Israel is protecting war (ww2)criminal accused of genocide

[cegorach]

[QUOTE=Adrian II]

Jan T. Gross is a respected Polish-born historian, formerly with the University of New York and presently with Princeton University.

BUt he is using JOURNALIST'S methods - he likes not to veryfy the data. Uses HIS OWN estimates. Generally takes unbalanced and biased point of view. It wasn't so bad in the 'Neighbours', but is terrible in the 'Fear...'.

In 2001 Professor Gross published the widely acclaimed book Neighbors: The Destruction of the Jewish Community in Jedwabne, Poland. The book describes the slaughter of the Jewabne Jews in 1941 by their fellow Poles as the Nazis watched approvingly.

HOWEVER:

He is most famous for his work on the Jedwabne massacre, Neighbors (2001), which argued that the massacre was conducted by Poles and not by the German occupiers, as previously assumed. The results were the subject of vigorous debate in Poland, and later have been supported, in part, by Institute of National Remembrance. However, the Institute estimated that the number of victims was about 380, based on its own investigation of the massacre site. This number was considered to be the lower bound for the number of victims, and it is lower than the 1,600 victims claimed in Gross' book, which he obtained from his estimates for the Jewish population of Jedwabne in 1941 and assuming that almost all were killed in the pogrom. In spite of those contrary results from those he extrapolated from an existing population figure,Gross has not changed the number of victims in the further editions of his book. Further investigations exposed that Jedwabne had not been the only town in which such pogroms took place.

I call this nothing more as unprofessional. Despite DETAILED research which is not questioned by anybody and fully approved he sticks to his point of view. What is that ?
I call that nothing else as bias.

Recently Professor Gross published another book: Fear: Anti-Semitism in Poland after Auschwitz: An Essay in Historical Interpretation (2006). It deals with the large-scale post-war persecution of Jews in Poland, notably in the form of pogroms, incuding the infamous one at Kielze (one year after the war) which was already on record as having been the bloodiest pogrom of the whole century in all of Europe. It details how Poles from all walks of life persecuted the Holocaust survivors, and how Church leaders and the Communist leadership refused to stop the pogroms, massacres and plundering of Jews. Gross argues that Anti-Semitism became a common currency between the Communists and a Polish society which had broadly participated in the Nazi campaign against the Jews, and for whom the Holocaust survivors were a standing reproach.

Yes he ARGUES. He is a professor of sociology and uses journalists' methods and his point of view is affected by his experience - of those dimwitted, primitivites spurred by the Party to purge their inter-Party opposition.

He makes several mistakes e.g. placing the Communists with the Church on the same side and offends all the Poles telling that they did little during the war from apparent wide-spread anti-semitism. That is TAINTED- why ?

1. He describes the Communists as anti-semitic. Whisch is curious since numerous party leaders on exposed positions were JEWS. It was STALIN'S decision of course - 'divide and rule' - to play one ethnical group against another, however there were situations where Jews persecuted Jews, or even staranger - Jews persecuted Poles for helping other Jews ( entire Zegota organisation). The problem was simple - the Communists used all means to instill their position - massive terror or exploiting the most primitive and cruel emotions - if anti-semitism worked for some, they welcomed it.

2. He creates some strange class of the society calling it 'intelligentsia' or similar where he throws ALL opposing anti-semitism or simply helping Jews.
THE problem is that the people were in the CHURCH, also in the PARTY (though much LESS) and generally everywhere.
Why does he do it ?
I don't know, but maybe the 'pretty' picture of the anti-semitic Church wouldn't work with men like cardinal Wyszynski or others who risked their lives saving Jews ?

The pogroms after the war are among the darkest hours of the Polish history, though should the whole society be marked by the crimes of the margin ?

There was notable indifference in behaviour towards those who survived, but that was rather simple EVERYONE lost someone, Poland lost 1/3 of its citizens including 20 % of those of the Polish nationality and was STILL occupied.

