game after all. Also I'm not sure what you mean by "unrealistic" as history is replete with examples of allies attacking allies. It would be a pretty boring game if an alliance put an end to the possibility of being attacked.

What difficulty settings are you playing with and what factions?

[Musashi]

Heh, in my current campaign as France, I've been allied with Spain, Portugal, Venice, Sicily, the Papal States, Poland and Byzantium for hundreds of turns.

My initial adversary was England (Despite my best intentions... they got themselves excommunicated for picking on the Scots and the Pope ordered me to break my alliance with them) but I was allied with everyone else... Then the HRE decided to attack me, and Milan broke their alliance with me to keep their alliance with the HRE... Everyone else stuck by me (I've had my borders in contact with Spain and Portugal for ages too) and I got my highest ranking Cardinal made pope.

Milan, the HRE, and England have all been on an extreme downhill slide ever since.

Actually the HRE did something quite intelligent and made up with me, tried to renew alliances and everything, realizing that attacking me would only get them excommunicated and gangbanged by their myriad enemies.

Unfortunately for them I don't forgive easily, so I assured their ambassador that all was forgiven and forgotten, and as soon as he left I called in my four best assassins and told them to go to work.

Took about ten years to wipe out the HRE's ruling line... Totally worth it though.

[Waleed]

Currently I am playing as the moors and I've taken all of Iberia and I am pushing the English out of France. I was once at war with the French but now have an alliance. I've had an alliance with them for 30 years and they didn't attack. They had two provinces left which were Ile de France and the provence to the right of toulouse (forgot the name). I always kept a big enough army to defend right next to their border in case they tried to pull anything. They didn't even dare invade me. The English sailed in reinforcements and two of my armies got bogged down in fighting near Caen and I needed to send my army on the French border up to support them. 3 turns after I did this the French saw that toulouse was poorly defended and decided to try to besiege the settlement.

I wouldn't call the Campaign AI dumb, rather, opportunistic. You can have a faithful ally but you need to show them you can defend yourself should they try to pull anything. The bigger you become and the smaller your border allies are the more dangeous they are. They may try to take a province or two of yours for their own preservation.

[Cataphract_Of_The_City]

I think that the campaign AI is bad too. In my Byzantine campaign, I am holding Adana and Caesaria. I am at war with the Turks and he Egyptians. The Mongols arrive in Yerevan. They declare war on the Turks though they haven't moved and there was no Turkish army around. Instead of attacking the lightly (2-3 units max) Turkish cities (no turkish field army) they go south towards Edessa which is Egyptian. The Egyptians have about 4 armies running around this area plus strong garrisons. The Mongols do not attack Edessa. They do not attack Aleppo. They come all the way to Antioch!! No you would expect the Egyptians to do something. Concentrate those 4 field armies on the Mongols sieging Antioch and using the full stack of the city garrison fight a glorious battle. By the way, I have modded down the Mongols. Instead of 8+ stacks they now have 3 so they can actually be handled by the AI. Anyway, the Egyptians do absolutely nothing. They don't even move their armies. They Mongols starve the city out for 9 turns. In the 7 turn the Egyptians declare a crusade on Constatinople. I have an eastern army on the adana/antioch border and waiting. The Egyptians pass by the besieged Antioch. The Mongols do nothing!! They have 2 stacksof the best troops with amazing generals and they do nothing at all when an Egyptian army passes just by them. If that is not a sure sign that the campaign AI is pathetic, I don't what is.

[KARTLOS]

my main gripe is that they fail to defend their cities properly, or respond effectively to war
for example as the poles on h/h i crusaded my way through the holy land taking every city from antioch down. the first egyptian city i took was prob damscus, nevertheless by the time ireach alexandria it is still not properly garrisoned. there was several reasonably sized egyptian armies nearby which failed to respond. the next turn i lay seige to the poorly garrisoned caiiro. there was afull stack nearby which could have responded, yet failed to do so. end result the next turn my bedraggled crusader army took the city destroying the egyptian faction. this really shouldnt have been posible they had enough trooops in the area to stop me but completeely failed to respond.

[Musashi]

I wouldn't call the Campaign AI dumb, rather, opportunistic. You can have a faithful ally but you need to show them you can defend yourself should they try to pull anything. The bigger you become and the smaller your border allies are the more dangeous they are. They may try to take a province or two of yours for their own preservation.

Sounds like international politics in the real world to me.