Israel is protecting war (ww2)criminal accused of genocide

[KrooK]

Sounds strange.
In some previous discussions I mentioned Salomon Morel.
Here I found official documents about him - its from IPN - Commision to Detect Crimes Against Polish Nation. IPN is special organ to detect war crimes and communist crimes.


That guy was accused of genocide but Israel don't want neither extradite nor
judge him. Into that article there is official Israel document. What is interesting, that document doesn't tell the truth. In my opinion Israel is protecting that criminal only because he is Jew. And this is nothing than
RACISM.



http://www.ipn.gov.pl/eng/eng_news_high_morel.html

Read and tell....

[Avicenna]

If what you say was true, it would be very interesting if Heydrich wasn't dead and was now in Israel.

FYI, Heydrich is the infamous Nazi Jew who co-ordinated concentration camps.

[Watchman]

Heydrich... I think I recall the name. Got killed by a few British-trained Austrian Resistance types, right ?

About the only top-ranking guy in the whole Nazi regime who fit the physical image of an Aryan superman too...


Anyway, going by the link this Morel guy sounds like one jolly fellow. It's kind of telling when a '45 Communist adminstration fires a prison camp chief for what roughly amounts to "malign neglect" and "excessive brutality"...

Israel harboring the guy for no other reason than being a Jew sounds also plausible enough. Or at least so far as I know not a few of those Stern Gang Zionist ultras who during WW2 had talks with the Nazis over the prospect of allying against their mutual foe the Brits later made a career in Israeli politics without any hitches, and if that flew at the time I don't see it as particularly impossible that they wouldn't care too much about some Poles and Germans fifty years ago.

[KrooK]

If oyu mean Reinchard Heydrich - he was killed but not by Austrian but Czech Resistance.

[Adrian II]

And this is nothing than RACISM.

Hold your fire now. The Israeli term of limitation is a law of the land, it can not be changed at Polish request. And I think Israel will not deliver a single Jew into the hands of a Polish government under the present circumstances. Polish cabinet ministers openly declare themselves antisemites and speak of 'Jewish Communist plots' intended to turn Poland into a 'Jewish reservation'. For that reason the Polish authorities can not be trusted, for the umpteenth time in modern history, to give a Jew a fair trial.

Polish antisemites really have themselves to blame.

[Watchman]

If oyu mean Reinchard Heydrich - he was killed but not by Austrian but Czech Resistance.

I stand corrected.

Polish cabinet ministers openly declare themselves antisemites and speak of 'Jewish Communist plots' intended to turn Poland into a 'Jewish reservation'. --- Polish antisemites really have themselves to blame.

What, they've jumped on that bandwagon too now ? As if being asinine to both the Germans and Russians at once wasn't enough.

[KrooK]

Adrian II - he doesn't have to be extradited to Poland. I'm sure Israel has courts too. And notice that Israel don't tell that polish courts are bad. They are telling that he might commited crimes, maybe many crimes , but he is Jew and Jews should be allowed to commit crimes after ww2.

And one more -sorry but you are in mistake. Into absolute mistake.
If you are talking about powerful antisemitism in Poland, you are not telling the truth. About 2 , or 3 days European Jews Congresss (EJC) finished report about antisemitism into Europe. And Imagine - Poland became country with one of the lowest anti- semitism levels. Polish antisemitism became called verbal antisemitism. There were only a few political attacks on Jews. Actually if someone attack Jew here, police is preparing special investigation group.
Polish Jews confirmed that situation. Picture of polish politics full of antisemitism is just picture made by western press. I wonder if that western press it writing about antisemitism into their countries. Actually antisemitism into Russia, Germany and France is on much higher level than in Poland. But simple no one tells about it.
According to Ilan Moss, author of that report - "Here (into Poland) Jews feels safe. On the west there is completely different. There we have alliance of nazists, muslim imigrants and extreme left and we notice more number of aggresive behavior against Jews."
According to chairman of Central Jews Council situation into Germany is getting dangerously closer to this from 1933.

So antisemitism is not explanation. Israel knows that reports.
Salomon Morel is simply criminal and Israel protect him. He is accused of genocide which is crime into almost every country in the world. So if he is accused of genocide, he should be judged - no matter where - Poland or Israel.

[KrooK]

btw as i'm pole so i'm not trusted accordin to you - my sources
http://serwisy.gazeta.pl/kraj/1,34397,3746797.html

[Watchman]

What the man seems to be guilty of does not in any way fulfill the definition of "genocide", far as I can tell. That one has fairly strict definitions by what I know of it.

Plus his foul deeds would have happened after the war unless I've got my dates entirely messed up, so he's not exactly a war criminal either.

[cegorach]

Hold your fire now. The Israeli term of limitation is a law of the land, it can not be changed at Polish request. And I think Israel will not deliver a single Jew into the hands of a Polish government under the present circumstances. Polish cabinet ministers openly declare themselves antisemites and speak of 'Jewish Communist plots' intended to turn Poland into a 'Jewish reservation'. For that reason the Polish authorities can not be trusted, for the umpteenth time in modern history, to give a Jew a fair trial.

Polish antisemites really have themselves to blame.

WHAT ! Shame on you, I hope, no I DEMAND your apology !

That is utter nonsence with no reason behind it except the utter ignorance and outdated and not true stereotypes.

Someone who adds so much in historical resource thread should be more careful.

IT OPENLY offended not only me, but many other Poles who care about the entire Polish-Jewish relationship.

Would you feel good if I started talking rubbish about all Dutch and especially about you ?

