Quo Vadimus?

**therother** · 09-03-2006, 23:36

The title asks where we are we going, but perhaps a better way of describing the raison d'etre of this thread was given to me a few months back when I first mooted the idea: 'New game, new members, let's get ready - how can we do better?'. This thread is therefore intended to review the current status of the Org, to suggest how we can consolidate on our many strengths as a community, and how to improve things that are perhaps not going so well. The focus will primarily be the on topic TW forums.

Many of us have probably enjoyed the recent M2TW background competition, which was started up by a couple of the Org's staff and subsequently received the full backing of CA (it was featured prominently on their official site). That it ran so successfully, with many fine entries that can be enjoyed by the community at large, is a credit to those who organised the competition. Recent additions such as the mod links and download section have undoubtedly been a significant improvement to the site. My congrats and sincere thanks go out to the members of staff who spent much time and effort getting that up and running, especially as it makes such effective use of the excellent modding resources we have to offer the community here at the Org. Another fine example is the reinvigorated PBEM forum, which has taken on a new lease of life recently, and next door the 3rd annual story contest showcased more of the Org's resident talent, with the Mead Hall library effectively indexing the many stories that have been posted over the years. In similar vein, initiatives like the Org Gazette are definitely a positive development, and need to be encouraged and nurtured.

Kudos also go to the Org's cadre of guide writers, with many worthy contributions housed here at the Org, one of which has been highly praised by the developers themselves. The Ludus Magna, the game mechanics research forum, has been also been a success (although I admit a modicum of bias here), collating technical material for easy access for players and modders alike. I hope it will be continued with M2TW.

I apologise if I -- as undoubtedly will be the case -- have missed something out: feel free to suggest other initiatives that have contributed significantly to the on-topic Org forums over the past few months and years.

Despite all these varied positives, a number of Members I've spoken to of late about the strategic direction of the Org have given me the general impression that a malaise appears to have settled over the board, with established Members expressing some serious concerns.

For much of its existence, the Org has been the de facto unofficial Total War site. Over the last two years, this position has been gradually eroded to such an extent that the Org is a currently half the size of the current largest board, and the erosion continues unabated. I would argue that the rate of decline is perhaps even accelerating. Whilst the quality of the posts around the Org hasn't (yet) diminished IMO, and we retain many of the outstanding members of the community from yesteryear, it is also true that an ever increasing proportion of the more recent exceptional members (in particular modders) make their main TW contributions elsewhere. The Total War online community has expanded hugely in recent years, but the Org has become an ever smaller part of it. Given the vast strengths of this community, one is forced to face some uncomfortable truths about why this might have happened.

Of greatest concern to me, as both a Member and as a modder, is that a significant number of new (and existing) RTW modders have chosen to base their mods and their modding efforts elsewhere. In the days of MTW, and those leading up to the release of RTW, the Org could lay claim to the title of "Home of TW modding". Not any longer. This trend may well continue with M2TW: I have no reason to believe that it will not, and every reason to believe that it will. It's certainly clear that many mods will be primarily based on other sites, as other sites have already started to designate hosted forums. No such (public) effort appears underway at the Org.

Of paramount importance, and underpinning everything else, is therefore the attractiveness of the site to new Members and for existing Member of the community to join up here. I'd like to raise three issues that I think have a detrimental effect on this, and may be why so many new Members decide to go elsewhere to discuss and mod the Total War games.

Firstly, the front page of the site hasn't changed much in years, and despite the valiant recent efforts of a few staff members to make the current design work, it still reflects poorly on the Org. Many (I would say vital) functions are housed there, principally the Org's upload/download facilities (the existence of which is generally not well known), but the site navigation, for instance, is far from straightforward and there is a general dearth of dynamic content. Compounding this, a fair proportion of the front page links point to outdated content. A radical overhaul and redesign is desperately needed, hopefully adding much more integration with the forums.

Secondly, the very restrictive (and inconsistent) nature of the posting and user account permissions granted to new Members (often referred to by staff and others as the "Entrance Hall system") is likely to be a major annoyance for new Members. It has been my experience that there is strong support amongst certain factions of the staff for this system, but also a number of detractors. Which perhaps accounts for the widely ranging permissions granted to new Members (just have a look at the complexity of the posting permissions in the Guild FAQ for details). Indeed, arguably the most popular forums right now, the M2TW and the RTW/Hosted mod forums, are generally open to new Members. Which rather makes a mockery of the system. I can understand the reasons why the OT forums, and particularly the Backroom, are off limits to new Members, but it seems rather pointless to completely restrict them from the other game forums. Why, for instance, can a new Member reply to threads in the M2TW forum about the forthcoming game, but someone who has come here to discuss a previous game, perhaps having bought the Eras set, is barred from participating in the other forums? What is special about the RTW, MTW and STW general discussion forums that means new Members cannot be allowed to participate there until after going through a relatively lackadaisical selection procedure (every new Member who asks is told that gaining full Membership is usually trivial: a dozen posts in a couple of weeks and you're in)? For those who have come here determined to cause trouble (as opposed to those who are merely passing by), the EH system is therefore hardly much of a deterrent.

