Units not in the game that should be?

[lancelot]

Good day forumites...A quick question for you history buffs.

Are there any unit types that are currently not in the game that most certainly should be? Especially regarding the Byzantines...

Cheers.

[econ21]

[Armchair historian mode on]

The Byzantines lack a kind of heavy spearman (skutatoi?) - big round shield, long spear, mail vest. They protected the foot archers and formed a base for the cavalry-heavy Byzantine army.

In the same vein - and fully filling the same function on the battlefield - the English really need a "spear" armed dismounted knight (or rather one with a cut down lance). It was the ability of these chaps to see off a cavalry charge that made the French knights start to dismount over the course of the HYW - as indeed other English knights routinely did in the Wars of the Roses.

These are the two big omissions that strike me, because they have such a major (and perverse) effect on the relative strengths and weaknesses of the armies concerned. It's strange why CA model the Byzantines and English as being weak at receiving a cavalry charge, as this was one of the things they had evolved to excel at (providing the base necessary for their archers to be effective against powerful cavalry-heavy foes).

I guess the omission stems from the artificial sword vs spear "rock-paper-scissors" thing TW has going. In reality, the skutatoi and anti-cav English men-at-arms were not distinct units from the sword-armed Byzantine infantry and dismounted English knights depicted in the game. Medieval melee troops usually had spears/polearms and swords (and often more), and could switch between them as desired.

[Armchair historian mode off]

[lars573]

Byzantine spearmen are close to Skutatoi. Close as your gonna get without modding. Funning thing is I've seen 2 descriptions of Skutatoi 1 has them wearing textile armour with a felt helemt. The other has them with a lamellar cuirass between 2 textile layers.

The only thing I see them missing is Stratiotai. Which I think I saw in the Venician roster.

[lancelot]

Interesting info, thanks.

Whats the deal woth Stratiotai?

Also what happened to that Pronoial ailagion unit (sp???) from MTW1?

I remember someone ages ago mentioning Tagmata...is that a formation or a unit?

[lars573]

Stratiotai are post 4th crusade kataphractoi/lancers.

Tagmata were an evolution of the Comitetenses and Palantinae forces. They full time soldiers stationed around Constantinople. Each was about 4000 (on average but the varation was given as 1000-6000) strong. There were about 6-8 each of cavalry and infantry. I've read 3 articles about and each translated the name "Tagmata" as a different modern formation. Battalion, regiment, and brigade were all used. I'd use regiment or brigade personally.

As for Pronoial ailagion I think that much like the schimitar swinging tunic wearing byz-inf from MTW they tossed it. But the description of the new Byz-cav ascribes those men as having pronoial land grants, the new byz-inf too.

[IrishArmenian]

Lowland nobles for the Scots. They have Highland Nobles, so why not Lowland ones? Lowland Nobles of course, would fight in a much different way, as they had contact with other forms of warfare (Welsh, Norman, etc.)

[Furious Mental]

War wagons. They were mentioned in an IGN preview but from what I can tell are absent from the game.

[Bullethead]

Lowland nobles for the Scots. They have Highland Nobles, so why not Lowland ones? Lowland Nobles of course, would fight in a much different way, as they had contact with other forms of warfare (Welsh, Norman, etc.)

In my family tree, at least, "Lowland Noble" translates as a sheep-rustling, thatch-burning Border reiver with a larger gang of thugs than most of his neighbors and a small stone tower to live and stash his loot in. Getting more than a couple such men together in close proximity rarely worked out for the good, because most were at perpetual blood feud with their peers. So I can see not having units of these guys but just Border cav units, each one representing one "noble's" gang.

[slav frunze]

War wagons. They were mentioned in an IGN preview but from what I can tell are absent from the game.

I second that.