- there are not enough furious pics to express my disgust


I REPORT your post right now !

[Adrian II]

WHAT ! Shame on you, I hope, no I DEMAND your apology !

That is utter nonsence with no reason behind it except the utter ignorance and outdated and not true stereotypes.

Someone who adds so much in historical resource thread should be more careful.

IT OPENLY offended not only me, but many other Poles who care about the entire Polish-Jewish relationship.

Would you feel good if I started talking rubbish about all Dutch and especially about you ?

- there are not enough furious pics to express my disgust


I REPORT your post right now !

Shall we stay on topic and refrain from personal attacks? After all, what I wrote is nothing new or shocking.

Historically speaking there have been many waves of antisemitism in modern Poland. Some were downright murderous, as when in 1941 the Polish inhabitants of the town of Jedwabne killed and burned the 1600 Jewish inhabitants of their town. The same thing happened in a host of other Polish towns that year. Need I point out other instances of Polish collaboration with the Holocaust or during the Warsaw ghetto uprising? This is all well-established, I think.

After the war, large sections of Poles from all walks of life persecuted the Holocaust survivors. There have even been post-war Polish pogroms, either encouraged or glossed over and ignored by both the Catholic Church and the Communists. In fact if there was one issue in which the Church and the Communist governments of the post-war period could agree, it was antisemitism. And even today, Polish government ministers indulge in the sort of antisemitic rhetoric I quoted above.

It doesn't help anyone to deny that history and take offense at facts. And it certainly does not help Polish-Israeli relations to the point where Tel Aviv will hand over an Israeli citizen for prosecution in Poland in a highly politicised case like Mr Morel's.

[Stig]

Guys keep it down, we had some fights about this before. Tarrak (Kraxis) isn't on lately not here nor at the Pond or the AO forums (because he has no internet atm), so he can't moderate this, but if this turns into a fight between our nationalistic Polish friends and the rest of the world I can easely send him a mail to check in again because some people have difficulties with debating, as a forum is all about debating

[Adrian II]

Rest assured, I don't need any help from 'the rest of the world' and I have said all that might be said from a Monastic (i.e. historical) perspective. This thread probably belongs in the Backroom which is closed at the moment.

In the interest of forum atmosphere I propose that we close this thread on our own initiative. I will desist now and let our Polish friends have the last word.

[KrooK]

This post shouldn't be moved to back room - this is historical truth.
I showed you situation, used both polish and israeli sources and you answered by attacking my country.

Truth is that Israel cover war criminal. I don't know why, maybe they think that Jew is someone better than Germans and Poles. But this is nothing more than RACISM.

Difference between Poland and Israel is that we are trying to prosecute war criminals. Israel is trying to protect them (look Bernadotte asassination).

[Ser Clegane]

The topic of this thread clearly is a current political issue and should have no place in the Monastery.

The fact that the Backroom is closed for a couple of days should not lead to other parts of the board being (ab)used for discussions about current politics.

[cegorach]

[QUOTE=Adrian II]

Shall we stay on topic and refrain from personal attacks? After all, what I wrote is nothing new or shocking.

Of course YOU DID

Historically speaking there have been many waves of antisemitism in modern Poland. Some were downright murderous, as when in 1941 the Polish inhabitants of the town of Jedwabne killed and burned the 1600 Jewish inhabitants of their town. The same thing happened in a host of other Polish towns that year. Need I point out other instances of Polish collaboration with the Holocaust or during the Warsaw ghetto uprising? This is all well-established, I think.

The problem is that Podlasia region is the ONLY ONE which experienced something like this. It is a LOCAL phenomenon - in NO other region NOTHING similar happened. There were FEW cases of such murders and they are investigated since Poland is free again.

Of course DO that - the cases of Polish collaboration are the MARGIN - there was NONE open collaboration, that is the main difference.
There was NONE organisation helping the Nazis to eliminate Jews only some criminal collaborators who were selling not only Jews, but resistence members and other people.
Poland was the only country which had Jewish party members in its government, Jewish branch of the resistence, special organisation to save tje Jews ( Zegota) - the INTEGRAL part of the resistence.
Not to mention such things like the Jewish units in the '44 uprising or the liberation of Gesiowka death camp by the resistence.


Over 100 000 Jews were saved by Polish citizens, despite the DEATH penalty given for ANY form of help as I am sure you are aware.

Aslo don't you see that the Jewish uprising was also Polish ? The Star of David was placed close to the Polish banner by the resistence fighters. They had support (limited - their mission was doomed and lack of resources was strangling the Polish resistence as well) of the Polish resistence.

Finally - don't you see that Poland was TERRORISED - Poles were exterminated too. People were taken in open human hunts on the streets. It was not France, Norway, Belgium, Denmark or Holland where collaboration was organised and supported, where Jews were transported (France) by state companies. No it was not.

Well established doesn't mean it is true ! For more than 45 years Poles couldn't defend themselves for the accusations made partly by ignorant, partly by extremists, partly by mentally scared who blamed those who were so close, but were also under terrible pressure.

I ahve seen other 'well-established' 'truths' - Poles are a robble, uprising of '44 was criminal adventure, Germans killed Poles in Katyn, Poland attackedn in 1920, Northern Korea was defending not attacking and many others - the well established MYTH of Polish collaboration exists, but how truth it is is a different question !

After the war, large sections of Poles from all walks of life persecuted the Holocaust survivors. There have even been post-war Polish pogroms, either encouraged or glossed over and ignored by both the Catholic Church and the Communists. In fact if there was one issue in which the Church and the Communist governments of the post-war period could agree, it was antisemitism.