Instead of having the forums prima facie unpostable for newer patrons, with exceptions as determined by individual moderators, why not have them open for new Members with exceptions in special cases? We should place the emphasis on where new Member should not post (e.g. the Backroom), rather than where they should be allowed to post.

Make no mistake, the EH system deters not only the transient spammers and malcontents here to cause trouble, but also good quality Members. Several Members I have spoken to, who joined whilst the EH system was temporarily dropped after the release of RTW, commented that they would not have joined under the restrictive posting scheme. Two of these in particular are important members of the modding community, with thousands of high quality posts between them. In any case, the number of potential Members who come purely to cause trouble is the tiniest fraction of the total new registrations. With the current system, the onus is on the new member to demonstrate that they are worthy of acceptance as a new Member of this community. This is completely backward, so far as I'm concerned. We should be more welcoming to new Members, but willing to respond strongly if a new patron demonstrates an incompatibility with the ethos of these forums.

It is also true that many of the less desirable members this board has seen over the last few years have come through the Entrance Hall system in its most restrictive days, when new Members could only post in the Entrance Hall and not much else. In this scheme, it was actually possible (though very labour-intensive) for the Entrance Hall staff to sift through a Member's posts before granting promotion to Senior Patron. There was, unlike now, actually a strong selection procedure in place. But new Members wishing to discuss the games didn't have all that much choice but to join up, such was the predominance of the Org. Things have changed.

Further, the system unquestionably sullies the reputation of the Org amongst the Total War community in general: we are seen as elitist. It may be that some feel that we need to be shielded from this new type of Total War or Warrior player, who may not be such a fan of the strategic elements of the game and prefers the RTW style to that of the previous games. Maybe an influx of such Members would drive off older Members and lead to a general drop in quality of the board. But I doubt it.

It is therefore my opinion that this system is strangling the Org, depriving it of new blood, and must be addressed urgently, especially in light of the impending release of a new game.

Thirdly, in generally well behaved boards such as this, the primary role of staff members is to be community leaders. IOW, staff members should be participating in their forums as patrons first, moderators a distant second. There are certainly some staff members who appear to take this view, organising events and the like, galvanising their forums, but there are others who appear to take little or no interest in the content of their forums except to moderate them. Whether they actually have in interest or not is largely irrelevant to this point: in this case, it is the perception that counts. It is not an ideal situation, IMHO, when the average member only sees a post from a forum staffer when they are stepping in as a moderator. It does not breed a particularly friendly atmosphere.

In addition to these more general issues, the lack of communication from senior staff members is becoming a significant issue, in particular the lack of the "public face" for the Org, i.e. someone who Members, new and old, can contact with issues concerning the site. We currently don't have that. I understand the Org is going through a transitory period, and accommodations must be made for this, but it has been over 2 months now without an active leader, and decisions need to be made.

Coupled with this is a critical lack of transparency about the current decision making structures at the Org. For most of my time here, we have a discernable and stable "chain of command". However, in recent months, with the absence of the Forum Administrator, this has dissolved and now matters such as board downtimes and problems with the forum software are not being publicly addressed (they used to be). Even things as trivial as name changes are going past without acknowledgement of who is actually handling these matters with KukriKhan inactive. This is leading to confusion about who is running the site and which staff members have responsibilities over which areas. This used to be clearly understood by the membership at large. I know for a fact that PMs have been sent to KukriKhan requesting admin action only to seemingly be ignored.

So, who does one speak to about issues concerning hosted mod forums? Why was the board recently down for two days in a week? Is anyone looking in to the postcount, thread starter, or false PM count issues? On current form, I doubt those requesting a Mafia/Forum game forum are likely to get an answer: the forum will either magically appear completely unannounced (like the M2TW mod forum) or it will not.

With the forums themselves not running smoothly (they haven't for months) there is a general concern over the stability of the site, especially from people who come here to do more than just discuss the game and OT issues. The potential loss of access to their posts is a concern that the admins must be seen to take seriously, but confidence in the staff is being eroded by their lack of participation in this forum on matters including the current problems with the forums and Org policy. The latter of which is meant to be the entire point of this forum.

Some of the issues I raise in the second section of this post are undoubtedly going to be contentious, but some, like the need for a "go to" man for Members, are I believe not contentious at all. I strongly urge the staff to select a representative amongst their number to handle these requests as soon as possible.

**Tamur** · 09-04-2006, 05:00

I have to agree with a majority of this post. Though there are always things happening in some of the subforums (subfora?) with very active moderators (econ and the PBM area comes to mind as a prime example), there are many others which do not enjoy the same level of support.

More generally, the totalwar.org site is definitely in need of some major revision, tedious as that may be. Between left side links such as "Pre-order Rome: TW", a mysterious "email" link going to someone named jim, and this page, it is hardly a wonder that the Org is living on reputation rather than reality.