[Kansas Bear]

In my family tree, at least, "Lowland Noble" translates as a sheep-rustling, thatch-burning Border reiver with a larger gang of thugs than most of his neighbors and a small stone tower to live and stash his loot in. Getting more than a couple such men together in close proximity rarely worked out for the good, because most were at perpetual blood feud with their peers. So I can see not having units of these guys but just Border cav units, each one representing one "noble's" gang.

As descended from a border clan myself....
From George MacDonald Fraser's book, "The Steel Bonnets". Most border clans had invoked a "hot trod" to recover stolen cattle/property. Commonly using cavalry(of the light variation) to hunt down the reivers.

[Burakius]

Legendary generals. Im talking Saladin, Fatih Sultan Mehmed, Richard Lionheart, Vladimir Dracula etc. That kind of stuff.

And maybe some extra units. ( cant think up of extra units)

[Spendius]

+1 for legendary generals/kings/crusaders. Joan of Arc, Charles Martel, Du Guesclin, Godfroy de Bouillon...

[anders]

the point about spear-armed english knights is good, from what ive read they used short spears, and indeed, without spears, how could they receive french cavalry charges with any luck?

[lars573]

What I usually hear, ad infintium, is that by the 13th century when a knight dismounted he forsook any sort of spear for a pole-axe. A great all rounder weapon. Capable of fighting cavalry, including recieve the charge. Dismounted English knights have such pole-axes.

[Spendius]

I miss naphta throwers (didn't play/fight the moors, maybe there are some ?)

[lars573]

This time they are only for Muslim factions, and called Naffatun.

[Werner]

Is it just me or did they forget to put Japan and China into M2TW? Where are the Huns? It seems kind of mysterious as to why their no where to be found. China had a crazy kind of cross bowman during the middle ages called a Chu Ko Nu that could shoot multiple bolts at once. They were short ranged weapons but could decimate legions of troops that were advancing. I also miss the large mass of different unique mercenary units you could find throughout the lands, maybe I just havent found the right place but I can only seem to recruit mercenary spearmen/crossbowmen/frankish knights. Where are the woodsmen and barbarians with the taunt special abilities? I miss this from RTW

As for special characters:
William Wallace, Genghis Khan, Barbarossa, Attila the Hun, El Cid

[lars573]

Kerns and Gallowglasses are in Scotland and Ireland. Welsh longbowmen and speamen too. In the low countries you can get Flemish pikemen, Swiss pikemen in Switzerland. Bulgarian brigands are all over the balkans, slav spearmen and archers as well. Alan cavalry, Cuman horse, Turkomans, Armenian cavalry, and archers in Asia minor. You can recruit some crusader units without a crusade around Rome. These are the none generic mercs I've come across.

[Spendius]

I want the mighty knights who say Ni !

[Rameusb5]

+1 for legendary generals/kings/crusaders. Joan of Arc, Charles Martel, Du Guesclin, Godfroy de Bouillon...

While I also would like to see "legendary" characters pop up, Charles Martel died about 300 years before this game's time period. He was Charlemagne's Grandfather.


He was also probably the most influental person in Western History. Without him, Christianity would be a long lost (or extremely minor) religion.

[Kraxis]

Is it just me or did they forget to put Japan and China into M2TW? Where are the Huns?

Well... Why weren't all of Asia and Africa in Rome? Constraints on the gameworld... as simple as that.
And what goes to the Huns... I don't think that people who were around in the 3-400s will fit too well.

The Pronoiai Allagion from MTW are sorely missing in my opinion. They were the lighter, faster version of heavy cavalry for the Byzantines (compared to the Kataphracts). I suppose the Byz Lancers have been thrust into that position. But they can't match knights like the Pronoiai could. Like Feudal Knights these heavy cavalry were my favourites of MTW.

Aside from them I miss a heavy spearman unit. A units that can match all but the best melee infantry in... well melee. Of course it should be more expensive that those. Be they knights or sergeants or men at arms, I care not. But a spearunit that are a viable meleeunit is something I miss, as merc and armoured spears are simply not strong enough for my tastes. I guess I miss the Armoured Spearmen of VI and Gothic Sergeants of vanilla. They were perfect for my tastes.