Ohh Mr. Gross's works. They are hardly the reliable source - he is a journalist not a historian.

The case of the after-war pogroms is clearly a shame, but ( FEW) these were compensated by the fact of lack of any during the war.
Besides the fact that some Jews were seen in Soviet NKVD unfortuanatelly revievied some anti-semitic sentiments. It is a shame, but hardly a reason to poison the ORG with those anti-Polish accusations.

The last sentence is simply disgusting, Do you mean that John Paul II was anti-semitic ? Or cardinal Wyszynski ? Please enlighten me.

And even today, Polish government ministers indulge in the sort of antisemitic rhetoric I quoted above

.

That is a plain, ordinary LIE - NONE Polish minister used any form of anti-semitic rhetoric. In fact Poland is the CLOSEST Israel's ally in the EU.

It doesn't help anyone to deny that history and take offense at facts. And it certainly does not help Polish-Israeli relations to the point where Tel Aviv will hand over an Israeli citizen for prosecution in Poland in a highly politicised case like Mr Morel's.

What facts ? You are seriously biased.

I have spent years combating anti-semitism so I am all aware of its existence, but I am also aware of the anti-Polish stereotypes linked to this.

You have suggested:

1. That the Polish government is anti-semitic - Which is a LIE

2. That Polish courts are anti-semitc - Which is a LIE

3. That Poland supports anti-semitism - Which is a LIE

So I am asking WHY we are in the EU ?



@Stig

Guys keep it down, we had some fights about this before. Tarrak (Kraxis) isn't on lately not here nor at the Pond or the AO forums (because he has no internet atm), so he can't moderate this, but if this turns into a fight between our nationalistic Polish friends and the rest of the world I can easely send him a mail to check in again because some people have difficulties with debating, as a forum is all about debating

Some, I agree. Throwing accusations with NONE basis in facts is hardly debating. It is an INSULT.

And insults have to be dealt with, sometimes with pure facts, sometimes with a pounch to the face and if someone has been awarded as a historian he should be careful in extreme when using doubtful sources or soon we will see Holocaust deniers offending Jews in this forum too.

[KrooK]

Hmm after previous post I can only agree with cegorach.

I have a bit different point of view but I base on same facts.
I have lawyer's point of view and I don't like situation when criminal can't be punished not because of lack of procedings but because someone is protecting him.

I showed my sources. Please show me Mr. Gross sources.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

[QUOTE=cegorach]

Of course YOU DID



The problem is that Podlasia region is the ONLY ONE which experienced something like this. It is a LOCAL phenomenon - in NO other region NOTHING similar happened. There were FEW cases of such murders and they are investigated since Poland is free again.

Of course DO that - the cases of Polish collaboration are the MARGIN - there was NONE open collaboration, that is the main difference.
There was NONE organisation helping the Nazis to eliminate Jews only some criminal collaborators who were selling not only Jews, but resistence members and other people.
Poland was the only country which had Jewish party members in its government, Jewish branch of the resistence, special organisation to save tje Jews ( Zegota) - the INTEGRAL part of the resistence.
Not to mention such things like the Jewish units in the '44 uprising or the liberation of Gesiowka death camp by the resistence.


Over 100 000 Jews were saved by Polish citizens, despite the DEATH penalty given for ANY form of help as I am sure you are aware.

Aslo don't you see that the Jewish uprising was also Polish ? The Star of David was placed close to the Polish banner by the resistence fighters. They had support (limited - their mission was doomed and lack of resources was strangling the Polish resistence as well) of the Polish resistence.

Finally - don't you see that Poland was TERRORISED - Poles were exterminated too. People were taken in open human hunts on the streets. It was not France, Norway, Belgium, Denmark or Holland where collaboration was organised and supported, where Jews were transported (France) by state companies. No it was not.

Well established doesn't mean it is true ! For more than 45 years Poles couldn't defend themselves for the accusations made partly by ignorant, partly by extremists, partly by mentally scared who blamed those who were so close, but were also under terrible pressure.

I ahve seen other 'well-established' 'truths' - Poles are a robble, uprising of '44 was criminal adventure, Germans killed Poles in Katyn, Poland attackedn in 1920, Northern Korea was defending not attacking and many others - the well established MYTH of Polish collaboration exists, but how truth it is is a different question !



Ohh Mr. Gross's works. They are hardly the reliable source - he is a journalist not a historian.

The case of the after-war pogroms is clearly a shame, but ( FEW) these were compensated by the fact of lack of any during the war.
Besides the fact that some Jews were seen in Soviet NKVD unfortuanatelly revievied some anti-semitic sentiments. It is a shame, but hardly a reason to poison the ORG with those anti-Polish accusations.

The last sentence is simply disgusting, Do you mean that John Paul II was anti-semitic ? Or cardinal Wyszynski ? Please enlighten me.


.

That is a plain, ordinary LIE - NONE Polish minister used any form of anti-semitic rhetoric. In fact Poland is the CLOSEST Israel's ally in the EU.





What facts ? You are seriously biased.

I have spent years combating anti-semitism so I am all aware of its existence, but I am also aware of the anti-Polish stereotypes linked to this.

You have suggested:

1. That the Polish government is anti-semitic - Which is a LIE

2. That Polish courts are anti-semitc - Which is a LIE

3. That Poland supports anti-semitism - Which is a LIE

So I am asking WHY we are in the EU ?