Also, even lowly me has noticed the mysterious "request goes ungranted for two weeks then suddenly something happens with no mention of who did it" effect. Very odd and disconcerting.

As far as what to do... ??? With a site this large, and an administrative structure seemingly as complex as an infighting educational institution, that's a very good question.

There are plenty of people I think who would be willing and skilled enough to help with a major revision of the site, serious brainstorming on the future direction of the Org (something that is *vital* at this stage, I know from experience), and anything else that comes along. Many of us know the Org as an old and dear home, but are willing to fix the house up by knocking out proverbial walls if needed to make it a better place.

But again, talk is talk until someone with the authority to make changes steps into the discussion.

**Mithrandir** · 09-04-2006, 20:20

Let me pick up on some points :

Org seems to be getting smaller compared to other sites
The community has grown explosive, where STW had just a few dozen online players, MTW had a few hundred, RTW probably again has more and MTW 2 will probably just continue on this trend. It's no wonder the Org is getting smaller in comparison; there'll be more and more sites from which people can chose to visit. Besides, does size matter? sorry, just had to say it

no hosted modding forums
I believe we have those.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=74

You make the modding part one of your main points. I have to disagree, in my view the strong point of the Org was never one based on content.It was one based on atmosphere, knowing you'd be welcomed into a fuzzy place.

No up to date front page
The site has it's news updates, consisting mostly of the modding community news, something you seem especially intend on.The skin hasn't changed, true. And it may be nice to see something different, agreed.

Entrance Hall System
Discussed many times, over and over again...
I'm one of the staff you mentioned liking the system as it is. Besides the obvious point you've made about deterring people with ill intentions (and stopping the sudden invasion of spambots), I think the EH has a much mroe important function. It shows new patrons what conduct is expected from the here at the Org. This helps to insure the fuzzy atmosphere as I mentioned above. It shows them that spamming,sniping and other unconstructive behaviour has no place here.

Moderators should be active patrons in their own fora
Why? The patrons should mainly moderate themselves, they have the bulk of the posts. The function of moderators is to guide the discussions taking place. It ofcourse helps if they know what the discussions are about, that's why they are assigned to fora they are intrested in.

No clear adminrole
Ser Clegane has picked up the issues, as you can see in the "trouble with posting" thread in the Entrance Hall. For other issues you can contact any of the staff which will be happy to help.

I think a far more troubling issue is the following question :
Why did I make such a longwinded post ? I'm not used to that...

.

**Ludens** · 09-04-2006, 23:48

I think this is a good initiative. I agree with most of your observations therother, but I'd like to add a few comments.

The EH system is indeed scaring of new patrons, and would possibly benefit from being made simpler. However, I am against dropping it entirely: the last time we did that the general level of maturity on this forum took a dive. Perhaps there is an alternative: throwing open the M2:TW and modding forums but keeping the rest closed. Like Mith said, the EH also allows patrons to adapt to the atmosphere on the Org. Anyway, I doesn't bother me if the Org isn't the biggest, or even the second biggest fansite. As long as it's the best. And one of the reasons the Org stands out is it's atmosphere.

I agree with your comments on hosted mods (it is possibly but very hard to host your beginning mod at the Org) and on the lack of transparency caused by KukriKhan's absence, but perhaps I should keep silent as I already raised these issues before without convincing the staff. However, mods are increasingly important to the community, so making the modders feel more at home seems a good idea.

The frontpage is indeed in need of an overhaul, but AFAIK we currently have no staff member with the skills and/or time to do this.

Staff being mostly invisible is not such an issue, IMO. If they were truly invisible it would be a problem, but all moderators participate to some extent.

**Beirut** · 09-05-2006, 01:01

I think that was a very good post concerning strategic Org. issues and is a credit to Therother for writing it.

Introspection is always a good thing.

**Gregoshi** · 09-05-2006, 05:13

Beautiful post therother. Well thought out and presented.

On the EH system, I have mixed feelings about it. I can see where it would scare off or deter some from joining. I also remember that nose dive in posting maturity that took place when the EH system was eliminated that Ludens mentioned. One thing that is key with the system is that Junior Members should not have to wait too long a time before being given full privileges. I just saw a patron who's been a JM for two months now (40+ posts). That is way too long to wait.

I agree also that communication from the staff is an important ingredient to a healthy forum. It tells the patrons the staff is there, listening and responding to their issues and/or requests. Simple reminders that the staff is there is at least comforting to me.

I think part of what therother is getting at has to do with how the Org is staffed. Staffing is almost 100% geared towards maintaining the forums. Perhaps there should be some staff dedicated solely to maintaining the non-forums parts of the Org. Those with the technical skills necessary to keep all the web pages current and dynamic.

Along with the staff to do things, I agree that someone or some part of the staff should be working the "vision thing". Where is the Org going? What is working and what isn't working with the site? Basically dealing with the kinds of things brought up in therother's post. You need the right kind of people to do this kind of thinking. For example, I know I've tried to do this kind of vision thinking when I was on the staff and I found that I lacked the creativity to be of much use in that area.