Gross makes one most terrible mistake - blames everyone taking the old 'Poles are voracious anti-semitic' slant out of a closet.
I can't be greateful for that, though if this gives me the opportunity to debate the topic now I can at least react to the offense, good since I have spent years combating the anti-semitism and this will be a welcome change - anti-polonism is little different after all.

After the post-war pogroms and persecution, about 100.00 Jews were left in Poland. Many of them emigrated in the wake of yet more antisemitic campaigns in 1956 and 1968. Even in the 1980s, the leaders of Solidarity were portrayed as a 'non-Polish' element, i.e. a Jewish clique. Since 1991, leaders like Kwasniewski and Lech Walesa have spoken out against antisemitism. Its prevalence and acceptability in Polish politics have decreased, but it is still a considerable political force that is represented by ministers within the present government.

State run campaigns. Besides it was more the result of inter-Party struggle, than another reason to say that Poland is anti-semitic.

I welcome the change - earlier Polish ministers were openly anti-semitic, now they only represent the point of view...
Little, but progress nonetheless.

Back to the topic. Anti-semitism is as old as the presence of the Jews in Poland i.e. 1000 long, older than the Christianisty itself since Jews were here first. BUT it always has been the margin of the society with a couple of exceptions during the whole history.
I don't need to point out that the majority of the Jews in the world lived in Poland which would be strange for anti-semitic country.
Anyway - a form of political slant from the margin of the political struggle cannot be seen as the wide-acceptance of anti-semitism.
It didn't help in stoping the 'Solidarity', neither KOR and other opposition organisations, even with clearly of Jewish origin people such like Michnik or Geremek. Michnik's 'Gazeta Wyborcza' is the largest daily here and there are none anti-semitic graffiti on the buildings of Agora company its publisher.
Another man of Jewish origin Kuron - is clearly one of the real HEROES of the opposition and post-communist transformation and noone really even cares to throw his origin as the slant.
That is most enjoyable that several most respected men here are of Jewish origin - in APPARENTLY anti-semitic country...

The last anti-semitic president candidate (not too open anti-semitic, though - not like the NPD in Germany or similar in the western Europe) got 0,32 % of votes.
Honestly anti-semitism virtually guarantees political DEATH here.

The populist leaders which were taken to the government by the ruling conservative Law and Justice cannot actually be called anti-semitic - they know that commiting a political suicide is not the best way to grasp some power.
Not my most favourite men, honestly I despise them, thoguh I cannot call them anti-semitic - actually even as anti-populist slant it would be far to different from the reality. I really must regret, it would be the easiest way to thow them to the political rubbish bin.
Sure the latest local elections shown that the conservative Law and Justice (I am conservative-liberal so not my most favourite too) ate the little parties alive and did it with CLEARLY philo-semitic leaders. WEIRD ? Or perhaps, just perhaps the stereotypical anti-semitism in Poland isn't so meaningful ?

Given this history and the present unstable state of affairs, I can easily understand why the Israeli government has declined the request to extradite Mr Morel.

What is the unstability you are talking about ?
You are base your insult on some rumours, underhand insults and similar.
Do you think that every Dutchman is satan-worshipping pedophile who would kill his own mather ?

It is the same kind of prejudice YOU are using. Should I consider Dutch courts as biased in pedophile crimes area ? Should I say that they cannot be trusted since there is an organisation which openly fights for legalising this perverted idea ?
You are using a slanted point of view - that because on the margin of the Polish politics there are idiots who are using anti-semitic slogans Polish courst cannot be trusted and portray the WHOLE country, the whole apparently 'unstable'
state of affairs as ANTI-SEMITIC !

IN other words Poland is anti-semitic country, perhaps also a 'bloddthirsty, imperialist regime sucking Jeiwsh blood' ?
These are words which can be expected from anti-Polish extremists which unfortunatelly do EXIST, but should I blame a state which harbours such extremists as well ? Should I call the country which allows them to spread such bias as anti-Polish ?