@Stig




Some, I agree. Throwing accusations with NONE basis in facts is hardly debating. It is an INSULT.

And insults have to be dealt with, sometimes with pure facts, sometimes with a pounch to the face and if someone has been awarded as a historian he should be careful in extreme when using doubtful sources or soon we will see Holocaust deniers offending Jews in this forum too.

you got my full support m8. I argee with every single thing you said, incuding your answer to the Insult posts. Very well said.

[Adrian II]

Ohh Mr. Gross's works. They are hardly the reliable source - he is a journalist not a historian.

Jan T. Gross is a respected Polish-born historian, formerly with the University of New York and presently with Princeton University.

In 2001 Professor Gross published the widely acclaimed book Neighbors: The Destruction of the Jewish Community in Jedwabne, Poland. The book describes the slaughter of the Jewabne Jews in 1941 by their fellow Poles as the Nazis watched approvingly.

The book was hotly disputed at first. A Polish goverment commission, the Polish Institute of National Memory, was set up with explicit instruction to investigate the case. ON July 9th , 2002, the Institute issued its final verdict which corroborated the book. In a speech on the subject onj July 17, 2002, at Georgetown University, Polish President Alexander Kwasniewski emphasised both Professor Gross' valuable contribution to Polish history and the need for Poland to come to terms with such facts:

Together with regaining freedom we started a difficult process of clearing our conscience and learning full, sometimes bitter, truth. A strong testimony of this was a discussion about a crime of Jedwabne, that shattered our conscience, but that also helped us realize that we can begin to build the future only if we base ourselves on complete historic truth. During the ceremonies commemorating the victims of the murder in Jedwabne I asked for forgiveness on behalf of those who understand well one cannot be proud with Polish history if one does not express regret for the evil Poles did to the others. I am saying it after the completion of the investigation conducted by appropriate judicial authorities in Poland. Despite a long time that has past since that moment, few witnesses and little evidence, the findings unequivocally state that the people from Jedwabne were murdered by their Polish neighbors.

Recently Professor Gross published another book: Fear: Anti-Semitism in Poland after Auschwitz: An Essay in Historical Interpretation (2006). It deals with the large-scale post-war persecution of Jews in Poland, notably in the form of pogroms, incuding the infamous one at Kielze (one year after the war) which was already on record as having been the bloodiest pogrom of the whole century in all of Europe. It details how Poles from all walks of life persecuted the Holocaust survivors, and how Church leaders and the Communist leadership refused to stop the pogroms, massacres and plundering of Jews. Gross argues that Anti-Semitism became a common currency between the Communists and a Polish society which had broadly participated in the Nazi campaign against the Jews, and for whom the Holocaust survivors were a standing reproach.

After the post-war pogroms and persecution, about 100.00 Jews were left in Poland. Many of them emigrated in the wake of yet more antisemitic campaigns in 1956 and 1968. Even in the 1980s, the leaders of Solidarity were portrayed as a 'non-Polish' element, i.e. a Jewish clique. Since 1991, leaders like Kwasniewski and Lech Walesa have spoken out against antisemitism. Its prevalence and acceptability in Polish politics have decreased, but it is still a considerable political force that is represented by ministers within the present government.

Given this history and the present unstable state of affairs, I can easily understand why the Israeli government has declined the request to extradite Mr Morel.

[JimBob]

Adrian-Care to actually quote the Polish ministers? Germans killed Jews in the 1940's does that mean they are anti-semites now? You cite example of anti-semitism from 60 years ago, what about today.

Even in the 1980s, the leaders of Solidarity were portrayed as a 'non-Polish' element, i.e. a Jewish clique.

Who did that characterizing? People who were against Solidarity, namely hardline Communists. Are we really going to put the words of Communists in everyone's mouths? Besides Solidarity was a popularly supported organization, so obviously people didn't give a damn about it being a "Jewish Clique"


@Krook-It is likely that there is an element of religious preferance involved, but what is the statue of limitation in Isreal for the crime he would be charged with. If it is up then there is nothing that anyone can do and he beat the law, sorry.

[cegorach]

[QUOTE=Adrian II]

Jan T. Gross is a respected Polish-born historian, formerly with the University of New York and presently with Princeton University.

BUt he is using JOURNALIST'S methods - he likes not to veryfy the data. Uses HIS OWN estimates. Generally takes unbalanced and biased point of view. It wasn't so bad in the 'Neighbours', but is terrible in the 'Fear...'.

In 2001 Professor Gross published the widely acclaimed book Neighbors: The Destruction of the Jewish Community in Jedwabne, Poland. The book describes the slaughter of the Jewabne Jews in 1941 by their fellow Poles as the Nazis watched approvingly.

HOWEVER:

He is most famous for his work on the Jedwabne massacre, Neighbors (2001), which argued that the massacre was conducted by Poles and not by the German occupiers, as previously assumed. The results were the subject of vigorous debate in Poland, and later have been supported, in part, by Institute of National Remembrance. However, the Institute estimated that the number of victims was about 380, based on its own investigation of the massacre site. This number was considered to be the lower bound for the number of victims, and it is lower than the 1,600 victims claimed in Gross' book, which he obtained from his estimates for the Jewish population of Jedwabne in 1941 and assuming that almost all were killed in the pogrom. In spite of those contrary results from those he extrapolated from an existing population figure,Gross has not changed the number of victims in the further editions of his book. Further investigations exposed that Jedwabne had not been the only town in which such pogroms took place.