But anyway, having a direction and periodically reevaluating it is a good thing.

Good topic for discussion.

**English assassin** · 09-05-2006, 11:12

Interesting topic.

Judging from the few other forums I use, what I value most is being able to get informed answers or comment on issues. (Err, that comment relates mainly to the game forums, but also to, say, the arena. I must admit I mostly post in the OT forums now because RTW was not for me, a situation hopefully to be avoided with M2TW. I came here for comment on the game though.) Although size isn't everything, I can see how, for, say, modding, there is a need for a critical mass.

Although I can't argue with the experience when the EH was suspended, (not that i remember it) the other forums I use don't have such a system and mostly maintain their atmosphere. Possibly, and I hope this won't offend anyone, they are helped by being on topics that probably attract a slightly older audience. Even so its true that there is a fair trickle of posts by new members that are not at all in accordance with the culture of the site (if I say one is a shooting site you can probably imagine the sort of thing), but a combination of the established members expressing their disapproval and quite a lot of thread deleting and insta-banning keeps things in order. Combined with needing approval before you can register to use the site it keeps things more or less in check, although I guess a really determined troll with lot of email addresses could make trouble if he wanted.

Worth considering though

**Martok** · 09-06-2006, 02:49

A lot of good points mentioned in this thread, including a very thorough and thoughtful OP by therother. Most of my thoughts here deal with newcomers to the Org, our current size and future growth, and the image we want to present to the rest of the Total War (and general gaming) community:

I second Mithrandir in asking--with as as little snickering as possible--does size really matter? While I don't deny that I take a certain pride that the Org is--or at least has been--the largest unofficial TotalWar site out there, I don't think bigger is necessarily better. (If it was, then theoretically the .COM's forums would be better than anyone else's, and I think virtually all of us here would disagree with such a statement!) I think the Org is a good example of "quality over quantity".

Of course I realize I'm oversimplifying the whole issue. The Org has continued to grow at a pretty healthy pace in absolute terms, but has its growth shrunk relative to that of other TW sites? Yes, it probably has; but I believe that to be somewhat inevitable. As the number of people playing Total War games has increased, so too has the number of fansites dedicated to them. That fact will not stop the Org from growing any more than it already has been, though.

Rome in particular gave the TW community a large injection of new players--many of whom are, quite frankly, of somewhat "noobish" quality. Thanks in part because of our Entrance Hall system, we tend to either filter out those types of players, or turn them into courteous and productive members. (My views on that are obviously based not on empirical research, however, and more on general impressions). The Entrance Hall system works well for us in this regard. I believe the fact that we screen junior members before allowing them full access to the forums is a big part of why the Org is still a pleasant and interesting place, even after 6+ years of (more or less) continuous operation.

That said, I do believe we should risk a few changes. I visit the Entrance Hall fairly often, and I see a lot of junior members expressing frustration because they can't post their question/problem in the specific forum dedicated to their topic of choice (they can't post their MTW questions in the Main Hall, they can't post their technical problems in the Apothecary, etc.). They must instead post in the EH, and then wait and hope that one of us regular members or moderators checks it and helps them with their question/problem in a reasonable amount of time.

Unfortunately, despite the best efforts of those who frequent the Entrance Hall (and there is a pretty good number of us who stop and check in), a fair few junior members still end up waiting for some while before anyone shows up to help them. I've seen new folks wait for over a day with no response to their query. Granted, such situations are relatively rare, but they still occur often enough that I can't blame newcomers from giving up in frustration and looking for another forum to frequent.

For that reason alone, I believe the Org would benefit from letting junior members have expanded posting priveleges, albeit still limited. Even if they were allowed to post in just the main game areas (Coliseum, Main Hall, Sword Dojo,) and the Apothecary, I think it would go a long way towards encouraging strong & steady membership--not to mention helping our image (although I don't know precisely how important that is to us).

I'm definitely not advocating letting junior members having the run of the forums. (The whole "Miscellaneous" area of the forums should remain off-limits to them, if nothing else!) But I do believe confining Org newbies to the Entrance Hall is probably overly restrictive, and ultimately detrimental to our community here.

**caravel** · 09-06-2006, 13:28

I must say that I agree almost 90% with therother and with Martok in particular. I would also like to point out that it is superb that he is allowed to actually post this critique and have it well received by staff members instead of just being closed as would often happen elsewhere.

With regard to the Entrance Hall system. This is a bit of a double edged sword. Scrap the system altogether and be flooded by the type of patron they see at the .com. As it is, it is quite offputting. I can imagine alot of people clicking the back button once they encounter this. It caters to serious Total War fanatics, who don't mind going through this kind of ranking system that smacks, to the outsider at least, of elitism, but to many people it's going to be too much hassle and they won't bother. Letting new members post replies in only the ontopic areas may be the solution, and so restricting them completely from the offtopic forums where they may, depending on their maturity level, pick up some bad habits.