Skutatoi... Hmm, yeah I guess I would like them.

[Whacker]

Well... Why weren't all of Asia and Africa in Rome? Constraints on the gameworld... as simple as that.

Constraints true, but he had a decent point buried in there. It *would* be nice to be able to create absolutely enormous campaign maps, bigger than the Mapus Mundi (sp?) mod for RTW. Being able to include all of Asia proper, europe, and northern africa would be utterly outstanding and make for a truly epic game. Of course this would affect the number of provinces, AI pathing, etc.. But it's still nice to dream.

On topic, units I'd like to see in game:

- Screaming naked cannibal whores
- Graal Knights
- Drive-by ballista wagons
- Hordes of rabid assault poodles
- Battlefield Ninjas
- Oliphaunts armed with cruise missiles
- All those other random fantasy units in the game that I thought were a lot of fun to use and added to the game variety but drove the purists absolutely batpoop insane.

/me runs like hell

[hsimoorb]

- Screaming naked cannibal whores
- Graal Knights
- Drive-by ballista wagons
- Hordes of rabid assault poodles
- Battlefield Ninjas
- Oliphaunts armed with cruise missiles
- All those other random fantasy units in the game that I thought were a lot of fun to use and added to the game variety but drove the purists absolutely batpoop insane.

-They came close enough in Alexander
-They did exactaly than in BI
-Again, didn't you get enough of the last expansion?
-What?
-They did that in STW, MTW, RTW, again in BI, and in M2TW(they have bows this time)
-Again, they came close enough
-OK, since when have the "purists" had ANY influence on this game?

[Grifman]

[Armchair historian mode on]

In the same vein - and fully filling the same function on the battlefield - the English really need a "spear" armed dismounted knight (or rather one with a cut down lance). It was the ability of these chaps to see off a cavalry charge that made the French knights start to dismount over the course of the HYW - as indeed other English knights routinely did in the Wars of the Roses.
[Armchair historian mode off]

The British do have this with some of their dismounted knight units that have polearms. The problem is that there is a bug where once the cavalry charge is over, they don't attack any more and get slaughtered. This should be fixed in the patch.

[Grifman]

Is it just me or did they forget to put Japan and China into M2TW? Where are the Huns? It seems kind of mysterious as to why their no where to be found.

It's just you. Because exactly when did the English, French or HRE fight the Chinese? I must have missed that part of my medieval history lesson. And the Huns were no longer around by 1080 - so you must have missed that part

[Shahed]

I would like to see Zirli Nefer type unit.

A Janissary special force squad, employing a variety of weapons. Different men having different weapons. Musketeers, Archers, Swordsmen, Polearms all in the same mix with different secondary weapons too.

Actually I'd like to see men at arms class (medium skill) units with different weapons, clubs, maces etc.

I'd like to see a lot more detail in the heraldry on all sides. It's beautiful already but it makes you hunger for more.

This is actually very easy to research. I can produce about 20 different Janissary heralds in about 10 minutes, probably less as it would take like 5 minutes of scanning, a minute of uploading, a minute of linkage and there you go. The same can be done for many, many of the units on all factions.

I'd also like to see more detail on the female figures OFC ... and more sounds ... more movies !!! :P

[GFX707]

What I don't understand is how some factions get gunpowder infantry and others don't....Scotland has no gunpowder infantry? France too? Maybe I just missed something.

[pansoiatr]

To lars:about tagmata and stratiotai(info from steven runciman`s byzantine civilization)
Tagmata were 4 diferent divisions
1.ikanatoi
2.vigla
3.exkuvitarii
4.sholes
Each numbered about 1500
The byzantine tactics in 8th-11th centure insisted on 8200 accompaning the emperor some of the came from the provinces and not from the tagmata
As for the stratiotai i think(not sure) they were lightly armoured troops used by the venetians mostly in the former byzantines towns and were mostly local greeks