I call this nothing more as unprofessional. Despite DETAILED research which is not questioned by anybody and fully approved he sticks to his point of view. What is that ?
I call that nothing else as bias.

Recently Professor Gross published another book: Fear: Anti-Semitism in Poland after Auschwitz: An Essay in Historical Interpretation (2006). It deals with the large-scale post-war persecution of Jews in Poland, notably in the form of pogroms, incuding the infamous one at Kielze (one year after the war) which was already on record as having been the bloodiest pogrom of the whole century in all of Europe. It details how Poles from all walks of life persecuted the Holocaust survivors, and how Church leaders and the Communist leadership refused to stop the pogroms, massacres and plundering of Jews. Gross argues that Anti-Semitism became a common currency between the Communists and a Polish society which had broadly participated in the Nazi campaign against the Jews, and for whom the Holocaust survivors were a standing reproach.

Yes he ARGUES. He is a professor of sociology and uses journalists' methods and his point of view is affected by his experience - of those dimwitted, primitivites spurred by the Party to purge their inter-Party opposition.

He makes several mistakes e.g. placing the Communists with the Church on the same side and offends all the Poles telling that they did little during the war from apparent wide-spread anti-semitism. That is TAINTED- why ?

1. He describes the Communists as anti-semitic. Whisch is curious since numerous party leaders on exposed positions were JEWS. It was STALIN'S decision of course - 'divide and rule' - to play one ethnical group against another, however there were situations where Jews persecuted Jews, or even staranger - Jews persecuted Poles for helping other Jews ( entire Zegota organisation). The problem was simple - the Communists used all means to instill their position - massive terror or exploiting the most primitive and cruel emotions - if anti-semitism worked for some, they welcomed it.

2. He creates some strange class of the society calling it 'intelligentsia' or similar where he throws ALL opposing anti-semitism or simply helping Jews.
THE problem is that the people were in the CHURCH, also in the PARTY (though much LESS) and generally everywhere.
Why does he do it ?
I don't know, but maybe the 'pretty' picture of the anti-semitic Church wouldn't work with men like cardinal Wyszynski or others who risked their lives saving Jews ?

The pogroms after the war are among the darkest hours of the Polish history, though should the whole society be marked by the crimes of the margin ?

There was notable indifference in behaviour towards those who survived, but that was rather simple EVERYONE lost someone, Poland lost 1/3 of its citizens including 20 % of those of the Polish nationality and was STILL occupied.

Gross makes one most terrible mistake - blames everyone taking the old 'Poles are voracious anti-semitic' slant out of a closet.
I can't be greateful for that, though if this gives me the opportunity to debate the topic now I can at least react to the offense, good since I have spent years combating the anti-semitism and this will be a welcome change - anti-polonism is little different after all.

After the post-war pogroms and persecution, about 100.00 Jews were left in Poland. Many of them emigrated in the wake of yet more antisemitic campaigns in 1956 and 1968. Even in the 1980s, the leaders of Solidarity were portrayed as a 'non-Polish' element, i.e. a Jewish clique. Since 1991, leaders like Kwasniewski and Lech Walesa have spoken out against antisemitism. Its prevalence and acceptability in Polish politics have decreased, but it is still a considerable political force that is represented by ministers within the present government.

State run campaigns. Besides it was more the result of inter-Party struggle, than another reason to say that Poland is anti-semitic.

I welcome the change - earlier Polish ministers were openly anti-semitic, now they only represent the point of view...
Little, but progress nonetheless.

Back to the topic. Anti-semitism is as old as the presence of the Jews in Poland i.e. 1000 long, older than the Christianisty itself since Jews were here first. BUT it always has been the margin of the society with a couple of exceptions during the whole history.
I don't need to point out that the majority of the Jews in the world lived in Poland which would be strange for anti-semitic country.
Anyway - a form of political slant from the margin of the political struggle cannot be seen as the wide-acceptance of anti-semitism.
It didn't help in stoping the 'Solidarity', neither KOR and other opposition organisations, even with clearly of Jewish origin people such like Michnik or Geremek. Michnik's 'Gazeta Wyborcza' is the largest daily here and there are none anti-semitic graffiti on the buildings of Agora company its publisher.
Another man of Jewish origin Kuron - is clearly one of the real HEROES of the opposition and post-communist transformation and noone really even cares to throw his origin as the slant.
That is most enjoyable that several most respected men here are of Jewish origin - in APPARENTLY anti-semitic country...

The last anti-semitic president candidate (not too open anti-semitic, though - not like the NPD in Germany or similar in the western Europe) got 0,32 % of votes.
Honestly anti-semitism virtually guarantees political DEATH here.

The populist leaders which were taken to the government by the ruling conservative Law and Justice cannot actually be called anti-semitic - they know that commiting a political suicide is not the best way to grasp some power.
Not my most favourite men, honestly I despise them, thoguh I cannot call them anti-semitic - actually even as anti-populist slant it would be far to different from the reality. I really must regret, it would be the easiest way to thow them to the political rubbish bin.
Sure the latest local elections shown that the conservative Law and Justice (I am conservative-liberal so not my most favourite too) ate the little parties alive and did it with CLEARLY philo-semitic leaders. WEIRD ? Or perhaps, just perhaps the stereotypical anti-semitism in Poland isn't so meaningful ?

Given this history and the present unstable state of affairs, I can easily understand why the Israeli government has declined the request to extradite Mr Morel.

What is the unstability you are talking about ?
You are base your insult on some rumours, underhand insults and similar.
Do you think that every Dutchman is satan-worshipping pedophile who would kill his own mather ?