Again in defense of the EH. The reason I left the .com was due to the state of the boards. A mass of new members influxed mainly due to the announcement of M2TW. The MTW forum over there simply dried up at that point. I think alot of members must have gone over to RTW to prepare themselves for M2TW. Also alot of members simply disappeared (as occured when RTW was released) off the board. These new members seemed to displace the older members. They, to quote Martok, tend to be of the "noobish quality" and most of the threads they are involved in are simply spam threads, threads about why their country isn't in the game, fantasty units, making the game more RTS like etc etc. These sort of threads just don't appeal to the hardcore of TW players. This may have led to the creation of a different type of 'atmoshpere' and may possibly be one of the reasons for the exodus. The atmospere is less friendly, much less polite and there is alot more spam. At the .org the EH filters this sort of patron, by acting as a deterrent. The mods can observe their behaviour and choose to keep them out.

I don't think that size is important, and I think many people have missed therother's point here. I doubt think he is referring to bloated growth, or being the 'biggest board'. Sustainable growth is the issue. If there is a decline in membership it will be difficult to recover. The .org doesn't need to be huge, it just needs a steady stream of decent new members to replace those that, inevitably, leave. Simple as that. If you have a system where new members are all treated as potential spammers that need to be vetted, this deters new membership. It also keeps out the kind of people mentioned in the previous paragraph. So what do you do?

To add one last point. I also think that post counts are absolute rubbish. I don't see why they need to be recorded or why making a post needs to be a competition for some people (I know some of you joke about this by the way "+1", "+0" etc, I'm not including you!). Many forum admins are afraid that if they ditch post counts that it hits posting levels and membership. If at the .org, where quality over quantity is the motto, we're not interested in such things, then why do we need this? The .org has awards which appear on the members postrow below their avatar which detail their contributions with regard to knowledge etc. These reflect their abilities. This is a good idea, post counting is not. I really think that the .org should break the mould and scrap post counting altogether. This will also go a long way towards deterring the spammers and trolls that are interested in such things.

**AntiochusIII** · 09-08-2006, 01:50

I too noticed something of a slowdown from the influx of new members that came around the same time as I did, the RTW flood crowd. Whether this is a good or a bad thing is debatable: I am in favor of having the EH system in place (it was not so bad for me, if memory serves), but major revisions of this particular policy ought to be taken. I can only give some ideas, being pretty incapable of, and lacking experience in, implementing such policies myself.

1) Currently, the members who recently joined the org would find themselves restricted entirely to the Entrance Hall, which, quite frankly, isn't all that interesting to begin with. While at the time I joined it wasn't at all restricting, it was mainly due to the sheer level of activity during the height of Rome's popularity. I believe the threat of spammers and various idiocies is currently much less than those times in that MTW2, despite the increasing attention, is simply not out yet for the flood of new members to come.

Therefore, it makes sense to me that, in order to encourage new members to stay, and in light of what I perceive to be a less than troublesome times, I suggest that the major game forums -- the Colosseum, the Main Hall, Sword Dojo, as well as the Apothecary (the last of which should be made more prominent, via the stickies in the Entrance Hall) -- be open to new members immediately in reply-only mode, if that is not too hard to code in. Limiting access to only these, the Entrance Hall, the Modding Forums, and the Medieval Totalwar 2 categories would, I hope, limit the possible workload of the staff to monitor all forums for trolls and advertisers, and at the same time achieve the goal in increasing the freedom of the new members.

Personally I'd hope to increase this manner of coverage for junior members to all the game forums, but I suspect that would leave too much of the org open to spamming, trolling, and advertising, and would unreasonably increase the workload of the staff.

2) There currently is also another problem with the junior member system: the junior members are promoted too slowly. In the same theme as the number one, these hazy days with low activity in the Entrance Hall aren't exactly the same Entrance Hall that I joined in, buzzing with all the hype of a fresh new game. At the time anyone could tolerate days, or even weeks, of remaining junior members, since the range of interest and activity was adequately covered. I believe some sort of a time limit should be established. Say, a month, and a junior member with more than 5 posts (or whatever is appropriate) will be promoted automatically. This, of course, is just an example thrown out there, and has certainly not been considered as an optimal time, or an optimal post count -- the latter, though, should generally be kept relatively low, to prevent spamming.

3) I also agree that the Frontpage needs major revision. Radical revision. Right now it is simply too cumbersome and unfortunately ineffective that most regular members enter the forums directly, a habit that I also pick up, and, for me at least, is unique to the org.

A key issue would be the accessibility of the content. The atmosphere belongs to the forums, and while we pride at it, that is not something that attracts new members. Content, on the other hand, should be easily accessible to all.

A lesser issue would be the aesthetics of it. Though that is a particularly subjective...subject.

I also would propose that the specific mods' forums should be directly accessible from the Frontpage, at least. If there's something that attracts new, often quality members, and that only the community can provide, it's the mods.

Surely there is a particularly skilled member out there that will gladly help when asked for volunteers?