It is the same kind of prejudice YOU are using. Should I consider Dutch courts as biased in pedophile crimes area ? Should I say that they cannot be trusted since there is an organisation which openly fights for legalising this perverted idea ?
You are using a slanted point of view - that because on the margin of the Polish politics there are idiots who are using anti-semitic slogans Polish courst cannot be trusted and portray the WHOLE country, the whole apparently 'unstable'
state of affairs as ANTI-SEMITIC !

IN other words Poland is anti-semitic country, perhaps also a 'bloddthirsty, imperialist regime sucking Jeiwsh blood' ?
These are words which can be expected from anti-Polish extremists which unfortunatelly do EXIST, but should I blame a state which harbours such extremists as well ? Should I call the country which allows them to spread such bias as anti-Polish ?

[Adrian II]

In other words Poland is anti-semitic country, perhaps also a 'bloddthirsty, imperialist regime sucking Jeiwsh blood'?

Lol. Shall we skip the rhetoric, my friend?

I have given you the information you required on Polish pogroms during the war. The Jedwabne massacre was established not by journalists but by a Polish government commission. Instead of addressing the issue, you squabble about the exact number of victims. This is typical for people in a state of denial about their history.

The commission's report concluded that 'The incomplete scope of the exhumation work and the impossibility to verify the hypothesis that a grave or collective graves exist at the Jewish cemetery do not allow one to substantiate the number of all individuals killed on the day of the events in Jedwabne.'

However, it is not the exact number that counts, it is the fact that as soon as the Germans approached, Polish inhabitants from a wide area gathered in Jedwabne in order to kill all the Jewish inhabitants. Read the descriptions of the ugly scenes, the intentional and studied way in which the Jews were herded together, humiliated, abused and killed in a day-long orgy. Then tell me - does it really matter, in the larger frame of things, whether they succeeded in killing them all?

I don't know if you are religious, but your attitude seems typical of the Polish Catholic Church. Poland's Catholic primate, Cardinal Jozef Glemp, at first denied the Jedwabne massacre. After the commission issued its findings and he couldn't deny it any longer, he called it 'a local tragedy'. When he couldn't maintain that either in view of other findings, he compared it to Katyn (where Polish officers were killed by Stalin’s troops) and 'Palestine', as if to say: see, we are all guilty of the same crimes, Jews included. And finally, he was more concerned with the image it projected abroad than about the issue itself when he deplored the upcoming English translation of Gross' book: 'Today, the release of its English-language version is being awaited with anxiety, because the truth thereby revealed to Americans is expected to unleash Jewry’s sharp attacks on Poles.'

There you go, the truth about a Polish attack on Jews is twisted into a Jewish attack on Poles. This reminds me of a funny remark by Polish-Israeli author Henryk Broder that antisemites have more trouble with the Holocaust than Jews. They want to both affirm and deny it, all at the same time. 'Oi, the trouble the antisemites have with Auschwitz!'

I referred you to Polish pogroms after the war, to the antisemitic campaigns in 1956, 1968 and in the 1980's. In the light of the above it is no surprise that there is still a considerable problem of antisemitism in Polish society. As late as 1999, the European Commission against Racism and Intolerance (Council of Europe) issued a human rights report with the following conclusion:

ECRI noted that changing patterns of migration had also brought new challenges, but that Poland remained a society in which the issues of racism, xenophobia, antisemitism and intolerance were still relatively unacknowledged: the legislation in the field was insufficiently implemented, and the introduction of legislative provisions dealing explicitly with national and ethnic minorities was proving slow to realise. The general attitude of society seemed rather closed, towards difference, and feelings of antisemitism remained pervasive. The report adds that there appeared to be little concrete knowledge or monitoring of the extent and manifestations of racism and discrimination within society, which in turn meant that specific measures to combat these phenomenon were often lacking in various fields.

A notable recent incident concerns the Catholic radio station Radio Maryja (approximately 3 million listeners) with links to the governing Law and Order party. One of its commentators called restitution efforts by Polish Jews 'extortion', he belittled the Holocaust and accused 'Judeans' of 'sneaking up from the back, trying to force our government to pay protection money, concealing that fact by calling it a compensation.'

This is why the supposed case against Mr Morel is so highly politicised. Let us face it, my friend. Many Poles would love to get their hands on Mr Morel, guilty or not, in order to be able to say: 'Look, Jews were mass-murderers, too. Our father in heaven, are we absolved now?'

Israel, of course, will not play along.

[cegorach]

[QUOTE=Adrian II]

Lol. Shall we skip the rhetoric, my friend?

If I see the same from your side of course. But you won't ? Or perhaps you will start with apologising instead of impairing the professionalism of Polish courts and using anti-semitic taunting so often.

I have given you the information you required on Polish pogroms during the war. The Jedwabne massacre was established not by journalists but by a Polish government commission. Instead of addressing the issue, you squabble about the exact number of victims. This is typical for people in a state of denial about their history.

Of course I addressed the issue in the second part of my latest answer. Read again. Do not offend me framing me in 'history revisionism' cathegory.
I question his reliability, his skills not the very fact.
I have the feeling you did write the last sentence only to offend me.

The commission's report concluded that 'The incomplete scope of the exhumation work and the impossibility to verify the hypothesis that a grave or collective graves exist at the Jewish cemetery do not allow one to substantiate the number of all individuals killed on the day of the events in Jedwabne.'

Yes, but it is much more reliable than Grosse's estimates based on nothing more than his own idea. NOONE before counted such large number of victims - that includes all other sources. Shall I provide you with the list of other authors and their estimates ? That of course included Jewish ones, though there is no conflict between some sort of extreme estimates, there is just a difference between reliability and 'happy guessing'.

However, it is not the exact number that counts, it is the fact that as soon as the Germans approached, Polish inhabitants from a wide area gathered in Jedwabne in order to kill all the Jewish inhabitants. Read the descriptions of the ugly scenes, the intentional and studied way in which the Jews were herded together, humiliated, abused and killed in a day-long orgy. Then tell me - does it really matter, in the larger frame of things, whether they succeeded in killing them all?

DO NOT treat me as some sort of Polish nationalist. That is offensive. The graphic descriptions of the terrible fate of those people has nothing to the real topic.

Shall I add other descriptions of horrible crimes which have happened during the war. The people were lynched by their neighbours and that is horrible, of course it is, but it is NO REASON to frame the entire nation. As even Mr. Gross claims it happened only in Podlasie region where those Jews were made scapegoats for collaboration with the Soviets.
That was primitive mob blaming the strangers for their sufferings.
Yes, strangers since different nationalities lived close to each other, but not together - were often alien to each other.
It was the direct result of some level of anti-semitism present in every country with any Jewish community augmented and channeled by the intentional policy of the Soviets to play on nationality against each other - Belorussians and Ukrainians were played against Poles for example - with additional German support after 22nd June 1941. Poles were the primary target of Soviet cleansings in the area just like Jews in German-run sector.
Similar tactic was used by the Germans, though more brutal approach of the Germans dismayed those few would-be-collaborators from supporting them to the level seen e.g. in Norway of France. Interesting there is none similar events in German section, though the number of Jews was considerably higher. Why ? I have explained I believe.
The perpetrators should be find if still alive, but it doesn't change the simple fact that Poland in general was not anti-semitic, especially during the war.
Even workers for the death camp services (those employed) had to be transported from Ukraine and the Baltic states, since not enough people could be found in the entire 'anti-semitic' Poland.

I don't know if you are religious, but your attitude seems typical of the Polish Catholic Church. Poland's Catholic primate, Cardinal Jozef Glemp, at first denied the Jedwabne massacre. After the commission issued its findings and he couldn't deny it any longer, he called it 'a local tragedy'. When he couldn't maintain that either in view of other findings, he compared it to Katyn (where Polish officers were killed by Stalin’s troops) and 'Palestine', as if to say: see, we are all guilty of the same crimes, Jews included. And finally, he was more concerned with the image it projected abroad than about the issue itself when he deplored the upcoming English translation of Gross' book: 'Today, the release of its English-language version is being awaited with anxiety, because the truth thereby revealed to Americans is expected to unleash Jewry’s sharp attacks on Poles.'

Please do not throw religion to the discussion now, since I think that many people mstake it with bigotry and some sort of religious xenophoby.
The Polish Catholic Church is quite decentralised, actually. And don't you forget that:

1. Discussion about events like in Jedwabne was non-existent in Poland after 1945. That is a good thing Mr. Gross addressed the topic in the first place, though it is rather the opposite when it comes to his latest work where he choses a different approach.

2. 'The victimhood' was not only used in Israel, but also in Poland, even by the Communists who tried to gain some support, that is why the cases of those purges or other disgusting crimes were not discussed.
It is still hard to shake the legacy.
Mr.Glemp actually seems to back the 'victimhood' which is narrowminded, but hardly unique to Poland.

Finally the it is almost 'hardcoded' in Polish nationality to think about ourselves in the wider sense i.e. how the world would react to that ?
Not without good reasons.
There were and still are many myths about Polish history and Poland in general. Many have been eliminated, but numerous still exist. It is hard to counter some since these are often believed to be true by so many.
So called 'genetical' anti-semitism is one of those. It is one of the most offensive insults, that is why Polish newspapers and foreign services react so often to the smallest remarks about 'Polish death camps' present in the foreign press.
There is the methaphor to describe Poland as the 'peacock of the nations' - simply we DO CARE what other people will think and some officials react by denial, unfortaunatelly Gelp is one of them, though I might just add that his position was pretty low since the real head of the Polish Church was better known John Paul II , Glemp was just a clerk and should stay with the administrative work he is good at.

There you go, the truth about a Polish attack on Jews is twisted into a Jewish attack on Poles. This reminds me of a funny remark by Polish-Israeli author Henryk Broder that antisemites have more trouble with the Holocaust than Jews. They want to both affirm and deny it, all at the same time. 'Oi, the trouble the antisemites have with Auschwitz!'

NOw you clearly got carried away, didn't you ?
To call me , ME as than anti-semite is like... I don't really have a comparision. I am clearly philo=semitic spending much time defending Israel - I can give you links, though the discussion is in Polish. Also in the Lords forum I have started not less than three topics about the links between Poles and Jews, since it is far less known than the usual 'anti-semitic' taunting.

NO, I do see the widepicture. Analise the sources, there are numerous present in English now, you will find that ethnic tension was the usual approach of the Stalinist regimes to the question of keeping the subjects under controll.
That is why you will find so many Latvians or Poles in Soviet CHk and later NKVD - to cause the hatred in the Soviet Union. Of course Jews were here as well, since Russian anti-semitism is most likely the strongest in the world.