**econ21** · 09-08-2006, 08:59

Interesting ideas in this thread - keep 'em coming. On the EH policy, a large majority of the staff want to retain it in some form. However, there is room for some rationalisation and liberalisation. We first need to update the table of permissions in the Guild FAQ as there have been some incremental changes as some moderators have liberalised access to "their" forums over time. Currently, it seems that juniors can reply in the M2TW, Main Hall and Sword Dojo (they can also start new threads in the latter); Nelson is willing to extend that to the Colosseum on a trial basis. When we get the table updated, we can see if there are any other changes that are natural. I like the idea of guiding junior members to the other forums that they can access. I'll post again in this thread when we make more progress.

**Tamur** · 09-08-2006, 15:57

Originally Posted by AntiochusIII

Surely there is a particularly skilled member out there that will gladly help when asked for volunteers?

Indeed, I'm sure we'd get at a handful of highly qualified members who have dealt with php, data architecture, coordinating UI changes, and so on. It's just a matter of asking, verifying that volunteers do indeed have the skills and experience necessary, and then being brave to give out the permissions and server info.

**Gregoshi** · 09-08-2006, 16:32

No doubt there are quite a few talented people here at the Org, but those with the time and commitment needed for such positions might be a lot fewer. Think of those unplanned events like the time or two the board database got hosed. I'm sure Tosa had other things planned for the time he had to spend recovering the database so the Org would be back in operation. Yet he put aside other things to do what was necessary to get the forums back. That is the kind of commitment and dedication is just as important as having the know-how to do the job.

**Tamur** · 09-08-2006, 17:27

Ah. Good point Gregoshi. I guess what I was thinking of was a site revision as a one-time event that fits around people's schedules, rather than a long-term and schedule-altering commitment. That will certainly cut a lot of people out of the picture.

**Epistolary Richard** · 09-08-2006, 18:05

Remember, that Antiochus was referring only to the front page in his post. I'm not at all knowledgeable on this score, but I wouldn't believe that developing a new skin for the front page would require server permissions etc. nor developing a new skin for the forums. I would imagine that, once it was designed, current administration could actually implement it.

**Gregoshi** · 09-08-2006, 18:11

True ER. I was thinking more of a long-term role to keep everything current.

**Martok** · 09-08-2006, 21:11

Originally Posted by AntiochusIII

1) Currently, the members who recently joined the org would find themselves restricted entirely to the Entrance Hall, which, quite frankly, isn't all that interesting to begin with. While at the time I joined it wasn't at all restricting, it was mainly due to the sheer level of activity during the height of Rome's popularity. I believe the threat of spammers and various idiocies is currently much less than those times in that MTW2, despite the increasing attention, is simply not out yet for the flood of new members to come.

2) There currently is also another problem with the junior member system: the junior members are promoted too slowly. In the same theme as the number one, these hazy days with low activity in the Entrance Hall aren't exactly the same Entrance Hall that I joined in, buzzing with all the hype of a fresh new game. At the time anyone could tolerate days, or even weeks, of remaining junior members, since the range of interest and activity was adequately covered. I believe some sort of a time limit should be established. Say, a month, and a junior member with more than 5 posts (or whatever is appropriate) will be promoted automatically. This, of course, is just an example thrown out there, and has certainly not been considered as an optimal time, or an optimal post count -- the latter, though, should generally be kept relatively low, to prevent spamming.

Some excellent points, AntiochusIII--I wish I'd made them.

I think you're right in that our Entrance Hall policy isn't as big a problem when a game/expansion pack has just been released, as we get flooded by new players. With all the new people around, there's lots of discussion going on in the EH, and it's therefore not as big a deal to junior members that their forum access is limited in the beginning.

During slower times, however--which I would probably define as those periods starting 4-6 months after an expansion pack is released, and ending around the time the next new title comes out--activity in the Entrance Hall drops to a (relatively) low level, and junior members then get frustrated that they can't participate in the other fora.

My point is that at least during periods of lesser activity, I just feel we ought to try especially hard to make sure junior members are promoted to full membership in a timely manner. I of course encourage trying to stay on top of promotions during the busy periods as well; but that's obviously: a.) harder to do, and b.) less of of an issue since there's a lot more people in the EH during those times anyway.

**therother** · 09-09-2006, 23:10

Originally Posted by econ21

We first need to update the table of permissions in the Guild FAQ as there have been some incremental changes as some moderators have liberalised access to "their" forums over time. Currently, it seems that juniors can reply in the M2TW, Main Hall and Sword Dojo (they can also start new threads in the latter); Nelson is willing to extend that to the Colosseum on a trial basis.

Excellent news. I will dust off my JM account and update the permissions asap.