I referred you to Polish pogroms after the war, to the antisemitic campaigns in 1956, 1968 and in the 1980's. In the light of the above it is no surprise that there is still a considerable problem of antisemitism in Polish society. As late as 1999, the European Commission against Racism and Intolerance (Council of Europe) issued a human rights report with the following conclusion:

ECRI noted that changing patterns of migration had also brought new challenges, but that Poland remained a society in which the issues of racism, xenophobia, antisemitism and intolerance were still relatively unacknowledged: the legislation in the field was insufficiently implemented, and the introduction of legislative provisions dealing explicitly with national and ethnic minorities was proving slow to realise. The general attitude of society seemed rather closed, towards difference, and feelings of antisemitism remained pervasive. The report adds that there appeared to be little concrete knowledge or monitoring of the extent and manifestations of racism and discrimination within society, which in turn meant that specific measures to combat these phenomenon were often lacking in various fields.

Great, anti-semitism is present as I have written BEFORE several times, but present in the margin of the society.
The facts are pretty simple - you have no anti-semitic attacks in Poland (about one year ago there was one with the head rabbi sprayed by some moron, but it is something virtually unknown), skinhead movement is very weak, fascist undeground (are illegal as communists) can hardly mobilise themselves for anything .

Simply Polish society now is virtually unified, the ethnic and national minorities are very small.
It is more xenophobia channelled by some populism traits than anything.

Anti-semitism itself is reduced to verbal forms and those getting fewer.

A notable recent incident concerns the Catholic radio station Radio Maryja (approximately 3 million listeners) with links to the governing Law and Order party. One of its commentators called restitution efforts by Polish Jews 'extortion', he belittled the Holocaust and accused 'Judeans' of 'sneaking up from the back, trying to force our government to pay protection money, concealing that fact by calling it a compensation.'

Ehh, great Radio Maryja. This is trylly extreme wing of the church, though represents a small minority.
I am not sure what you are talking about, but it is either one of the listeners who are free to call the radio ( as far as the USA - some are extreme...) or one of the people who works for that bastion of ignorance.

Actually it is more complicated - the links to the Law and Justice are such that the leaders of the party ( who are suprisingly philo-semites...) played the card of the radiostation to undermine extreme-conservative ( anti-EU etc) LPR its coalition partner and the latest 'breakfast'.

The radio is not even under the controll of the Polish church, but of the redemptionists Order which responds directly to Vatican. About one year ago it was brough under the surveillance of a special commision and the as far as I know any anti-semitic remarks were ended.
I remember trying to listen to this once to find out what the hell is it and I really was dismayed with the level of ignorance and anti-EU sentiments, through the remarks of the preachers of hatred present in German press are exaggerated and simplified - it is adressed to extreme-conservative parts of the society, mostly old people who belive that the EU is the nest of moral degeneration.
If I was not for the total freedom (except riot preaching) of expression I would say it should be banned, but for now it is good it is under constant controll, its super-conservative rhetoric faded and will continue to do so, the EU is not the 'great satan' some listeners were made to believe.

This is why the supposed case against Mr Morel is so highly politicised. Let us face it, my friend. Many Poles would love to get their hands on Mr Morel, guilty or not, in order to be able to say: 'Look, Jews were mass-murderers, too. Our father in heaven, are we absolved now?'
Israel, of course, will not play along.

Disgusting.
You are calling Poles anti-semitic bigots now.

May I remind you that Polish courts are not run by skinheads ? Yes, some judges are bald, but it is hardly voluntary...

For now you have thrown some wacky arguments of Polish anti-semitism, one extreme radiostation, verbal anti-semitism present in some circles, cases of denial or too stubborn defense + some purges and pogroms which happened somewhere in the past.

Tell me how the case could be politicised if I have learnt about it from Krook's initial post. I am reading newspapers 3 times per week and so far I have't seen a single remark, at least I don't remmeber any...


Finally how a country with apparently so biased courts can be in the EU, European Council, UN and other organisations ?
I am working in Human Rights area and I don't remember anyone questioning that... how strange...

If Poland is the nest of anti-semitism, bigotry, extreme nationalism and run by skinheaded KKK witchhunters how could it be that we are together with the Netherlands in the EU ?

[Fragony]

If Poland is the nest of anti-semitism, bigotry, extreme nationalism and run by skinheaded KKK witchhunters how could it be that we are together with the Netherlands in the EU ?

Must be the lufka's. God I love it when AdrianII makes friends, annoy a pole, mention Jedwabne, always works

[cegorach]

Hmmm poles are hard to annoy...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:S...-1-Cropped.jpg

[Fragony]

Hmmm poles are hard to annoy...

Mind if I try?

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP7.HTM

All that genocide, you guys never thought about quiting?

[CrossLOPER]

Posting in thread that, in any other forum on the internets, would have broken into one of the most awesome bouts of insult.

[Stig]

Aye we had a discussion about it before Tarrak closed it because of clear nationalism and hate.
And because someone (a Pole, obviously) called me a nazi, because I disagreed to him

But good link Fragsy
*applauds*
I must remember that one, might come in use some time

[cegorach]

Mind if I try?

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP7.HTM

All that genocide, you guys never thought about quiting?

Totally useless. The number of deaths among the 'expelled' is (according to the German state commision) around 40 000 ( I would have to check the last Saturday 'Rzeczpospolita' for the name of that commision) , if that is all what you can throw... it is... amusing...



@Stig

Aye we had a discussion about it before Tarrak closed it because of clear nationalism and hate.
And because someone (a Pole, obviously) called me a nazi, because I disagreed to him

In this thread ? I can't see such remarks...

[Fragony]

if that is all what you can throw... it is... amusing...

No, it's annoying. Told you I could do it.