**King Henry V** · 09-13-2006, 17:46

Very good post, therother, and I do agree.
I have spent the past nine months or so mainly at TWC. While I have recently grown sick of things there and have decided to return here, I have the feeling that this place is like a village compared to the town (TWC). Whereas a village is friendlier and such, its smallness means that debate is sometimes not as vibrant. It still believe that the quality of debate in the Backroom is extremely high (whereas I would often post there, the political forums at TWC did not attract me at all), however there is not a lot of it. The Monastery lacks a certain something: rarely does one get threads which are longer than two pages. Somebody asks a question, after a while the question is answered and that seems to be the end of it. While this is important as well, actual debate is essential. The .org has many fine aspects to it that one would find no where else, notably the PBMs, the Ludus Magnus, the Interactive Histories and the games (Arcade and Mafia&co forum). However, this site also lacks proffieciency in some places: The Gahzette didn't even have its own forum. The fact that the site's only official publication had to be posted in a place where a) threads can get lost to the backpages very easily and b) which our more dedicated posters (who have lost interest lately in TW) rarely visit. I do know that the .org is somewhat stingy when it comes to forums (I remember someone saying that "we don't give out forums like sweets"), but that is simply ridiculous! The mod section seems to have declined recently. For instance, some of the biggest RTW mods are not even present in the hosted mods section. I know the .org generally prefers EB to RTR, but nonetheless it is one of the biggest mods out there. Where is the forum for NTW2, Chivalry TW, Arthurian TW, just to name a few? Mods form part of the largest section of fan sites, so it is surprising to see this area fairly neglected.

**AntiochusIII** · 09-13-2006, 22:34

Originally Posted by King Henry V

I know the .org generally prefers EB to RTR, but nonetheless it is one of the biggest mods out there. Where is the forum for NTW2, Chivalry TW, Arthurian TW, just to name a few? Mods form part of the largest section of fan sites, so it is surprising to see this area fairly neglected.

Isn't that the choice of the modders, though? The only thing the org can really do is revise some of the forums arrangements and other policies to make it more attractive to modders. One could argue that the current forum line-up, with mods' forums listed one after another in close fashion, might make the "click" rate into these mods much less than they could be.

That is also essentially the matter of revision, though, of which a volunteer would be needed.

Originally Posted by Gregoshi

No doubt there are quite a few talented people here at the Org, but those with the time and commitment needed for such positions might be a lot fewer. Think of those unplanned events like the time or two the board database got hosed. I'm sure Tosa had other things planned for the time he had to spend recovering the database so the Org would be back in operation. Yet he put aside other things to do what was necessary to get the forums back. That is the kind of commitment and dedication is just as important as having the know-how to do the job.

Ah, I see. I was thinking differently in the form of a one-time job for anyone who wants to do it; but the position of a permanent "coder" would greatly limit the choice of possible candidates, and the possible amount of volunteers.

**Epistolary Richard** · 09-14-2006, 01:37

Interesting post, Henry V, thank you and thanks to therother and all those who have participated in this thread. As any other organisation, I think it's important to take time on occasion to take stock, to evaluate what's in the past and look forward to the future.

My own perspective on the Org is pretty limited, focused on the modding forums for RTW (and now M2TW), but I will add my own tuppenny's worth.

Originally Posted by King Henry V

The .org has many fine aspects to it that one would find no where else, notably the PBMs, the Ludus Magnus, the Interactive Histories and the games (Arcade and Mafia&co forum). However, this site also lacks proffieciency in some places

I agree, the development of forums will always be driven by the interests of the most active and committed members. This leads to a certain degree of emphasis or specialisation as like-minded individuals are drawn to the expansion of certain areas. That's not to say that more strings could not be added to the Org's bow, however, and indeed members will to put the time and energy in can easily drive the development of different areas the forum.

Originally Posted by King Henry V

The Gahzette didn't even have its own forum. The fact that the site's only official publication had to be posted in a place where a) threads can get lost to the backpages very easily and b) which our more dedicated posters (who have lost interest lately in TW) rarely visit.

Ah, now here I disagree. I don't think much would have been gained by spinning off the Gahzette into its own subforum - which would have had perhaps a handful of threads in it and no regular visitors (therefore relying on people noticing that a new thread had gone up in a forum they didn't usually visit). My own RTW Modding News Roundup has been going for nearly a year now and is up to its tenth installment and no one would consider that that would need a sub-forum of its own. Having a sticky and a front page announcement (both things I would imagine that could easily be done for the Gahzette if asked for) has been enough to drive more than 2,000 views to each one - in what is relatively a niche area.

Originally Posted by King Henry V

For instance, some of the biggest RTW mods are not even present in the hosted mods section. I know the .org generally prefers EB to RTR, but nonetheless it is one of the biggest mods out there.

Actually, based on what I see I wouldn't feel confident that the Org as a whole shows a preference for one mod or another. The Mod Discussion forum has far more mentions of RTR over EB. The current big PBM is based on an RTR modification. There is the EB board, of course, but that is their team's principal base of communication with their fans - in the similar way to RTR, except that that team - after problems with their original 'home' - decided to focus on establishing their own site.

But as you say, as probably the most widely known RTW modification, RTR does not have an official presence on the Org (unlike their own community submod RTR Platinum which does). That, as I understand it, is a choice or omission by the team itself.

Prior to their sixth version, their team rep most active on the Org was Simetrical - after his departure from the team we saw a couple of other official spokespeople but they didn't last for very long. RTR didn't even start a thread in the Forge until after v6 was out and they stopped posting updates in that after a couple of months.

I'd regret it if a team thought there was absolutely no benefit in promoting their work to the Org's membership (though it's sometimes a thankless task). But if a team either doesn't want to or thinks it can do without it then that's their choice. And, as I've indicated above, Org members still get involved with RTR despite the lack of official team presence.

Originally Posted by King Henry V

Where is the forum for NTW2, Chivalry TW, Arthurian TW, just to name a few? Mods form part of the largest section of fan sites, so it is surprising to see this area fairly neglected.

Well, I can only speak for things that have arisen during my time as Mod Mod, but to my knowledge (and I can be corrected on this) neither NTW2 nor Arthurian TW have ever requested a forum of their own. Chivalry did request their own forum to help with building a multiplayer community and they have one there. Both the Forge and Mod Discussion both have an impressive amount of content and previews from all three mods available.

Having a forum of your own is not just a privilege for a mod team it's also a commitment, a commitment to maintain and build a forum which they are primarily responsible for, as neither administrators nor members want stale boards. That can be difficult where the team is based on a different site - so again, if they choose that they don't want that responsibility then that's fine.

The Org has been in the Hosted Mod business for quite some time, I don't know for sure but it looks like the first ones were created mid-2003 or so. Historically, I believe, a Hosted Mod forum would be primarily for the team to develop the mod - to give them space to work - and so a team wouldn't need more than one forum across different sites. Since then, things have changed - and now it's more typical for larger teams to have forums solely for promotional purposes across several different sites. And just as the community changes so will the Org - I imagine the M2TW Hosted Mods will be that little bit different and take these changes into account - in the same way as RTW Hosted Mods was a little bit different from MTW Hosted Mods.

**Ludens** · 09-15-2006, 11:24

Originally Posted by King Henry V

Mods form part of the largest section of fan sites, so it is surprising to see this area fairly neglected.

I agree to some extent, but this is not caused by unwillingness of the staff. It seems a matter of course amongst the mod community that a forum request is made at the TWC and not the Org. I don't know how this could be changed.

**caravel** · 09-15-2006, 13:40

Speaking of modding. If someone created a complete guide to making a fully functional Sahara province for MTW/VI 2.01 where would this individual post such a guide? I have tried and don't have the permissions. The only forum I can post it in is the modding questions, which isn't the right forum. To be honest this is rather offputting. Why so restrictive? If such a guide was total garbage and didn't work then surely it could be deleted or moved at a later date?

**R'as al Ghul** · 09-15-2006, 14:25

Originally Posted by Caravel

Speaking of modding. If someone created a complete guide to making a fully functional Sahara province for MTW/VI 2.01 where would this individual post such a guide?

You'd need to PM one of the Moderators of that forum. (Duke John I believe)
I don't remember exactly why this restriction was put in place but Iirc the idea
was to keep the guides and the questions seperate and limit the overall post count in that forum.
BTW, Sahara unlocking? Wasn't that posted before? Have you done a search?

R'as

**caravel** · 09-15-2006, 14:38

Originally Posted by R'as al Ghul

You'd need to PM one of the Moderators of that forum. (Duke John I believe)
I don't remember exactly why this restriction was put in place but Iirc the idea
was to keep the guides and the questions seperate and limit the overall post count in that forum.
BTW, Sahara unlocking? Wasn't that posted before? Have you done a search?

R'as

It was but it wasn't a complete guide. The unlocking the Sahara sticky thread is a bit scrappy and incomplete. I have pm'd a moderator four days ago and no answer as yet.

**Epistolary Richard** · 09-16-2006, 13:50

I should be able to do this, post the thread in the MTW modding forums where you can post and PM me a link to it and I'll move it.

Duke John, BTW, retired a while back. He's currently a member of the Lordz and working on the next part of NTW2 I believe.

**Caius** · 10-02-2006, 19:46

WE have problems with the juniors members.I was watching the M2TW forum and I founded a junior member.This forum member is called Sun of Cheronesos and I said to myself:What?A junior member with 125 posts?what happens with members who are registered in 2004 but stills are juniors members?.

And I 'm calling to the admins and the moderators, members and juniors member to discuss:What are the requeriments to promote a junor member to member?

I understand the reason, but the org must have rules.Rules of junior members, in those rules we must define if the juniors members are promoted to members if they post X posts or if they wait X weeks.

The Org Gazzete:In a thread much people wants to be a reporter.But this Gazzete can be taked serious.Make a new forum for it.Things such as "The official release of M2TW" or "R2:TW" can be added in this Gazzete, with the purpose of inform the members about new releases of mods, the release of M2:TW or interwiews with the admins.

We are a community, and we togheter can make this place better.I'n not saying this is a bad community, only i want to say things who makes this org better than before.

Maybe you can disagree with me.

Caius

**Csargo** · 10-02-2006, 19:57